Mining Suns

[Starmantle]

I really like the idea.

Possibly some minority of stars might be surveyable/mineable with very low accessibility and huge reserves (possibly more sorium with better access than other minerals). 

Of course, it's challenging to think about what technological advances you'd need.  Maybe a special mining ship similar to an asteroid miner?  With some kind of mass driver built in? 

At any rate, it's interesting to think about.

[Lamandier]

I don't see the point. You can already mine planets and asteroids, and if you don't have enough minerals, you can expand into a new system. Besides, as it's been pointed out, a star won't have any elements a TN race would need, and handwaving a technobabble explanation for TN elements being present in a star honestly seems a little silly to me.

[xeryon]

The point would be: why not?

Truthfully, there are a number of systems already in place within Aurora that are counterproductive with regards to efficiency.  The point of the program is not to win but to enjoy loosing yourself in the story.  If a valid argument can be made to the feasibility of the project I believe it should be considered for implementation just because it would be interesting to do.

An interesting by-product of mineral extraction of a star might be increase or decrease in solar energy output.  Extract too many of the minerals and you might alter the environment of the entire system.

[Hydrofoil (OP)]

The point would be: why not?

Truthfully, there are a number of systems already in place within Aurora that are counterproductive with regards to efficiency.  The point of the program is not to win but to enjoy loosing yourself in the story.  If a valid argument can be made to the feasibility of the project I believe it should be considered for implementation just because it would be interesting to do.

An interesting by-product of mineral extraction of a star might be increase or decrease in solar energy output.  Extract too many of the minerals and you might alter the environment of the entire system.

Dear God ive started a debate ha ha my original thought was to give the systems with no planets some sort of usefulness but you have all brought up very very good points. I do mostly agree with the Why not statement though lmao its just cool to do and in the end the game is more about narrative and world building than anything else.

[Starmantle]

Given that TN minerals are themselves techno babble and they're just a way to hand-wave our way past Newtonian physics, it seems odd to me that people seem so sure that there aren't any in the sun when they seem perfectly willing to believe that they're on the moon. 

In short, stars make up a fantastic amount of the mass of a system.  To me, it sounds like it would be fun to be able to exploit them in some circumstances and with challenging accessibility and logistics. 

[Rich.h]

I can see how mining a star in an empty system would make for a great fueling station and thereby allowing for less fuel tanks to be used in designs.

[xeryon]

With high enough tech if you can mine a star why not a black hole as well? trans-newtonian physics already skirt around the existing known limitations of directly traveling faster than light.  If light cannot escape a black hole than with the aid of trans-newtonian elements and respective technologies I would think it would be plausible to extract materials from one.

Yes, it is all a theoretical stretch but in terms of rendering otherwise empty systems into something usable within the game I think the concept should be given full consideration on that basis alone.  There are few things in the game more disheartening than discovering a completely empty system.  Empty might be realistic but for a game empty is boring.

[Erik L]

If I recall, empty systems have a higher chance of JP. So you have JP nexuses. (nexi?)

[Lamandier]

"Why not" doesn't strike me as a legitimate reason to do something in and of itself. I don't think it's a particularly fun or cool idea, or that it would add anything to the internal story of a game. You can already suck sorium directly out of a gas giant, how many sources of minerals do you really need. This is supposed to be a 4X game, not an interstellar mining simulator. Personally, I find it more interesting to have to work around barren systems and keep expanding your empire to find new resources rather than be able to exploit every single stellar object out there. But YMMV, I guess.

(Also, considering that only dying stars have more than trace quantities of elements heavier than helium, and even said dying stars have very little of any elements heavier than iron, I don't find it unreasonable at all to believe that meaningful quantities of accessible TN elements would be present on the moon but not in a star.)

[Panopticon]

By using that logic though, you must hate the idea of TN elements being on comets in large amounts. You can probably make a better argument for stars than ice balls.

I don't personally see much advantage to stars being mineable, but it's a neat RP idea if nothing else.

[xeryon]

Why not isn't the reason.  It means I am asking you for providing the counter-argument.  

I propose that if it were to be implemented that the frequency of occurrence would be on par with most other system bodies.  In a given system, such as Sol, what percentage of the bodies contain minerals at all and how many of them contain minerals worth trying to mine?  If a similar ratio were applied to stars the number you could do something with would be fairly low.

[Lamandier]

By using that logic though, you must hate the idea of TN elements being on comets in large amounts. You can probably make a better argument for stars than ice balls.

You're comparing apples to oranges, not to mention putting words in my mouth.

I'll admit, given the handwaviness of the whole TN concept, there's no real reason to say TN elements wouldn't/couldn't be found in a star. But even if that were the case, how would you get at them in sufficient quantities to make the effort worthwhile?

At least minerals on a comet(or asteroid, or planet, or for that matter even the sorium in a gas giant) are fairly easily accessible by comparison. Whereas elements in the core of a main-sequence star, not so much. Add that onto the fact that, since metallic bonds are impossible to maintain inside a star, you'd be pulling elements out of a star atom by atom. Aurora measures mining output in tons per year; the sample mining ship on the wiki has an annual output of 375 tons(IIRC). That's a loooooooooot of atoms. Slow, inefficient, and dangerous is no way to mine for resources.

Why not isn't the reason.  It means I am asking you for providing the counter-argument. 

Considering that the arguments of those in favor of the idea basically seem to boil down to 'I think it sounds neat', I don't see why 'I don't think it sounds neat/I think it sounds silly/implausible' isn't a valid counter-argument. But, if that's not enough, see my last post and the first part of this one.

[swarm_sadist]

But even if that were the case, how would you get at them in sufficient quantities to make the effort worthwhile?

Dedicated star mining components on a starbase towed into position?

At least minerals on a comet(or asteroid, or planet, or for that matter even the sorium in a gas giant) are fairly easily accessible by comparison. Whereas elements in the core of a main-sequence star, not so much.

Given that Steve mentioned in his RP that TN Materials were found flowing in the crust of planets at completely even quantity, there is no reason to assume you'd have to go straight to the core to get these resources.

Add that onto the fact that, since metallic bonds are impossible to maintain inside a star, you'd be pulling elements out of a star atom by atom.

I don't think there are TN 'ores'. Otherwise one nation would run out of minerals while another nation could sit on their stash indefinitely.

Aurora measures mining output in tons per year; the sample mining ship on the wiki has an annual output of 375 tons(IIRC). That's a loooooooooot of atoms.

And you'll be mining all those atoms at once. Several tonnes worth at once in fact. There is no reason why you would mine a star atom-by-atom.

Slow, inefficient, and dangerous is no way to mine for resources.

It is if your running out elsewhere. Why bother mining Venus when it has 0.1 Ac? Because you need the resources.

Considering that the arguments of those in favor of the idea basically seem to boil down to 'I think it sounds neat', I don't see why 'I don't think it sounds neat/I think it sounds silly/implausible' isn't a valid counter-argument.

By adding to the game, even if mining stars is completely impractical compared to just expanding outwards, you add to the possible RP value of the game. Keeping this from the game would only work if it works against the game aesthetics, game balance or is too much effort for the game developer. I for one would not mind seeing a spoiler race mining stars.

But, if that's not enough, see my last post and the first part of this one.

...

[Panopticon]

Ooh, that would be cool, especially if you have consequences for doing it, like reduced output of the star or something. Would give more urgency for clearing out those spoilers.

[Lamandier]

Given that Steve mentioned in his RP that TN Materials were found flowing in the crust of planets at completely even quantity, there is no reason to assume you'd have to go straight to the core to get these resources.

Actually, yes there is, when you consider that any elements heavier than helium are going to be found at the core of a star.

I don't think there are TN 'ores'. Otherwise one nation would run out of minerals while another nation could sit on their stash indefinitely.

The word 'ore' is specifically used on the wiki. While I could see sorium as being a gas or a liquid, the rest? What else would they be? Pixie dust?

And you'll be mining all those atoms at once. Several tonnes worth at once in fact. There is no reason why you would mine a star atom-by-atom.

...There is if you're trying to extract tiny quantities of an element from something as large as a star. Maybe 'atom-by-atom' is a slight exaggeration, but I don't think by much.

It is if your running out elsewhere. Why bother mining Venus when it has 0.1 Ac? Because you need the resources.

Sure, but mining Venus isn't nearly as impractical. Especially if you're already strapped for resources.

By adding to the game, even if mining stars is completely impractical compared to just expanding outwards, you add to the possible RP value of the game. Keeping this from the game would only work if it works against the game aesthetics, game balance or is too much effort for the game developer.

I don't disagree with the sentiment from a general standpoint, but I hardly see mining stars being a vital feature. And I've seen a number of suggested features that would do far more to enhance the RP experience than this. I won't complain if the feature is added(and I actually kind of think it wouldn't be a terrible idea for a spoiler to be able to do it), but I would be disappointed if it came at the expense of, say, improvements to the crew/commanders system, to use an example from another thread.

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Right back atcha.