v2.6.0 Changes Discussion Thread

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

Thanks Steve for these new updates!
The tech progression for the Refuelling Systems from 20k to 900k is it linear?
I think that small increments at the beginning, and larger ones towards the end, could create some subtle intricacies in finding the best balance between the systems to mount on a ship. And would push to invest and improve the tech.

So under the new change, will the Small refueling module still exist for fighters/facs?

Will we use a reduction factor to fit the refuel system to a fighter (like for engines)?
So, in theory, a fighter-tanker could refuel also large ships (rather impractical, but a large fleet of small tankers could).

The progression for refuelling is 20k, 30k, 40k, 60k, 90k, 135k, 200k, etc.

The small craft version still exists, with half the previous refuelling rate.

[Kiero]

Clear all Standing & Conditional orders button may be useful.

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

Elated to see the standing orders getting some love, especially with Templates on the way, this was sorely needed! Might I suggest adding a Load Ordnance standing order and/or possibly tucking it under the Replenish Overhaul order as well (so it would add Refuel, Resupply, Load Ordnance followed by Overhaul into the ship order list)? My buoy-deploying survey ships would benefit from it greatly

Also, I'm still ruminating about possible ways of making conditional orders interact with conventional order templates for even more automation. One possibility that comes to mind is tweaking the order template UI slightly to allow moving templates up and down in their list and assigning numbers to them then adding conditional orders to execute the template #1-5 in the system where it's triggered. Just a thought!

Another weird quirk of conditionals that comes to mind is their inability to get triggered in sub-3h increments. For most orders this could result in very minor weirdness at most (not knowing for sure which way a Swarm survey ship that just entered the system went because the smallest increment to make it start surveying puts it out of range of your JP buoys) but for more tangentially combat-related ones such as Rescue Lifepod or Activate Sensors/Shields this can be incredibly annoying. If you find yourself needing to pick up 100 lifepods with 10 ships, this takes 30 hours at least, even if they're close enough that manually clicking would get it done in 5 minutes. Would getting rid of the minimum increment length for standing orders be too performance-intensive? (I would also like to bring up my previous suggestion to give diplomacy events the same treatment)

As for the Class Design UI update, this looks lovely, but I think the summaries should be kept out of the ship-specific Wide View section. They actually reduce readability greatly if they're all collapsed by default, and having all those extra lines reduces the threshold for how component-diverse a ship can be before scrolling is necessary to navigate it. I think readability should be prioritized here, and being able to check on every class design's components should require as few clicks as possible, with the old system accomplishing that just fine. Most ship designs don't have so many components that categories for each type would make sense anyway, so if you really want per-ship summaries, then having just the Defense category instead of also having Armour and Shield categories both of which would only ever hold one entry would be more than enough, this would actually result in less lines per screen than we currently have.

I will be adding more standing order options and load ordnance will be included in a 'Replenish' order that is refuel, resupply and load ordnance, plus the Replenish Overhaul order.

I'll move the standings and conditionals into all increments and see how the performance goes.

Diplomacy is tricker, because there are time-related algos, but I agree about the problem. I take advantage myself to sneak through AI systems within the 5-day window   I'll look at how easy it is to change.

Agree on the class components. I have changed it to group class components only by summary type, without the intermediate component type. I've updated the post.
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=13463.msg173389#msg173389

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

Clear all Standing & Conditional orders button may be useful.

Added.

[Droll]

How will the new standing order templates propagate through to both detaching subfleets and squadrons? I don't actually recall what the current functionality around propagation is though tbh.

[Ghostly]

I will be adding more standing order options and load ordnance will be included in a 'Replenish' order that is refuel, resupply and load ordnance, plus the Replenish Overhaul order.

I'll move the standings and conditionals into all increments and see how the performance goes.

Diplomacy is tricker, because there are time-related algos, but I agree about the problem. I take advantage myself to sneak through AI systems within the 5-day window   I'll look at how easy it is to change.

Agree on the class components. I have changed it to group class components only by summary type, without the intermediate component type. I've updated the post.
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=13463.msg173389#msg173389

Great to hear, thank you! If all-increment standing orders don't quite work out, having them trigger in 1 or even 5-minute increments would still be great, honestly having the game run all that logic during shorter increments commonly seen in already performance-intensive naval combat would probably be too much. Also really hoping you'll manage to tweak diplomatic events as well.

How will the new standing order templates propagate through to both detaching subfleets and squadrons? I don't actually recall what the current functionality around propagation is though tbh.

That's a great reminder! Truth is, there is none currently, save for the "Divide Fleet into Single Ships" order which does inherit standing and conditional orders in full. I recall writing a wall of text about how great sub-fleets retaining conditional orders will be, this is partially moot given the arrival of standing order templates since manually re-setting them will now be easier, but having all those use cases become possible with sub-fleet standing order retention and a Detach Sub-fleet order is still the dream.

[Aloriel]

Wow Steve! Looooove the standing order changes and fleet waypoints! As if 2.6 wasn't already awesome, you just kicked it up a notch! Can't wait!

[nuclearslurpee]

I appreciate the new Fleet Waypoint concept, this is finally a way to issue orders "in place" to a fleet which has been an occasional need for me.

[Froggiest1982]

Feeling like with all new changes and time elapsed between this and latest update that Steve should start thinking at a 3.0 version rename instead of 2.6 

[Droll]

Thanks for the standing order propagation options. That will be a massive help.

I have a question about the enhanced precursors though - Since there is a delay between the emergence of ground forces and space forces - What happens if all ground forces are eliminated before the space assets wake up? Do they immediately activate, or will combat on the surface immediately trigger the space assets as well?

Since the justification for the delay is for the precursors to secure the surface before launching their space assets, it would be a bit weird if they didn't react to losing the ground engagement and just waited with their space ships. It would also be cool if your forces could potentially discover the dormant spaceships in such cases.

[Hazard]

Do the new orders also apply to stations, or are those a special case?

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

Do the new orders also apply to stations, or are those a special case?

I'm not sure what stations you mean, but stations are just ships without engines rather than a special case. For example, the Refuel from Ship order would choose a fuel harvester station if that is the closest option.

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

Thanks for the standing order propagation options. That will be a massive help.

I have a question about the enhanced precursors though - Since there is a delay between the emergence of ground forces and space forces - What happens if all ground forces are eliminated before the space assets wake up? Do they immediately activate, or will combat on the surface immediately trigger the space assets as well?

Since the justification for the delay is for the precursors to secure the surface before launching their space assets, it would be a bit weird if they didn't react to losing the ground engagement and just waited with their space ships. It would also be cool if your forces could potentially discover the dormant spaceships in such cases.

I was wondering if someone would ask that

As it stands, if you destroy the ground forces, you capture the colony and no more ships appear. I haven't decided yet whether to leave it that way.

[Louella]

for conditional orders, will there be things for cargoholds ? and orders to unload cargo onto particular colonies ?

Like, salvage ships have the standing order available to salvage wrecks. Eventually they'll run out of cargo space in their fleet. So they need to unload components and minerals somewhere. You don't want to have them just unload anywhere though. An option to unload components & minerals at shipbuilding colonies would be ideal.

Similarly, lifeboats/hospital ships, that have the standing order to collect lifepods, they need to unload survivors/POWs somewhere, and a relevant destination order would be useful there. iirc the new POW mechanics, you want to unload POWs at a naval HQ location, so maybe that one ?

[Dadekster]

Just wanted to chip in and also express my appreciation for the work being done in this update. Some really nice QoL improvements in this one.