Research too fast?

[minaev_lukav3 (OP)]

Hello fellow nerds.

Anybody else think research is too fast? i mean i play at 10% RP speed and still i tend to not use
a generation of tech or two.   

[Garfunkel]

It'll slow down once you get to Magneto-Plasma Tech Levels as the RP requirements skyrocket, especially if you're doing a 10% research speed game.

Unless you have ludicrous number of research labs, of course.

[nuclearslurpee]

I use a house rule that scientists only use 1/5 of their research admin bonus - so a scientist with 25 admin skill can only use 5 labs instead of 25. This makes sense because the admin skill usually increments by 5, so it is basically just changing the increment to 1. For me it works well, because I like the pace of research at default settings but with this restriction you cannot really rush techs very effectively, plus you use way more of your scientists instead of just your top 1-2 in every field.

[TheTalkingMeowth]

I use a house rule that scientists only use 1/5 of their research admin bonus - so a scientist with 25 admin skill can only use 5 labs instead of 25. This makes sense because the admin skill usually increments by 5, so it is basically just changing the increment to 1. For me it works well, because I like the pace of research at default settings but with this restriction you cannot really rush techs very effectively, plus you use way more of your scientists instead of just your top 1-2 in every field.

Seconding this one. I've used this exact house rule and been very pleased with it. I actually end up developing multiple technology paths instead of just rushing ahead on one weapon+engine tech!

[ArcWolf]

one of my house rules (i play in 20% btw) is that each field has to have the same amount of labs assigned, with 9 that can be freely distributed for "rush" jobs.

[minaev_lukav3 (OP)]

exactly!. i too use a 5labs per scientist rule at 10%

knowing people also use this rules makes me believe research really is fast. not that it matter we can set it to 1% if we like.
anyway i think i just have to role play more and less min maxing. (in most strategy single player, tech is King so i also tend to min max aurora).

[smoelf]

I use a house rule that scientists only use 1/5 of their research admin bonus - so a scientist with 25 admin skill can only use 5 labs instead of 25. This makes sense because the admin skill usually increments by 5, so it is basically just changing the increment to 1. For me it works well, because I like the pace of research at default settings but with this restriction you cannot really rush techs very effectively, plus you use way more of your scientists instead of just your top 1-2 in every field.

I might have to try this.
I have generally been satisfied with research speed for most of my time playing Aurora, but because of several discussions over the past year or so, I decided to try a run with reduced research speed (20 % I think). Honestly, it didn't feel that different, and was slightly disappointing. Don't get me wrong. It was nice to be able to use research components for longer, and be able to put a ship class through multiple weapon and sensor updates before getting that big upgrade with a new engine tech, but right now I have played for about 100 years and I still haven't even gotten to magneto-plasma tech yet. By now the game has also slowed down so much, that even if I get to magneto-plasma, I can probably expect my navy stabilize around the current tech level simply because I can't put in the time needed to pass another 100 years to get significant breakthroughs.

For some techs, this is fine, but it does feel kinda disappointing to be stuck on ion drive for so long. Increased tech levels give more options for ship design, which IMO makes for a more fun game, but it can be hard to find that balance, where you reach interesting tech levels fast enough to enjoy them before slow down, but also research slow enough that new components aren't obsolote by the time you have spent the time designing the component, retooling the shipyard, and building/refitting the ship.

[TheTalkingMeowth]

I use a house rule that scientists only use 1/5 of their research admin bonus - so a scientist with 25 admin skill can only use 5 labs instead of 25. This makes sense because the admin skill usually increments by 5, so it is basically just changing the increment to 1. For me it works well, because I like the pace of research at default settings but with this restriction you cannot really rush techs very effectively, plus you use way more of your scientists instead of just your top 1-2 in every field.

I might have to try this.
I have generally been satisfied with research speed for most of my time playing Aurora, but because of several discussions over the past year or so, I decided to try a run with reduced research speed (20 % I think). Honestly, it didn't feel that different, and was slightly disappointing. Don't get me wrong. It was nice to be able to use research components for longer, and be able to put a ship class through multiple weapon and sensor updates before getting that big upgrade with a new engine tech, but right now I have played for about 100 years and I still haven't even gotten to magneto-plasma tech yet. By now the game has also slowed down so much, that even if I get to magneto-plasma, I can probably expect my navy stabilize around the current tech level simply because I can't put in the time needed to pass another 100 years to get significant breakthroughs.

For some techs, this is fine, but it does feel kinda disappointing to be stuck on ion drive for so long. Increased tech levels give more options for ship design, which IMO makes for a more fun game, but it can be hard to find that balance, where you reach interesting tech levels fast enough to enjoy them before slow down, but also research slow enough that new components aren't obsolote by the time you have spent the time designing the component, retooling the shipyard, and building/refitting the ship.

This was my exact experience too. Reducing research speed just makes the game feel slow and bogged down; you still beeline the same techs in the same order, just slower.

The reduced labs per scientist rule had much greater gameplay impact and was much more fun.

[TMaekler]

Maybe the RP should be smoothed? Bigger increments in the lower tech area and smaller increments in the hightech area.

[nuclearslurpee]

Maybe the RP should be smoothed? Bigger increments in the lower tech area and smaller increments in the hightech area.

I think it is fine as it is. Higher techs are more expensive by a factor of usually 2x per tech tier, so it gets costly quickly, but at the same time the player race expands their research capabilities in many ways - building/"liberating" new labs, developing the +research tech line, developing a strong stable of scientists, dissembling components, recovering Ancient Constructs, and so on. Further, the player empire and fleet grows therefore it takes longer at each tech tier to actually implement/fully benefit from new tech advancements. I think overall it works okay, and it is a simple rule for tech costs where something more complicated (but "better balanced" ostensibly) would require a lot more working out to get right.

[Scandinavian]

Yes, the issue that seems to be identified here is that the lab limit per research lead is too high for the early techs and too low for the later techs. With a 30-50 lab cap (which researchers fairly quickly reach if you give them a single lab and a back-burner project to play with), that's "all the labs you can build" until you are already past the ion tech. While once you cap out the admin cap on 2-3 scientists, you really start to feel the research cost translate into research time much more directly.

What this seems to indicate is that there should be a "max lab multiplier" tech line to complement the "research speed" tech line. The fluff for that tech line isn't even that hard to justify - the amount of physical infrastructure going into a modern research lab is vastly greater than it was fifty or a hundred years ago.

[TMaekler]

Maybe the effectiveness of how many labs one researcher can "support" should not be a hard limit but rather the tipping point where his experience is diminished. If a researcher has 20% bonus and can "support" 10 research labs, he should get 20% bonus for the first 10 labs. But if we could allocate more than 10 to him, they should only receive 1/4th of his bonus, i.e. 5%. So he can use more labs, but not as effective as someone who can support 15 labs.

[Jorgen_CAB]

I have suggested before that labs should have a direct diminishing return for every lab you add to a scientist to encourage spreading science out among many scientist naturally. This also would be quite realistic.

The Administrative skill would simply make the curve flatter and the diminishing return less severe, so you generally would give more labs to scientists with good administrative skills.

I also think that if you do this you also don't need the skill level of scientists either, that would just be the same thing as administrative skill, you just need what area the scientist is expert in and give them four times the research in that area.

Let's say a scientist with admin skill of 1 would get the benefit of 10 labs as it was 3.16 labs, while an admin 2 scientist would count the same amount of labs as 3.98 labs, an admin 5 scientist would treat ten labs as 7.94 labs.

This would naturally force you to divide the labs and scientist skill would not dramatically change the amount of research you get... you just have to spread out the labs more and concentrate them on skilled scientists.

The wealth cost of the labs should still be per lab assigned, not amount of RP generated.

If you want to give a 20 labs to an admin 1 scientist then go right ahead... but that would be a waste instead of giving 4 labs to five different scientist as you get 4.47 from one scientist and 10 from five scientists.

This would actually give you choices instead of just concentrate on one tech at a time. Now the choice is if you want a wider more efficient research or if there is some important research you need to concentrate on, hopefully you have a high skilled scientist to lead that research.

You could then make the admin skill between 1-9 rather than 1-5 to scale it better... or some such.... but even the highest level need to receive some degree of diminishing return but much less than a skill one scientist.

[Migi]

I never have this problem, maybe I'm playing wrong.

[Erik L]

I never have this problem, maybe I'm playing wrong.

Only way to play wrong is not to play