Author Topic: A little colony/mining help please  (Read 7377 times)

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Offline waresky

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Re: A little colony/mining help please
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2010, 06:13:22 AM »
Quote
You must create a "Colony" on Mars in order to mine it, in the F9 System view window click on Mars and there's a "Create Colony" button on the bottom of the window. However it won't be a habitable colony, just a mining colony. You'll see it in your F2 economics window upon refresh and it will be available as a destination in your F12 fleet window immediately

NO.Its a MORE fastest way to Colonizing a planet..:D

SIMPLE:
Take a Cargo Task group,order: LOAD AUTOMATED MINES at "Earth" then..Unload AUTOMATED MINES at.ie: Alpha Centauri A I..

Fastest-simple
 

Offline James Patten

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Re: A little colony/mining help please
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2010, 06:20:52 AM »
Back to the original thought of Elmo's Mines on Mars....

Something you might want to do is assemble a 5-man Survey team and send them to Mars.  There is a possibility (slim but real) that they will discover that the GeoSurvey ships didn't know what they were talking about and that the accessibility isn't .5 but something greater.  While they are at it they may discover small pockets of other minerals that the GeoSurvey ships missed.  Eventually they will find out there's nothing more to find.  Try to use officers with the highest survey bonus for the survey team, because the higher the sum of the bonuses the better the team will do.
 

Offline Elmo (OP)

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Re: A little colony/mining help please
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2010, 06:35:17 AM »
So can Survey Teams go to uninhabitable planets or asteroids?  Might make sense as they won't be living there but there must be limits on where they can go.  They wouldn't be able to do much on a 20g world for instance.  Or are they considered to be surveying from orbit?
 

Offline James Patten

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Re: A little colony/mining help please
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2010, 09:02:36 AM »
AFAIK A survey team (or any team for that matter) can land on anything except a gas giant or a star.  Maybe the same technology that gives us artificial gravity on the ships (there is artificial gravity on ships, isn't there?) must give the teams their own little mobile platforms to move around the surface.
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: A little colony/mining help please
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2010, 09:07:50 AM »
Quote from: "James Patten"
AFAIK A survey team (or any team for that matter) can land on anything except a gas giant or a star.  Maybe the same technology that gives us artificial gravity on the ships (there is artificial gravity on ships, isn't there?) must give the teams their own little mobile platforms to move around the surface.

There does need to be a colony in place on the body in question, though.  It doesn't have to have anything (people or installations) in it, but it's needed as a container into which the survey team can be placed.  As has been said before, it's easy to make a colony by going to the F9 screen and hitting the "add colony" button while the body in question is selected.

John
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: A little colony/mining help please
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2010, 03:23:47 PM »
Quote from: "Brian"
Quote from: "Elmo"
Th last couple of posts got me thinking so I'm going OT in my own thread for a minute.  A lot of 4X games encourage specialization with colonies.  One is best suited for research, another for ship building, another for mining, etc.  Are there any incentives for that in Aurora or is is best for each colony to be more self sufficient?

It used to be that there was a strong incentive to specialize colonies for reasearch purposes.  That was so you could get multiple different leaders with different scientific specializations working on projects.  With the change in seting up reasearch projects that has gone away.  Currently I would say there is some benifit to specialization for smaller colonies (under 100k) as they won't have the people to do much of anything.  By the time you get into the 1billion range, probably not really.  I still do like to split my research off from my main industrial planet though.  Mostly this is because by the time it is an issue, my homeworld is out of minerals so moving the population to a world with lots of minerals and having the factories/shipyards move as well simplifies the logistics.  Moving that much population (about half) is not easy, but it does work out well.  

Brian

I'm not sure this holds true in 4.77, but in prior versions you could have 2 colonies research the same tech.

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: A little colony/mining help please
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2010, 04:13:37 PM »
Quote from: "sloanjh"
BTW, with the new research rules, I haven't had any motivation to move research labs off Earth to the colonies - I can work on multiple projects while keeping them at home.
I have been thinking about that too. Not sure who gave me the idea but I am thinking about having certain astrographic locations that benefit research. A planet very close to a star, or the moon of a gas giant with a strong magnetic field, or a nebula system, or a very cold planet, etc. I need to give this some more thought but it would be cool to have research colonies in some weird and wonderful locations. It would also be better if different locations had benefits to different types of research.

Steve
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: A little colony/mining help please
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2010, 04:17:52 PM »
Quote from: "Elmo"
Th last couple of posts got me thinking so I'm going OT in my own thread for a minute.  A lot of 4X games encourage specialization with colonies.  One is best suited for research, another for ship building, another for mining, etc.  Are there any incentives for that in Aurora or is is best for each colony to be more self sufficient?
You often end up with specialised colonies for various reasons. Planets with a lot of minerals tend to become mining-focused, or with specific minerals may turn into an ordnance production facility or refining operation. The governor will have a major influence, so you might have a Adminstrator with a strong shipbuilding skill and you would concentrate your shipbuilding in that location. A planet with every mineral, even with low accessibility, is perfect for a fleet base because, once equipped with mines, it will supply all the ongoing maintenance you need for any type of ship.

Steve
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: A little colony/mining help please
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2010, 07:33:32 PM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "sloanjh"
BTW, with the new research rules, I haven't had any motivation to move research labs off Earth to the colonies - I can work on multiple projects while keeping them at home.
I have been thinking about that too. Not sure who gave me the idea but I am thinking about having certain astrographic locations that benefit research. A planet very close to a star, or the moon of a gas giant with a strong magnetic field, or a nebula system, or a very cold planet, etc. I need to give this some more thought but it would be cool to have research colonies in some weird and wonderful locations. It would also be better if different locations had benefits to different types of research.

Steve

Another thought along these lines when I saw Elmo's post about specialization: Agriculture.  Do you want to put food supplies into the game?

[stream of conciousness]

On the one hand, it would be lots of micromanagement to require the player to build "Farms" (the equivalent of mines or industrial installations), and then need to ship food between planets in the same way minerals are shipped.  This would argue in favor of managing it as part of the civilian sector: the civilians would manage creating farms and growing food. This is actually how it's modeled right now - there's even a special slot in the worker allocations called "agriculture and environment".

A side comment: the first thing I thought of when I read the question about specialization was "Colonies already specialize - they have different levels of the the various trade goods, and civie ships move trade goods from worlds with surpluses to worlds with deficits".

So the lowest level step would be to simply make food YATG (Yet Another Trade Good).  I don't like this though, since the various trade goods don't have any "flavor" to them at present - unlike minerals, "plastics" and "civilian transport" are identical in game terms.  Plus, there's no way to make colonization decisions based on the types of trade goods that will be produced - you only find out trade good levels after the population grows big enough.

How about food an intermediate level trade good (i.e. closer to behaving like minerals):  a world has a "food production efficiency" (similar to colonization cost) which can be found out either when the world is discovered or at the time of geo survey.  Like colonization cost, it can be improved by terraforming.  This would introduce the concepts of "barren" and "breadbasket" worlds.  Food itself should probably be managed as a trade good - shipped by civie contracts (although perhaps shipping my player-owned cargo ships would be allowed too).  Population growth on a world would by negatively affected by the ratio of food supply to food demand; if there were enough of a deficit then population would shrink and/or unrest would go up.  You could also introduce "orbital" (or ground-based) farms (similar to financial installations) as well which would boost food production on a world by a fixed amount (inflated or deflated by the production efficiency, of course).

A really interesting thought would be to decrease food production efficiency as the population density on a planet goes up.  So a high-population homeworld would be in danger of starvation and high unrest due to food shortages, and there would be an incentive to colonize/farm breadbasket worlds.

It seems like this sort of idea sets up food as an independent scarce resource in parallel with minerals, with all the tradeoffs and shortages (i.e. reasons for races to fight over territory) that you're trying to set up in Aurora, but as basically lying in the civilian sector.  It would also give a reason for planets to go into uncontrollable rebellion based on food shortages.

Hmmm typing the "civilian sector" stuff just now got me thinking about the civies setting up "civilian farm complexes" on habitable worlds....

[/stream of conciousness]

What do you think?

John
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: A little colony/mining help please
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2010, 09:25:38 AM »
Quote from: "sloanjh"
Another thought along these lines when I saw Elmo's post about specialization: Agriculture.  Do you want to put food supplies into the game?

[stream of conciousness]

On the one hand, it would be lots of micromanagement to require the player to build "Farms" (the equivalent of mines or industrial installations), and then need to ship food between planets in the same way minerals are shipped.  This would argue in favor of managing it as part of the civilian sector: the civilians would manage creating farms and growing food. This is actually how it's modeled right now - there's even a special slot in the worker allocations called "agriculture and environment".

A side comment: the first thing I thought of when I read the question about specialization was "Colonies already specialize - they have different levels of the the various trade goods, and civie ships move trade goods from worlds with surpluses to worlds with deficits".

So the lowest level step would be to simply make food YATG (Yet Another Trade Good).  I don't like this though, since the various trade goods don't have any "flavor" to them at present - unlike minerals, "plastics" and "civilian transport" are identical in game terms.  Plus, there's no way to make colonization decisions based on the types of trade goods that will be produced - you only find out trade good levels after the population grows big enough.

How about food an intermediate level trade good (i.e. closer to behaving like minerals):  a world has a "food production efficiency" (similar to colonization cost) which can be found out either when the world is discovered or at the time of geo survey.  Like colonization cost, it can be improved by terraforming.  This would introduce the concepts of "barren" and "breadbasket" worlds.  Food itself should probably be managed as a trade good - shipped by civie contracts (although perhaps shipping my player-owned cargo ships would be allowed too).  Population growth on a world would by negatively affected by the ratio of food supply to food demand; if there were enough of a deficit then population would shrink and/or unrest would go up.  You could also introduce "orbital" (or ground-based) farms (similar to financial installations) as well which would boost food production on a world by a fixed amount (inflated or deflated by the production efficiency, of course).

A really interesting thought would be to decrease food production efficiency as the population density on a planet goes up.  So a high-population homeworld would be in danger of starvation and high unrest due to food shortages, and there would be an incentive to colonize/farm breadbasket worlds.

It seems like this sort of idea sets up food as an independent scarce resource in parallel with minerals, with all the tradeoffs and shortages (i.e. reasons for races to fight over territory) that you're trying to set up in Aurora, but as basically lying in the civilian sector.  It would also give a reason for planets to go into uncontrollable rebellion based on food shortages.

Hmmm typing the "civilian sector" stuff just now got me thinking about the civies setting up "civilian farm complexes" on habitable worlds....

[/stream of conciousness]

What do you think?
As you mentioned, food is taken into account at the moment in terms of the agricultural sector. The proportion of the workforce assigned to this sector is higher on worlds with higher colony costs to account for the difficulty of food production. Making food an actual resource rather than an abstract concept would be a significant change for the game. I looked into food production very early on and found that it wasn't as big a deal as I thought. In the US, less than 3% of the workforce is involved in agriculture and the US is still a net exporter of food. That is how I derived the 5% agriculture & environmental percentage for an ideal habitable world, assuming a high tech, industrialised society.

I could convert that from an abstract figure into "farm" installations and perhaps have a fertility rating for difference planets, or perhaps require "hydroponic" installations for worlds with a colony cost > 0. In a sense though, the concept of hydroponics (from the Greek words hydro water and ponos labor if you are interested in etymology :)) is already built into the requirement for more infrastructure (which currently covers everything needed to make a hostile planet livable) and a larger agricultural sector on higher colony cost worlds.

So the bottom line is that I could do this but I am not sure if the greater complexity would lead to improved gameplay, bearing in mind that the requirement for infrastructure already covers some of the same ground. I am happy to listen to everyone's opinion though and I could add it if there is sufficient interest

Steve
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: A little colony/mining help please
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2010, 11:26:49 AM »
I think the Agriculture & Environment / Infrastructure system already in place adequately handles the topic, though I do admit I miss the idea of freighters full of 'food' plying the tradelanes.  As it currently stands empires ship farms around, instead of food, which feels a little awkward but not tremendously so.

I wouldn't want to a change that made colonization significantly more difficult.  Slightly would be okay, and I suppose if the new system gave me a compelling reason to build colonies where I otherwise wouldn't (Col Cost <2.0 worlds with little or not minerals, mineral-free asteroids maybe) that would be good.

So yeah, if the major effect of the new system is to further restrict the number of 'fantastic' colony sites then I vote no.  If it instead increases the number of 'good/great' colony sites, then I vote yes.
 

Offline welchbloke

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Re: A little colony/mining help please
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2010, 12:32:10 PM »
Personally, I'm happy with the current abstract model.  Any changes in this area would have to bring some seriously interesting gameplay for me to be in favour of it.
Welchbloke
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: A little colony/mining help please
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2010, 12:53:15 PM »
Quote from: "Father Tim"
I think the Agriculture & Environment / Infrastructure system already in place adequately handles the topic, though I do admit I miss the idea of freighters full of 'food' plying the tradelanes.
Agreed - the purpose of the suggestion was to give more reasons to colonize planets, not to increase the realism of the simulation.
Quote
As it currently stands empires ship farms around, instead of food, which feels a little awkward but not tremendously so.
Interesting point.  I'd always thought of infrastructure as being air domes, not hydroponic food vats.  Seen in this way, I guess the important question in terms of difficulty would be how many person-years a freighter full of food would last.  If it's several years for the number of people an equivalent load of infrastructure would support, then it won't be a big impact.  If it's several months, then it would be a huge impact.  I wouldn't want to make the change if it were a huge impact.
Quote
I wouldn't want to a change that made colonization significantly more difficult.  Slightly would be okay, and I suppose if the new system gave me a compelling reason to build colonies where I otherwise wouldn't (Col Cost <2.0 worlds with little or not minerals, mineral-free asteroids maybe) that would be good.
That (a reason to build more colonies) was the main purpose of the suggestion - to give a possible use for <2.0 worlds beyond mining or wealth/trade generation.  The difficulty would come in if you did too much colonization of barren worlds without finding any food producing worlds to colonize - similar to building to many SY if you haven't found any bodies to mine for Neutronium.
Quote
So yeah, if the major effect of the new system is to further restrict the number of 'fantastic' colony sites then I vote no.  If it instead increases the number of 'good/great' colony sites, then I vote yes.
I think it depends on your definition of "fantastic".  If it's "low colonization cost, plus everything needed by the economy" then it reduces the number of fantastic sites, since it would add "high food production" to "lots of minerals", and increases the number of "good" sites.  If it's "low colonization cost, plus high accessibility of a resource I need", then it might actually raise the number of fantastic sites, since high food productivity would be added to the list of resources (right next to minerals).

This reminds me of something I noticed last game - now that the civies are producing infrastructure, colony cost 2 worlds aren't actually much of a burden to colonize.  I view this as a good thing, since I think it's made colonization much easier (in the sense I think you're concerned about).

All the above being said, it doesn't sound like this idea has captured Steve's imagination.  I threw it out there on the chance he might say "aha!  That's a great enhancement to the trade/civie sector mechanisms".  Since he didn't, I don't want to push him in that direction, since I think his creativity needs to be engaged in order to make the idea work.  This is fine with me - that's why it's called a "suggestion" :-)

John
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: A little colony/mining help please
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2010, 01:11:24 PM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
As you mentioned, food is taken into account at the moment in terms of the agricultural sector. The proportion of the workforce assigned to this sector is higher on worlds with higher colony costs to account for the difficulty of food production. Making food an actual resource rather than an abstract concept would be a significant change for the game. I looked into food production very early on and found that it wasn't as big a deal as I thought. In the US, less than 3% of the workforce is involved in agriculture and the US is still a net exporter of food. That is how I derived the 5% agriculture & environmental percentage for an ideal habitable world, assuming a high tech, industrialised society.
Agreed in terms of population, which is why I would keep it in the civie sector (like "plastics"), rather than treating it like Duranium.  On the other hand, the food produced itself is an important component of a civilian economy (think of famines in North Korea or Africa).  That's the essence that I'd like to capture.
Quote
I could convert that from an abstract figure into "farm" installations and perhaps have a fertility rating for difference planets, or perhaps require "hydroponic" installations for worlds with a colony cost > 0. In a sense though, the concept of hydroponics (from the Greek words hydro water and ponos labor if you are interested in etymology :-) ) I'm suggesting that shortages of civie trade goods (like "plastics") have a negative impact on the economy, and that there's some way to tell before colonization that a particular world will be good at producing a particular trade good.  I just happened to think of "food" as an additional such trade good.

Quote
So the bottom line is that I could do this but I am not sure if the greater complexity would lead to improved gameplay, bearing in mind that the requirement for infrastructure already covers some of the same ground. I am happy to listen to everyone's opinion though and I could add it if there is sufficient interest

I'm not in favor of it as a mechanism for micromanaging food.  What I was going for (as described above) is a way of making potential colony sites valuable in a way other than mineral content.  If your head's focused on other aspects of Aurora right, now, that's fine - I just wanted to sow the seed....

John
 

Offline Elmo (OP)

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Re: A little colony/mining help please
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2010, 10:14:18 AM »
In my current game the civilian pop has established civilian mining colonies on Luna and Triton but they are not producing any minerals.  Do I need to put mass drivers there or do something to help them out?