Author Topic: ship design  (Read 8327 times)

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Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: ship design
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2009, 02:17:55 PM »
Quote from: "jfelten"
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
While the 'exact class size' figure on the class summary window can contain fractions, the displayed tonnage and the actual size saved to the database are both rounded up to the nearest 50 tons in all cases except fighters. Please can you post one of the classes where the actual displayed tonnage is not being rounded up so I can try and figure out what is causing the problem.
Ah ha.  So, even though the exact size of the jump ship shows something like 2,990 tons, it can still jump non-jump-drive ships that are a full (exact) 3,000 tons (assuming the jump ship has a 3,000 ton jump drive)?

But if the exact size is 3,001 tons, it will round up to 3,050 and therefore the strength 3,000 jump drive won't be able to function, right?
Yes, that correct. I just realised that you probably have the Show Size in Tons checkbox checked and are reading the tonnage from the Exact Class Size box. The tonnage that is saved is the rounded up one in the summary display. The exact class size is to allow you to work out if you can add small systems without affecting overall size.

Steve
 

Offline jfelten

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Re: ship design
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2009, 03:28:11 PM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Yes, that correct. I just realised that you probably have the Show Size in Tons checkbox checked and are reading the tonnage from the Exact Class Size box. The tonnage that is saved is the rounded up one in the summary display. The exact class size is to allow you to work out if you can add small systems without affecting overall size.

Steve

Yep, that is it exactly.  I usually select the option to show things in tons when available to avoid having to think in both systems.  A minor wish is that those check boxes were sticky and available everywhere hull spaces are used.
 

Offline welchbloke

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Re: ship design
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2009, 06:07:10 PM »
Quote from: "jfelten"
A couple philosophical 4.x ship design questions for players that have ran through a few years of 4.x game time:  

Playing with maintenance off, it looks like commercial engines might be a good idea for Geo and Grav survey ships, simply for the great increase in endurance/range?  They are slower for the same total mass, but being able to keep on surveying for literally years without refueling should make up some of that.  
.

I tend to use military grade engines purely because, particularly early in the game, I want to survey systems and expand as fast as possible.  That said your premise for using commercial engines is perfectly valid and should work perfectly well.

Quote from: "jfelten"
I assume that jump gate construction ships are normally designed as non-military units due to the huge size of the Jump Gate Construction Module (50,000 tons), so they can be built in the starting commercial shipyard.
That is exactly what I do and I then set them to cruise arond JP building gates to systems that I want to encourage the civilian shipping lines to visit.  However, with Steve adding comemrcial jump drives to v4.3 I suspect that this paradigm may change.  Steve should be able to answer if commecial shipping lines will build jump capable freighters or not.
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Offline jfelten

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Re: ship design
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2009, 03:44:43 AM »
My starting commercial shipyard was 3x49,000 so couldn't even build the 50,000 ton jump gate construction module alone.  I designed a slow fairly minimal JG ship of 63,550 tons and bought that with my starting funds anyway.  Perhaps there was a horrible act of commercial shipyard sabotage right before I took the reins and was crowned Emperor Eternal.  I just didn't want to spend years of game time before I could build my first jump gate.  I did start expanding the size of the commercial shipyard immediately, but with 3 slips, it is going to take a long time before I can build another JG construction ship.

I am looking forward to 4.3 and the commercial jump drive.  I don't like not being able to ship industry etc. without jump gates like I could in 3.x.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: ship design
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2009, 08:03:19 PM »
Quote from: "jfelten"
My starting commercial shipyard was 3x49,000 so couldn't even build the 50,000 ton jump gate construction module alone.  I designed a slow fairly minimal JG ship of 63,550 tons and bought that with my starting funds anyway.  Perhaps there was a horrible act of commercial shipyard sabotage right before I took the reins and was crowned Emperor Eternal.  I just didn't want to spend years of game time before I could build my first jump gate.  I did start expanding the size of the commercial shipyard immediately, but with 3 slips, it is going to take a long time before I can build another JG construction ship.

I am looking forward to 4.3 and the commercial jump drive.  I don't like not being able to ship industry etc. without jump gates like I could in 3.x.
Commercial shipyards can be expanded at ten times the rate of naval shipyards so it doesn't take that long to get from 49,000 to 65,000.

Steve
 

Offline jfelten

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Re: ship design
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2009, 08:57:40 AM »
I guess I would have waited then for the shipyard to upgrade.  Good to know.
 

Offline WHCnelson

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Re: ship design
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2009, 01:11:55 PM »
I have a number of vessels that I think are a good design; But I would love your input in that I have just begun to
set up a campaign and I am new to Auroura.
  Making Changes to my set up
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 04:03:26 AM by WHCnelson »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: ship design
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2009, 06:06:24 PM »
Quote from: "WHCnelson"
I have a number of vessels that I think are a good design; But I would love your input in that I have just begun to
set up a campaign and I am new to Auroura.

Due to the way that phpBB formats text, a good tip for displaying ship designs is to use the code brackets to make them more readable. Using the first design as an example:

Belknap class Battlecruiser    10000 tons     1061 Crew     1387.76 BP      TCS 200  TH 600  EM 90
3000 km/s     Armour 1-41     Shields 3-300     Sensors 48/48/0/0     Damage Control Rating 5     PPV 27
Annual Failure Rate: 160%    IFR: 2.2%    Maintenance Capacity 434 MSP    Max Repair 112 MSP
Magazine 301    

Ion Engine E8 (10)    Power 60    Fuel Use 80%    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%    Hyper Capable
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 67.5 billion km   (260 days at full power)
Beta R300/12 Shields (2)   Total Fuel Cost  24 Litres per day

Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor PB-1 AR-8.0 (1)     Total Power Output 36    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Size 3 Missile Launcher (9)    Missile Size 3    Rate of Fire 30
Missile Fire Control FC112-R12 (2)     Range 40.3m km    Resolution 12

Thermal Sensor TH8-48 (1)     Sensitivity 48     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  48m km
EM Detection Sensor EM8-48 (1)     Sensitivity 48     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  48m km

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes

Code: [Select]
Belknap class Battlecruiser    10000 tons     1061 Crew     1387.76 BP      TCS 200  TH 600  EM 90
3000 km/s     Armour 1-41     Shields 3-300     Sensors 48/48/0/0     Damage Control Rating 5     PPV 27
Annual Failure Rate: 160%    IFR: 2.2%    Maintenance Capacity 434 MSP    Max Repair 112 MSP
Magazine 301    

Ion Engine E8 (10)    Power 60    Fuel Use 80%    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%    Hyper Capable
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 67.5 billion km   (260 days at full power)
Beta R300/12 Shields (2)   Total Fuel Cost  24 Litres per day

Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor PB-1 AR-8.0 (1)     Total Power Output 36    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Size 3 Missile Launcher (9)    Missile Size 3    Rate of Fire 30
Missile Fire Control FC112-R12 (2)     Range 40.3m km    Resolution 12

Thermal Sensor TH8-48 (1)     Sensitivity 48     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  48m km
EM Detection Sensor EM8-48 (1)     Sensitivity 48     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  48m km

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes
Steve
 

Online Andrew

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Re: ship design
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2009, 06:14:15 PM »
Quote from: "WHCnelson"
I have a number of vessels that I think are a good design; But I would love your input in that I have just begun to
set up a campaign and I am new to Auroura.

The first two are what I am calling Battlecruisers:

[Belknap class Battlecruiser    10000 tons     1061 Crew     1387.76 BP      TCS 200  TH 600  EM 90
3000 km/s     Armour 1-41     Shields 3-300     Sensors 48/48/0/0     Damage Control Rating 5     PPV 27
Annual Failure Rate: 160%    IFR: 2.2%    Maintenance Capacity 434 MSP    Max Repair 112 MSP
Magazine 301    

Ion Engine E8 (10)    Power 60    Fuel Use 80%    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%    Hyper Capable
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 67.5 billion km   (260 days at full power)
Beta R300/12 Shields (2)   Total Fuel Cost  24 Litres per day

Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor PB-1 AR-8.0 (1)     Total Power Output 36    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Size 3 Missile Launcher (9)    Missile Size 3    Rate of Fire 30
Missile Fire Control FC112-R12 (2)     Range 40.3m km    Resolution 12

Thermal Sensor TH8-48 (1)     Sensitivity 48     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  48m km
EM Detection Sensor EM8-48 (1)     Sensitivity 48     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  48m km

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes
A short list of problems
It has tissue paper for defenses any hit will breach the armour and inflict internal hits

It has no active sensors , although it has a missile fire control so it will not be able to target anything with missiles

It seems to have no magazines so no missiles which makes the launchers even more useless

It has a powerplant which does nothing as it has no beam weapons to be powered

I would not fit so large passive sensors to a warship but that is personal taste

All your ships have the same problems and so will be pretty useless

specifically extra problems
Your escort cruiser has resolution 10 FC unit , for antimissile work you need resolution 1 sensors

You have ships mounting Meson guns and ships mounting lasers I rarely bother developing two seperate lines of beam weapons

You have some ships mounting Alpha shields and some Beta shields possibly the ones with Alpha shields are an older design but unless they are there is no point mounting Alpha shields they are just less efficient than Beta ones

Also your engines are hyoer capable you do not need that to use jump points , just to move fast between components of a Binary a rare situation I have never needed them and they make your engines much bigger than they need to be so I would not bother with Hyper capable engines as routine
 

Online Andrew

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Re: ship design
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2009, 06:15:03 PM »
Your colony ship is militaty because you fitted military engines
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: ship design
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2009, 06:32:13 PM »
Code: [Select]
Belknap class Battlecruiser    10000 tons[/b]     1061 Crew     1387.76 BP      TCS 200  TH 600  EM 90
3000 km/s     Armour 1-41     Shields 3-300     Sensors 48/48/0/0     Damage Control Rating 5     PPV 27
Annual Failure Rate: 160%    IFR: 2.2%    Maintenance Capacity 434 MSP    Max Repair 112 MSP
Magazine 301    

Ion Engine E8 (10)    Power 60    Fuel Use 80%    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%    Hyper Capable
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 67.5 billion km   (260 days at full power)
Beta R300/12 Shields (2)   Total Fuel Cost  24 Litres per day

Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor PB-1 AR-8.0 (1)     Total Power Output 36    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Size 3 Missile Launcher (9)    Missile Size 3    Rate of Fire 30
Missile Fire Control FC112-R12 (2)     Range 40.3m km    Resolution 12

Thermal Sensor TH8-48 (1)     Sensitivity 48     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  48m km
EM Detection Sensor EM8-48 (1)     Sensitivity 48     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  48m km
You have done absolutely the right thing by posting designs and asking for feedback. It is definitely the best way to learn Aurora's very detailed ship design. With that in mind, please don't be offended by any constructive criticism as sometimes people can appear to tear a design to pieces when in fact they are just trying to be helpful :). I would reduce the size of the passive sensors and use the extra space to add the active sensor.

Reactors are used to power beam weapons so the total power you need is whatever is required every 5 seconds. For example, the following weapon has a power requirement of 10-4, which means it requires 10 total power to fire and that the maximum power it can recharge every 5 seconds is 4. So the total reactor power you would need is 4, as that is all the weapon can use every 5 seconds. If you had six of these on a ship, you would require 24 power every 5 seconds, which means reactors with a total power output of 24. Missile launchers and Gauss Cannon don't require any power at all

Code: [Select]
20cm C4 Ultraviolet Laser (1)    Range 0km     TS: 4000 km/s     Power 10-4     RM 4    ROF 15 The speed is possibly on the low size but that really depends on your combat philosophy. The main thing to avoid is low speed and short-ranged weapons. if you have either high speed or long-ranged weapons, you are generally OK (Unless those evil aliens have higher speed and longer-ranged weapons :))

The shield strength is very low and you have no additional armour. A single missile will take down the shield and leave you very vulnerable, Given your shield tech, the best option is probably to increase the armour strength to perhaps 3 or 4. In Aurora, the armour rating is the depth of the armour belt so 3 armour will actually mean 120+ armour boxes on that size of design. They will be in a grid about 40 long by 3 deep. Incoming fire has different damage templates which will cause cratering in the armour. Here is armour with a rating of 3-29 (3 deep, 29 wide) that has taken a hit from a missile with a 10 point warhead

[attachment=0:2981rgjk]Armour1.GIF[/attachment:2981rgjk]
Everything else looks fine. You have grasped a lot of the fundamentals (which isn't easy with no manual) so its mainly a case of balancing the various parts of the design.

Steve
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: ship design
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2009, 06:36:57 PM »
Quote from: "WHCnelson"
The Last I have is a Colony vessel.   I also plan to design quite a few  more vessels over the coming days....

This is only a Preliminary design of a Colony ship and my problem is that it is classed as a military vessel when its a Commercial Vessel?   What am I doing wrong?
Every design starts off as commercial. However, once you add even a single military system it becomes a military design. In this case, it is the engines. You will need to design and fit commercial engines instead. If you click the 'Commercial Only' checkbox on the design window, that will hide all military systems

Steve
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: ship design
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2009, 06:52:25 PM »
Code: [Select]
Forrestal class Escort Cruiser    8000 tons[/b]     763 Crew     1204.68 BP      TCS 160  TH 480  EM 60
3000 km/s     Armour 1-35     Shields 2-300     Sensors 48/48/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 8
Annual Failure Rate: 128%    IFR: 1.8%    Maintenance Capacity 376 MSP    Max Repair 140 MSP
Magazine 313    

Ion Engine E8 (8)    Power 60    Fuel Use 80%    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%    Hyper Capable
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 70.3 billion km   (271 days at full power)
Beta R300/12 Shields (1)   Total Fuel Cost  12 Litres per day

Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor PB-1 AR-8.0 (1)     Total Power Output 36    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Size 1 Missile Launcher (8)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Missile Fire Control FC140-R10 (2)     Range 42.0m km    Resolution 10

Thermal Sensor TH8-48 (1)     Sensitivity 48     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  48m km
EM Detection Sensor EM8-48 (1)     Sensitivity 48     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  48m km
The comment on the previous design apply in some cases to this one as well. The missiles you are using aren't displayed on this design as I you presumably haven't selected a default loadout yet (which you can do on the Ordnance/Fighters tab of the design window), so I am going to assume you are planning to use this design to launch anti-missiles.

The passives are probably not necessary on an escort design as the ship is intended to be part of a fleet and won't operate alone. The ships it is escorting can provide passive sensors and long range sensors. The only thing an escort design should be concerned with is detecting missiles and shooting them down. To do that you will need active sensors and fire controls capable of detecting and targeting missiles. The resolution of a sensor in Aurora determines the minimum size of ship that sensor can detect at maximum range. So a sensor with a range of 100m kilometers and a resolution of 80, can detect ships of size 80 or greater out to its maximum range of 100m kilometers. If it tries to detect something smaller, the max range is can do so is equal to: Max Range x (Target Size / Resolution)^2

That isn't as complex it might look once you add some figures. Lets assume the enemy ship is size 50 (2500 tons). At what range could the above sensor detect it? Target Size / Resolution = 50 / 80 = 0.625. That number is squared, which is 0.625 x 0.625 = 0.391. Multiplying that by the range of 100m kilometers means that you could detect the ship at a range of 39.1m kilometers. As you can see, the range at which you can detect smaller ships falls fast. A 1000 ton ship could only be detected at 6.25 million kilometers and a missile (size 0) at just 15,600 km!

What all the above means is that you really need a resolution zero sensor to detect missiles. The missile fire control above with a resolution of 10 and a range of 42m kilometers would only be able to target missiles at a range of 420,000 km. So you need to add a resolution zero active sensor and replace the fire controls with resolution zero versions. Don't be concerned that the range of these sensors will be low. Most anti-missile escorts have engagement ranges of only one or two million kilometers

Steve
 

Offline welchbloke

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Re: ship design
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2009, 07:14:57 PM »
Two things to consider regarding your survey designs.  Firstly, Your maintenace capacity allows for one failure and repair of the max repair item on the ship. This is usually something important, in this case sensors. Ask yourself if you intend to support this ship or a flotilla of these ships with a dedicated support tender carrying lots of maintenance supplies. If you are then good, but, don't forget that after these ships have a couple of years on their maintenance clocks there is a fair chance that they will have to break off their surveys and resupply on a very regularly basis. Secondly, the same logic applies to the fuel tanks. You have enough for a little over 200 days.  Chances are that once you've explored a few systems out from your home world these ships are going to need to be re-fueled 2 or 3 times per mission.

Regarding your warships. I won't rehash all the good advice from Steve and Andrew, but what I will say is that your North Carolina class reduces the effective speed on any fleet they join by 600 km/s. You may want to pick a desired fleet speed and design your ships to meet it.
These designs are much better than my first BTW  :D
Welchbloke
 

Offline WHCnelson

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Re: ship design
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2009, 07:30:54 PM »
Everyone,

         Thanks for the advice on design...  I am going to go and look at my tech.  When I started
designing the tech I wasn't sure about what I was doing so I just looked at what was there and went
down on the sizes from 0.5 to 50 or etc.  So, now I think I know a little more and I will either begin to
redesign what vessels I have tomorrow after I get home from work or start all over from the beginning.  
         But, right now I have a question on how to increase the armor on my ships without adding new
tech to the ships.   Also, when I have an active sensor it should have at least 5 or 10% range on what the
weapons ranges are?    Again, thanks...