Multiplayer discussion

[sublight]

Let me renew my interest as a player (or SM). 

So far, counting only 2014 interest, I see seven potential players so far, 6 when realizing someone will be SM. (alex_brunius, Panopticon, 3_1415, Sematary, Alfapiomega, Cripes Amighty, Sublight).

I'll second Erik's plan of division. Having 2-3 factions each controlled by 3-4 players with specific roles sounds like it would provide the best balance between playability, RP story telling, and personal involvement. I suspect delegating ships/responsibilities in abstract out over a larger player group would result in detached experience more akin to being in the peanut gallery of a Lets Play.

Also, am I the only one excited by the possibility of mixing 6.4 truce countdowns in with multiple player factions? An alternative corporation setting might have 2-3 international corporate factions each with a couple hundred million 'employees,' with the governing superpowers represented by 2-3 significantly larger NPRs on a truce countdown.

[Sematary]

If 6.4 is released by April and we still don't have someone who can be the SM, I could probably do it. I am not the best choice but I probably have the time.

[Cripes Amighty]

I also agree with Erik's suggestion. 2-3 empires consisting of 3-4 players would be best, although I think that the number of people per empire could vary. The only problem that might cause is loyalties and figuring out who has access to which subforum (if that's the format we go with).

6.4 is going to open up a lot of possibilities with these scenarios (at least it feels like it).

Should we start discussing scenarios already? Would 2-3 Earth empires make sense? Or maybe separate them throughout the Sol system like in Steve's current campaign? Or separate systems?

Personally, I don't like the separate systems as it limits contact at the very beginning. What do you guys think?

[Panopticon]

I support different planets, but within the same system

[sublight]

Different planets, same system usually works out ok.

Earth starts make civilian trade fast and profitable, make potential planetary combat extremely first-strike/MAD sensitive, and guarantee technological osmosis. While that might enhance some scenarios, this can be problematic for others.

Separate systems are ok for high tech starts, but low tech starts pretty much require same-system setups to avoid isolation issues.


It looks like half of us are willing to try the SM side.
Do we want to try to get 2 or 3 multi-player games running simultaneously?

[Sematary]

Different planets, same system usually works out ok.

Earth starts make civilian trade fast and profitable, make potential planetary combat extremely first-strike/MAD sensitive, and guarantee technological osmosis. While that might enhance some scenarios, this can be problematic for others.

Separate systems are ok for high tech starts, but low tech starts pretty much require same-system setups to avoid isolation issues.


It looks like half of us are willing to try the SM side.
Do we want to try to get 2 or 3 multi-player games running simultaneously?

Lets get one going first and then possibly more depending on how it goes. I am in favor of a start similar to Steve's current campaign for our first go.

[Cripes Amighty]

The more I think about it, the more I like same system, different planets. As does everyone else it looks like .

I guess some other things I've been wondering about that could easily be decided are:

• Would every empire be human? This probably depends more on the backstory, but sometimes too much background can mess with roleplaying.
• Conventional start or trans-newtonian? If trans-newtonian, what limit on RP should each empire have? Should they be restricted from researching Jump Point Theory?
• Are fleets already constructed? Limit on build points?
• Generally accepted laws of the universe? Jump gates or jump capable ships on jump points for FTL communications is really the only one I can think of.
• Number of starting facilities? Shipyards?

Personally, I don't see a problem with having different races, although I would imagine if we were using Sol, it would make sense to use humans. Not sure if anyone else was thinking of something different.

I'm all for an accelerated start though, meaning I think trans-newtonian and constructed fleets would be more fun. Conventional starts just seem too slow, even in single-player. I also think it would be cool to have RP and building point limits, but that they could be exchangeable.
    Ex. Starting RP 100,000 and Starting BP 10,000. Empires could exchange RP for BP at a rate of 1 BP = 10 RP, meaning that the players could come up with slightly different empires. One could be more technologically advanced at the start, but have a smaller fleet by converting their BP into RP. Or just the opposite.

I think something similar could be applied to the installation setup. Rather than give everyone the exact same facilities from the start, let them choose.
    Ex. Assigning 700 "Conventional Industry" that can immediately be exchanged 1 to 1 for any facility costing 120 regularly. This way, if an empire isn't pursuing a fighter strategy, they wouldn't be bogged down with a generic "50 fighter factories" or something similar. Shipyards could be the same way. Assign a standard Naval and Commercial shipyard amount that can be divided as required by each empire. Research facilities should probably be distributed evenly, unless some exchange was used like 20 conventional industry = 1 research facility. However, it could be horribly unbalanced...

These are just some thoughts, although I've probably gotten ahead of myself. Just had some spare time that wasn't being consumed and I threw myself into this.

[Panopticon]

Or possibly give each player a set amount of wealth and they can choose their starting facilities based on that.

[3_14159]

Starting in the same system has some disadvantages, for example the sensor complexity due to all happening in one single system. Civilians would be difficult, I imagine. This is something which, in my opinion, would stand for a connected-system-approach, for example with three to four player systems around a destroyed earth. With sol devoid of its best colony, there is less of a need for conflict there (though, if you up the mineral levels some, there'd still be some).
I'd prefer a trans-newtonian start; otherwise we have the problem of very boring turns in the beginning.

Now, an accelerated start sounds interesting. There was a game in which a buying system was done, but only for RPs. We might consider starting either with a certain number of CFs which we could, at a one:one ratio in construction points, exchange for others. This would then result in, for example, 1 Research Lab = 1 GFTF = 20CF = 20FF = 20Fuel Refineries = 20Ordnance factories = 20 mines = 20 automines = 8 DSTS.
Alternatively, we might assign a certain number of everything to every empire, and allow them to assign the construction of the last 5-10 years to whatever they want.

Also, things I'd very much like:

• Standing orders only - you cannot directly influence a battlegroup (unless, possibly, you are in command of that. That would require more players, though)
• Limited FTL - only colonies, orbital hapitats and possibly PDCs mount FTL com.
• Everyone is in contact with everyone from the beginning
• Limited communications, for example at maximum EMSensorStrength x 1000 x 10,000km range. Both must be in range for dual-com, and all communication (except if on the same position) is omni-directional and can be intercepted.
• Building and design cycles
• Solar system destroyed and outlying colonies are player-controlled; if so, all sol connections have jump gates.
• No NPRs, Spoilers etc. - everything is player- or SM-controlled
• Ideally, three or four factions, as this makes diplomacy more fun.

There is, lastly, another idea I had: Use the sol-destroyed start, and set the maximum number of systems so something small, for example 30-50 systems. This should make the end more... explosive, shall we say?

[Ektoras]

Count me in as a player (possible GM). 

I prefer same system with different planets start. System could be sol or a random one with one or more suns. It makes far more interesting game. Start should be trans-newtonian else most of the start will be dull. Players should have RP to choose techs (i think 20k-30k points would suffice) and some BP to have pre start ships and defenses.  A wealth based or conversion rate of conventional factory’s based system for industry buildings will give some difference in starting industries.

Different systems will need far more advanced tech than a single system.

[sublight]

The sensor check disadvantage for a single system is smaller than you would think. Remember, in multiplayer civilians are EVIL. As soon as they start trading the sensor checks come roaring back in full force to split-system starts.

• Pure conventional starts are too slow. Accelerated conventional starts can work.
• Any communication restrictions should be simple and easy for the SM to implement.
• Granting everyone diplomatic communication from the start would be a good thing.
• I'd suggest separate RP pools and BP pools, and allow the BP pool to be used for both PDC and additional Infrastructure.
• Eliminate or create custom rules for espionage teams.

Now, are people thinking pure-sandbox or having a driving theme?

• Ticking Time Bomb: Start with NPRs on Truce countdown.
• Cooling Sun. Better find a new home before the greenhouse gas cap hits.
• Invading Aliens under SM (or other player) control. Defend, build, then counterattack.
• Limited universe, limited real-estate. A race to find and claim the juiciest locations.
• Something else?

While a small system cap makes conflict outside of Sol easier, it will still likely be months in real life before jump point loops are established.

[Panopticon]

The sensor checks thing can be somewhat mitigated with enough DSTs for each faction that the entire system is covered, so nothing leaves sensor range, as for civilians i would probably say for the sake of simplicity that the SM either delete the lines when they pop up, or ruthlessly cull the amount of ships they have.

[Narmio]

I think it's probably easiest to design a simple, abstract system for inter-empire trade.  If two empires have trade agreements and no hostile powers have ships on the route between the two, then every quarter the SM can just give the two some money.  Intra-empire trade can be done away with completely. Or you could forget trade completely and still have fun.

It's a small sacrifice, I think, to make everyone's headaches a little easier. The loss of civilian colony ships and fuel harvesters is something that can be worked around.

[Sematary]

Starting in the same system has some disadvantages, for example the sensor complexity due to all happening in one single system. Civilians would be difficult, I imagine. This is something which, in my opinion, would stand for a connected-system-approach, for example with three to four player systems around a destroyed earth. With sol devoid of its best colony, there is less of a need for conflict there (though, if you up the mineral levels some, there'd still be some).

A destroyed Earth sounds interesting.

I'd prefer a trans-newtonian start; otherwise we have the problem of very boring turns in the beginning.

Agreed.

Now, an accelerated start sounds interesting. There was a game in which a buying system was done, but only for RPs. We might consider starting either with a certain number of CFs which we could, at a one:one ratio in construction points, exchange for others. This would then result in, for example, 1 Research Lab = 1 GFTF = 20CF = 20FF = 20Fuel Refineries = 20Ordnance factories = 20 mines = 20 automines = 8 DSTS.
Alternatively, we might assign a certain number of everything to every empire, and allow them to assign the construction of the last 5-10 years to whatever they want.

I like this idea, a lot actually.

Also, things I'd very much like:

• Standing orders only - you cannot directly influence a battlegroup (unless, possibly, you are in command of that. That would require more players, though)

I like a SOP idea with the ability to give some ships a mission and have that mission have specific orders that might go against SOP. To phrase it slightly differently, ships can have missions with set operating procedures but if they don't have those for a mission there is a default set. And how well a commanding officer follows those depends, at least partially, on his personality traits.

• Limited FTL - only colonies, orbital hapitats and possibly PDCs mount FTL com.
• Everyone is in contact with everyone from the beginning
• Limited communications, for example at maximum EMSensorStrength x 1000 x 10,000km range. Both must be in range for dual-com, and all communication (except if on the same position) is omni-directional and can be intercepted.

I like the first two points here. I do not like the third. Targeted messages that can be encoded have been something that is capable since the invention of fire I don't like the idea that it suddenly disappears. I would suggest that we have different ranges, so omnidirectional unencoded is the farthest, then targeted unencoded, omnidirectional encoded, targeted encoded. So omnidirectional unencoded has the EM sensor strength x 1,000 x 10,000km while targeted encoded has a range of say EM sensor strength x 200 x 10,000 km. So with EM sensors of 10 you get a range of 100,000,000 km for omnidirectional unencoded and 20,000,000 km for targeted encoded.

• Building and design cycles
• Solar system destroyed and outlying colonies are player-controlled; if so, all sol connections have jump gates.

I like this. Both would have to be fleshed out a bit of course but other than that it sounds great.

• No NPRs, Spoilers etc. - everything is player- or SM-controlled
• Ideally, three or four factions, as this makes diplomacy more fun.

I would like NPRs and at least precursors if only to add excitement and the unknown. Other reasons would be to give the players a reason to not just have a free for all blood bath in the Sol System, and a reason to ally. It also makes reckless expansion down your line of systems less advisable.

There is, lastly, another idea I had: Use the sol-destroyed start, and set the maximum number of systems so something small, for example 30-50 systems. This should make the end more... explosive, shall we say?

I don't like this. But to be fair I am all for this being a long game.

[Cripes Amighty]

I don't like the idea of separate systems. That takes away a lot of the empire interaction (which should be the point of a multiplayer game in the first place). As Panopticon said, the sensor problem could be cut down with enough DSTs. And civilians could probably be managed effectively enough so that they aren't a problem.

I just think that there should be something holding the empires together, or at least allow for more points of contact (or conflict) to make the game interesting. Connected systems provide too much incentive to expand down your own jump lane and guard the single jump point into Sol without any interaction. Even if there is a large mineral deposit in Sol, it can be too risky when everyone else is gunning for it. At that point it just feels like another single player game.

I also don't think NPRs should be taken out. As Sematary said, this can provide a rallying point for the empires to join together if the NPRs prove to be a true menace. Or, they might provide more opportunities in the form of technology, colonies, etc. This also reduces the amount of work an SM would have to do.

I also don't like the whole communication thing, just for sake of simplicity. It sounds good on paper (and it actually makes sense), but I think it's asking too much of the SM. The whole point of setting up one of these games is reducing the number of jobs and the complexity of those jobs that the SM must carry out. Otherwise we run into long periods of inactivity because the game ends up becoming too much work. That's not to say that SM controlled NPRs should be made impossible, just that it might be too much.

Other than that, I pretty much agree with everything else.