Author Topic: Am I doing diplomacy wrong?  (Read 614 times)

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Offline Llamageddon (OP)

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Am I doing diplomacy wrong?
« on: October 16, 2020, 05:44:31 PM »
The first NPR I met I sent a diplomatic ship to. They were claiming the territory I was in and demanding I leave, my diplomatic rating was increasing though so I just left it sitting on top of some of their ships at the JG and eventually they sent their diplomatic vesel over to say hello. Now we both allow trade and they just suggest I leave. Relations are still improving.

I next found a system with two NPR's claiming it. If I move my diplomatic vessel to either NPR's fleets I just keep getting asked to leave and get no diplomacy increase. I've let time past in 5 day increments for about a month on one fleet. I didn't think you needed to find their diplomatic vessel to improve relations with them, just be seen by them and be able to see them. What am I doing wrong that I was doing right the first time?
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Offline DFNewb

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Re: Am I doing diplomacy wrong?
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2020, 05:47:53 PM »
I turn the transponder of my diplo ships on so the NPR's can always see them, I found that helps in 1.11
 

Offline Tikigod

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Re: Am I doing diplomacy wrong?
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2020, 06:59:20 PM »
The first NPR I met I sent a diplomatic ship to. They were claiming the territory I was in and demanding I leave, my diplomatic rating was increasing though so I just left it sitting on top of some of their ships at the JG and eventually they sent their diplomatic vesel over to say hello. Now we both allow trade and they just suggest I leave. Relations are still improving.

I next found a system with two NPR's claiming it. If I move my diplomatic vessel to either NPR's fleets I just keep getting asked to leave and get no diplomacy increase. I've let time past in 5 day increments for about a month on one fleet. I didn't think you needed to find their diplomatic vessel to improve relations with them, just be seen by them and be able to see them. What am I doing wrong that I was doing right the first time?

What are the  specifics of your 'diplomatic ship'?

If it has military graded components that the NPR picks up on they'll react much more negatively then if they detect a larger ship but which is clearly civilian.

You can find a proper break down of NPR reactions based on tonnage/military|Civilian and such in the C# development posts.
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Offline Llamageddon (OP)

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Re: Am I doing diplomacy wrong?
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2020, 07:34:28 PM »
I've given the changes posts on diplomacy a good read, I thought I had understood it as it worked first time. Now I don't get any message about increase in diplomatic rating and looking at the intelligence reports it shows that the rating isn't improving (it isn't decreasing either though).

Here is my diplomatic ship design in-case I have missed something, though it seems to be working fine on the other NPR.

Code: [Select]
Discretion class Diplomatic Ship      3,181 tons       72 Crew       425.3 BP       TCS 64    TH 200    EM 0
3144 km/s      Armour 1-19       Shields 0-0       HTK 16      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 1      PPV 0
MSP 83    Max Repair 300 MSP
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   DIP   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months   

COM C7 P50 Magneto-P Drive  EP200.0 (1)    Power 200    Fuel Use 7.83%    Signature 200    Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 72.3 billion km (266 days at full power)

S10 E6 Active Search Sensor AS6-R100 (1)     GPS 100     Range 6.4m km    Resolution 100

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
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Offline froggiest1982

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Re: Am I doing diplomacy wrong?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2020, 08:11:06 PM »
I've given the changes posts on diplomacy a good read, I thought I had understood it as it worked first time. Now I don't get any message about increase in diplomatic rating and looking at the intelligence reports it shows that the rating isn't improving (it isn't decreasing either though).

Here is my diplomatic ship design in-case I have missed something, though it seems to be working fine on the other NPR.

Code: [Select]
Discretion class Diplomatic Ship      3,181 tons       72 Crew       425.3 BP       TCS 64    TH 200    EM 0
3144 km/s      Armour 1-19       Shields 0-0       HTK 16      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 1      PPV 0
MSP 83    Max Repair 300 MSP
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   DIP   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months   

COM C7 P50 Magneto-P Drive  EP200.0 (1)    Power 200    Fuel Use 7.83%    Signature 200    Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 72.3 billion km (266 days at full power)

S10 E6 Active Search Sensor AS6-R100 (1)     GPS 100     Range 6.4m km    Resolution 100

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

If I am not wrong the active sensor does bother the NPRs quite a bit as they assume you have some sort of weapons capability. So I usually go with EM and TH sensors and of course commercial engines (as these are another part of the NPRs priority list when assessing danger)

Try with some passive ones.

Also, I think that if the race you trying to befriend has a high Xenophoby Trait, there is not much you can do.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 08:14:39 PM by froggiest1982 »
 

Offline Llamageddon (OP)

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Re: Am I doing diplomacy wrong?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2020, 10:00:32 PM »
Thanks, I put active on because passives made it a military vessel, but now I think about it, the NPRs wouldn't know that as they are passive. Shame to loose the no maintenance upkeep of a commercial vessel. Maybe I'll see what happens when I put in my "espionage" diplomatic ship with it's main sensors switched off.

Code: [Select]
DIP Desception 001  (Desception class Diplomatic Ship)      6,033 tons       130 Crew       737.5 BP       TCS 121    TH 400    EM 0
3315 km/s      Armour 1-29       Shields 0-0       HTK 36      Sensors 30/30/0/0      DCR 3      PPV 0
Maint Life 3.00 Years     MSP 629    AFR 97%    IFR 1.3%    1YR 105    5YR 1,570    Max Repair 300 MSP
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   DIP   
Intended Deployment Time: 36 months    Morale Check Required   

COM C7 P50 Magneto-P Drive  EP200.0 (2)    Power 400    Fuel Use 7.83%    Signature 200    Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 76.2 billion km (266 days at full power)

S10 E6 Active Search Sensor AS6-R100 (1)     GPS 100     Range 6.4m km    Resolution 100
E6 EM Sensor EM5-30 (1)     Sensitivity 30     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  43.3m km
T6 Thermal Sensor TH5-30 (1)     Sensitivity 30     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  43.3m km
ELINT Module (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  17.7m km

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
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Offline replicant2699

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Re: Am I doing diplomacy wrong?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2020, 10:13:02 PM »
I've encountered an NPR for the first time today, only 6 jumps away from Sol.   When I first detected their ship with my scout, I just ordered it to burn back to JP and expected it to blow up.   Luckily they were friendly and sent me message.   After I hastily made a diplo ship, I sent it to their system and we established communications.   I guess they don't like me being in their home system, but both our diplo ships are sitting on a JP one jump away and we are increasing our relations.   It is now at around 250 and I gave them trade access, just to see what happens, though I don't think they are willing to do the same. 

As others mentioned above, it looks like they treat military ships different.   I tried to sneak past an intelligence ship to their home system and got detected.   They "demanded" that ship to leave the system while they only "suggested" civilian ships to leave, if I remember correctly. 

I am a bit confused now though about the active sensor.   Based on the alien contact wiki page, I assumed we were supposed to detect a population or an alien ship (not necessarily their diplo ship?) in order to translate their language and establish communications. 

Quote
For translation checks to happen, both sides must have ships and/or populations in the same system and both sides must be able to detect the other.   Detection in this context is Thermal or EM for populations and Active for ships.   So you must effectively announce your presence and stay there if you wish to attempt communication (or show the aliens the way to another system for communication attempts). 

I also have an active sensor in my diplo ship and they seem to be ok with it. 

Quote from: Llamageddon link=topic=11975. msg141778#msg141778 date=1602903632
Thanks, I put active on because passives made it a military vessel, but now I think about it, the NPRs wouldn't know that as they are passive.  Shame to loose the no maintenance upkeep of a commercial vessel.  Maybe I'll see what happens when I put in my "espionage" diplomatic ship with it's main sensors switched off.

I believe you can put passive sensors on commercial ships as long as they are size 1 or lower.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 10:17:41 PM by replicant2699 »
 

Offline Llamageddon (OP)

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Re: Am I doing diplomacy wrong?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2020, 10:27:18 PM »
Thanks for the insight, I'll test out the size 1 sensors. I've had communications open when they are talking to my survey ships with military engines, so a diplomatic module isn't required, though perhaps it helps. From reading Steve's posts, I also assumed you needed active sensors to best engage in diplomacy. It's annoying I don't get any kind of status update on diplomacy with them in the event log. I think that has only happened when I have been next to the first's diplomatic ship. But it still feels like something isn't WAI.

Maybe these aliens just don't want to be friends. They are pouring units through a jumpgate to get destroyed by my "friendly" NPR. I'm glad he's a buffer for me. Interesting that there are two groups in one system right next to the home system of the first NPR. I'm only just into my first decade of the game.
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Offline froggiest1982

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Re: Am I doing diplomacy wrong?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2020, 11:19:46 PM »
Active size 1
EM size 1
TH size 1

are all commercial.

I think NPR go with signature reading from the engines to determine if a ship is either commercial or military, however when they detect active sensors they assume the ship has some sort of offensive capability or at least this is what I understood observing tgeir behaviour.

Maybe you notice more activity as when you activate the activevsensor your ship becomes visible from much further away therefore activating detection but as suggested already you can just activate your transponder to ensure you are seen and then engage the NPR in a close range to ensure lock.

Regarding detection itself I think an EM or TH signal should count as detection as long as it's both ways, but now I am not sure...

Offline Llamageddon (OP)

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Re: Am I doing diplomacy wrong?
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2020, 11:44:27 AM »
Can confirm passives count as detection, just found my 5th(?!) NPR, I am only ten years in and started the game with 1 NPR. These guys were detected by my new commercial engined Geosurvey class, which just has passives. Without a diplomatic ship I am already getting a diplomatic ratng increase on my events log. Do you think the previous two NPRs could be some kind of spoiler race or something, or just have very hight xenophobie? I just don't understand why I can't open diplomatic channels with them, yet they are not hostile.
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Offline froggiest1982

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Re: Am I doing diplomacy wrong?
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2020, 02:04:40 PM »
Do you think the previous two NPRs could be some kind of spoiler race or something, or just have very hight xenophobie? I just don't understand why I can't open diplomatic channels with them, yet they are not hostile.

yes, probably spoilers

Offline Llamageddon (OP)

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Re: Am I doing diplomacy wrong?
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2020, 02:17:33 PM »
Got an update, my Geosurvey vessel in the system those two NPRs wouldn't communicate with me in just found a jumpgate to what looks like their home system (it looks like they could be sharing a planet, I've heard it is possible). They wouldn't talk to my diplomatic ship in the other system but now I have a military engined GSV in their home system my diplomacy score is increasing... I think I am misundarsting something about how diplomacy works. I'm obviously going to take out my GSV and try with my diplomatic ship in their home system and hope it doesn't piss them off too much to have any kind of ship there. We'll see. Barring that I can sit on the other side of their jump gate and see if they are more happy to talk there when they come through.
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Offline Tikigod

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Re: Am I doing diplomacy wrong?
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2020, 07:45:54 PM »
Can confirm passives count as detection, just found my 5th(?!) NPR, I am only ten years in and started the game with 1 NPR. These guys were detected by my new commercial engined Geosurvey class, which just has passives. Without a diplomatic ship I am already getting a diplomatic ratng increase on my events log. Do you think the previous two NPRs could be some kind of spoiler race or something, or just have very hight xenophobie? I just don't understand why I can't open diplomatic channels with them, yet they are not hostile.

Sometimes communication simply isn't possible, after a period of attempting to communicate with little positive progress your diplomats will eventually just give up and you'll see a message in the event log along the lines of "Diplomats attempting to translate the language of <Alien Race> have abandoned their efforts. They insist they are just too alien to understand".

I have never come across a non-hostile spoiler, and if they're sending territory demands then they're most definitely not traditional spoilers as those don't communicate in any way, they just exist in their system and engage anything they pick up on sensors.
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Offline TheTalkingMeowth

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Re: Am I doing diplomacy wrong?
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2020, 08:40:03 AM »
FWIW, the diplomatic rating increase that shows in the event log comes from THEIR diplomatic ship talking to you. THat's why you are getting that even without a diplomatic ship on site.

I agree that diplomacy feels a little awkward. I'm butted up against a neutralish NPR; it goes: their home system, where they demand I leave (even commercial 10,500 ton diplomatic ship, and they actually attacked the ship that translated their language right before it left the system), then a system they claim (where they suggest leave for the diplo ship), then a system I have a colony in. I finally got them to park a diplo ship on the jump point into my colony system, but how do I keep them from sending other ships into the system? If I set suggest leave or whatever, won't the diplo ship also leave? The lack of neutral territory between us seems to make this really hard.
 
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Offline Llamageddon (OP)

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Re: Am I doing diplomacy wrong?
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2020, 09:31:38 AM »
I've got the same scenario: Their home system, their suggest leave system next to it, my colonised, suggest leave system next to that. So far parking my diplomatic ship in their suggest leave system is gaining plenty of diplomatic rating and they seem content to tolerate it sitting there indefinitely.

An option to give diplomatic ships access to your systems but not military ships would be a good improvement. We are getting along well enough now I am tempted to remove the suggest leave status on my neighbouring system, but I am worried they will colonise bodies in that system, and others, that I plan to use eventually.

Quote
FWIW, the diplomatic rating increase that shows in the event log comes from THEIR diplomatic ship talking to you. THat's why you are getting that even without a diplomatic ship on site.

Thanks for that info, I think that was one of the main things I was misunderstanding. Does that mean if my diplomatic ship increases my diplomatic rating with them, but there isn't a diplomatic ship of theirs in the area, that I can get increases with them but won't have it reported in the event log? This is where I seem to be having trouble increasing diplomatic rating with the two other NPRs.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 09:43:32 AM by Llamageddon »
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