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Posted by: Coleslaw
« on: November 28, 2021, 05:36:47 PM »

Personally, I prefer the current rigid auto-promotion system as it gives the player an interesting challenge rather than simply bending to the player's will.

I personally find it less of a challenge and more of a nuisance, one which forces a player to adopt a command that they may not necessarily want to use, but this is a matter of perspective I suppose.  :P

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it is a simple mechanic to represent the career ambitions of your leaders - in a real military, your LCDRs and LTCs are not content to remain at their rank for 20 years just because you as the player have decided that it would make your life easier, to use an extreme example. The rigidity itself is not necessarily realistic but as a force to push upward mobility even if the player would prefer otherwise I think it works quite well for gameplay - modeling political pressures very simply without requiring a whole new political minigame mechanic is good design IMO.

I believe this is what the optional political reliability bonus is intended to represent, at least in part - all factors, excluding skill/bonuses, that have no tangible effect on an officer's command that can still get them promoted to a higher rank.

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IMO this makes the 4:1 ratio much more flexible and desirable for modeling a variety of rank structures, since you can have 4:1 formation command ratios which are not uncommon but equally well you can model 3:1 ratios and still have some extra commanders at most ranks who can be spun off for these more independent duties outside the main chain of command. With the 3:1 ranks I have always found it challenging to maintain a well-rounded OOB and also staff these more distributed commands without some rather convoluted structures.

I don't personally see how having to abide by a certain officer ratio is more flexible or desirable than officers automatically being promoted and assigned on an as-needed basis, which would quite literally accommodate any and all rank structures a player desires. If they have several formations requiring a certain higher rank, then good officers from the lower rank are promoted and assigned to fill the empty ranks. Realistically, they would find a competent and promising brigadier general and then promote them. Now, if a player wants to use the 4:1 ratio for whatever reason, that's fine, but they could still easily do so under a "promotions as officers are needed" model. The only difference is that promoting as needed, at the very least, seems infinitely more flexible to all players' needs and desires and, in my opinion, seems more logical - both in terms of reasonability, and, more importantly, fun. 

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I will also note in passing that we do have the option to promote officers manually, which is additional micromanagement but is an option nevertheless. In this case you can probably just promote from the top of the rank list once or twice a year to cut down on how much checking-up you need to do.

I would argue it is unnecessary micromanagement, and officers promoted this way are oftentimes not replaced upon perishing. If I have a pool of 400 majors, 100 colonels, 25 brigadier generals, but I need a total of 150 colonels and 50 brigadier generals, assuming 4:1 and 10 officers a year for one academy, I'm going to have to wait 40 years before the ratio naturally meets my army structure. This means that, for 40 years, I would have to monitor and manually promote officers in order to maintain the desired ranks of officers.

Another feature in this vein of promotion based on need would could also be a toggle for a certain rank to not automatically be promoted into. I don't really have a need for 4 Grand Admirals in my OOB

Well, if you only have 1 assignment available to the Grand Admiral rank, then an "assign as needed" model would only promote one person to Grand Admiral and promote no one else to the role, as there will be no further available assignments.

This system would completely minimize "officer waste" where you get too many officers of any rank above the lowest. At worst, you'd have too few of the lowest rank as they're constantly being picked for higher ranks, though this could be prevented by requiring a minimum time in rank or something similar. For example, a new major would have to remain a major for X years before they're eligible for promotion to colonel, then X years before they're eligible for promotion to brigadier general, then X years before they're eligible for major general, and so on.
Posted by: Impassive
« on: November 28, 2021, 04:59:32 PM »

Another feature in this vein of promotion based on need would could also be a toggle for a certain rank to not automatically be promoted into. I don't really have a need for 4 Grand Admirals in my OOB :)

Overall I would be keen for promotion as needed if it's not too complicated to adjust.
Posted by: Vandermeer
« on: November 28, 2021, 03:54:45 PM »

As it was part of the discussion: I was dreaming of control about officer promotion ratios since old Aurora. I would prefer 4:1 in general, but some of my games required a steep ranking throughput thanks to many sub ranks (e.g. starting with sub-lieutenant), while others were much more simple and could have gone with 7:1.(had a game with "7 divine generals" and one leader, Deus, modeled after Asura's Wrath's fleet. After that only lowly officers who didn't command much)
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: November 28, 2021, 03:44:53 PM »

Having an optional system that promote based on demand seem like something I would get behind. I also think that this is like most military actually work in real life as well. In the real world we obviously have allot more staff officers than what we do in Aurora, but that is beside the point.

I also would like a junior officer corp as well as a crew that you train. The junior offices would be assigned to ships based on the starting experience level of the ship, that way you could decide that some ships start with more officers than others for a higher basic experience level. You spend these crew pools differently and could set every ship class individual how many junior officer they will use.

I also would like crew to be more of an actual resource so we have drafting periods, that is crew will eventually be replaced and retire... Every time a military ship comes in for rest some percentage of the crew is replaced with new crew, lowering experience and fleet training to some degree. The more officers a ship have the more you will mitigate this drop in experience and fleet training.

The academy train crew and the officer corp, as crew and officer are retired you then need to maintain it. The pool is the crew and officers you have available AND who currently serve on your ships. This would make crew a more valuable resource, especially highly skilled and trained ones. You also can have policies such as service time that impact the retirement rate but also impact the cost in wealth to maintain it. The cost increase probably should be a bit more than linear, but in a crisis you might raise the service time and in peace time you lower it to save costs, the same with training level of the officer corps.

Commercial ships probably should only use conscripted crews in this model and be exempted from the military crew and officer corp model. No need to know when these crew retire or are replaced.

Some problems that I have, especially in pre-TN games with low tech progression you build up such a vast crew pool it is NEVER ever going to be a problem, even at the highest training level. In my current campaign I have nearly 50000 crew and that is at level 5 training while I have nearly no military ships built yet as I play on rather slow tech and survey speeds. If my academies instead maintained a level or pool my crew would be maintained the same over time depending on the number of academies that I have.
Posted by: Droll
« on: November 28, 2021, 03:14:39 PM »

Furthermore, it is somewhat realistic IMO, not so much because real militaries are so rigid but because it is a simple mechanic to represent the career ambitions of your leaders - in a real military, your LCDRs and LTCs are not content to remain at their rank for 20 years just because you as the player have decided that it would make your life easier, to use an extreme example.

IIRC that the US army uses this promotion points system (idk if they still do tbh). The whole point of which is to modify the difficulty of getting promotions based on demand. If there aren't enough sergeants for example, the required promotion points for corporals/specialists to get to sergeant goes up and vice versa. This results in many soldiers ending their military careers I imagine.

In aurora we don't use promotion points to this capacity so we can do something simpler and leverage the retirement mechanic instead. Officers who haven't been promoted in x-many years have a chance to retire which increases every year the longer they stay at the same rank. This means that your officer core will gravitate towards whatever structure you have organically and more realistically. You could make this less of a factor the higher up the command chain goes (or since we love micromanagement so much just use story character) so that generals leading armies aren't retiring because they are already at max rank and they want to go further beyond.

I'm not going to comment on the whole "challenge" aspect of officer (micro)management as clearly you enjoy it and I don't and there isn't anything to say besides that.

One thing to keep in mind is that you will not have neat ratios between ground force ranks especially for the lowest 2-3 ranks. When designing your OOB structure you have to account for various detachments - isolated garrison regiments, CON/GEO/XEN formations, STO battery commanders, and so on. Even at higher ranks you may have for example some independent Corps separated from the main Army or Theater HQs. IMO this makes the 4:1 ratio much more flexible and desirable for modeling a variety of rank structures, since you can have 4:1 formation command ratios which are not uncommon but equally well you can model 3:1 ratios and still have some extra commanders at most ranks who can be spun off for these more independent duties outside the main chain of command. With the 3:1 ranks I have always found it challenging to maintain a well-rounded OOB and also staff these more distributed commands without some rather convoluted structures.

I think there's been a misunderstanding here. No one here thinks that the 4:1 change is too flexible. I think we all agree that this is overall a good change, and so yeah the things you say here are accurate. The but the whole suggestion regarding "promote as needed" is an expansion of that which exemplifies all of the advantages you have correctly pointed out with the 4:1 change.
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: November 28, 2021, 02:59:08 PM »

Personally, I prefer the current rigid auto-promotion system as it gives the player an interesting challenge rather than simply bending to the player's will. This applies to both naval and ground forces. For naval commanders the automatic promotion ratio forces the player to consider how to balance the command ranks and number/types of command modules on their ship classes to maintain a well-staffed fleet. For ground forces this level of complexity is not there (and adding it would require some major rebalancing as ground commanders are currently a major limiting factor for ground forces unless you use really massive formations like 50,000+ tons) but we have the OOB feature which is not really present in the naval game. Furthermore, it is somewhat realistic IMO, not so much because real militaries are so rigid but because it is a simple mechanic to represent the career ambitions of your leaders - in a real military, your LCDRs and LTCs are not content to remain at their rank for 20 years just because you as the player have decided that it would make your life easier, to use an extreme example. The rigidity itself is not necessarily realistic but as a force to push upward mobility even if the player would prefer otherwise I think it works quite well for gameplay - modeling political pressures very simply without requiring a whole new political minigame mechanic is good design IMO.

One thing to keep in mind is that you will not have neat ratios between ground force ranks especially for the lowest 2-3 ranks. When designing your OOB structure you have to account for various detachments - isolated garrison regiments, CON/GEO/XEN formations, STO battery commanders, and so on. Even at higher ranks you may have for example some independent Corps separated from the main Army or Theater HQs. IMO this makes the 4:1 ratio much more flexible and desirable for modeling a variety of rank structures, since you can have 4:1 formation command ratios which are not uncommon but equally well you can model 3:1 ratios and still have some extra commanders at most ranks who can be spun off for these more independent duties outside the main chain of command. With the 3:1 ranks I have always found it challenging to maintain a well-rounded OOB and also staff these more distributed commands without some rather convoluted structures.

I will also note in passing that we do have the option to promote officers manually, which is additional micromanagement but is an option nevertheless. In this case you can probably just promote from the top of the rank list once or twice a year to cut down on how much checking-up you need to do.

The one downside is now I need to rework my planned ground forces structure for my v2.0 campaign... grumble grumble

Heed not the whinging of the grognard, for he actually likes this nonsense.  :P
Posted by: Droll
« on: November 28, 2021, 02:50:51 PM »

I wonder if just an option alongside auto-promotion saying "Auto-promote only as needed" would be useful. If I need a lot of lieutenant commanders but not many commanders, rather than the auto-promotion siphoning everything upwards into eternity, "Auto-promote only as needed" would only promote the couple of commanders to fill commander-required appointments and then cease. Likewise for ground forces. This, actually, in its own way would allow the player to specify their own "promotion formula", as promotions would only follow the available appointments in the player's OOB.

For example, let's say I have 4 battalions to one brigade, 4 brigades to one division, 4 divisions to one corps, and so one, then auto-promotion would effectively follow a 4-1 promotion formula. Whereas for another player who has, say, 2 battalions to a brigade, 2 brigades to a division, 2 to a corps, and so on, then their formula would effectively be 2-1.

This would also allow for more complex OOBs. 4 battalions in a brigade, 3 brigades to a division, 4 divisions to a corps, 2 corps to an army and have officers fill in as needed. You could then manual promote lets say a general to an academy and next production increment their old post is already filled.

Yes, agreed, the 4-4-4-4 thing was just for easy visualization. I, personally, don't see a reason as to why a rigid formula should be enforced to be quite honest. Now, I am just a layman so I could easily be wrong, but in my mind no real, sane military would unnecessarily promote talented lower level officers to higher ranks where they might not even be used just to have a neat pyramid of officers when they can just skim the cream of the crop from each rank as needed.

Finally, I will also say that this stuff could also apply to naval officers, though the problems of rigid officer hierarchy is often less extreme than in ground forces they are still present on the naval end.

Though for naval the main thing I think is missing is control over bridge crew allocation. I have a problem where my commercial ships will have priority over bridge crew assignments on combat ships. (Honestly an exclude class from auto-assignment button would also fix this problem)
Posted by: Coleslaw
« on: November 28, 2021, 02:44:41 PM »

I wonder if just an option alongside auto-promotion saying "Auto-promote only as needed" would be useful. If I need a lot of lieutenant commanders but not many commanders, rather than the auto-promotion siphoning everything upwards into eternity, "Auto-promote only as needed" would only promote the couple of commanders to fill commander-required appointments and then cease. Likewise for ground forces. This, actually, in its own way would allow the player to specify their own "promotion formula", as promotions would only follow the available appointments in the player's OOB.

For example, let's say I have 4 battalions to one brigade, 4 brigades to one division, 4 divisions to one corps, and so one, then auto-promotion would effectively follow a 4-1 promotion formula. Whereas for another player who has, say, 2 battalions to a brigade, 2 brigades to a division, 2 to a corps, and so on, then their formula would effectively be 2-1.

This would also allow for more complex OOBs. 4 battalions in a brigade, 3 brigades to a division, 4 divisions to a corps, 2 corps to an army and have officers fill in as needed. You could then manual promote lets say a general to an academy and next production increment their old post is already filled.

Yes, agreed, the 4-4-4-4 thing was just for easy visualization. I, personally, don't see a reason as to why a rigid formula should be enforced to be quite honest. Now, I am just a layman so I could easily be wrong, but in my mind no real, sane military would unnecessarily promote talented lower level officers to higher ranks where they might not even be used, depriving lower ranks of officers that they need, just to have a neat pyramid of officers when they can just skim the cream of the crop from each rank as needed.
Posted by: Droll
« on: November 28, 2021, 02:41:29 PM »

I wonder if just an option alongside auto-promotion saying "Auto-promote only as needed" would be useful. If I need a lot of lieutenant commanders but not many commanders, rather than the auto-promotion siphoning everything upwards into eternity, "Auto-promote only as needed" would only promote the couple of commanders to fill commander-required appointments and then cease. Likewise for ground forces. This, actually, in its own way would allow the player to specify their own "promotion formula", as promotions would only follow the available appointments in the player's OOB.

For example, let's say I have 4 battalions to one brigade, 4 brigades to one division, 4 divisions to one corps, and so one, then auto-promotion would effectively follow a 4-1 promotion formula. Whereas for another player who has, say, 2 battalions to a brigade, 2 brigades to a division, 2 to a corps, and so on, then their formula would effectively be 2-1.

This would also allow for more complex OOBs. 4 battalions in a brigade, 3 brigades to a division, 4 divisions to a corps, 2 corps to an army and have officers fill in as needed. You could then manual promote lets say a general to an academy and next production increment their old post is already filled.
Posted by: Coleslaw
« on: November 28, 2021, 02:38:30 PM »

I wonder if just an option alongside auto-promotion saying "Auto-promote only as needed" would be useful. If I need a lot of lieutenant commanders but not many commanders, rather than the auto-promotion siphoning everything upwards into eternity, "Auto-promote only as needed" would only promote the couple of commanders to fill commander-required appointments and then cease. Likewise for ground forces. This, actually, in its own way would allow the player to specify their own "promotion formula", as promotions would only follow the available appointments in the player's OOB.

For example, let's say I have 4 battalions to one brigade, 4 brigades to one division, 4 divisions to one corps, and so one, then auto-promotion would effectively follow a 4-1 promotion formula. Whereas for another player who has, say, 2 battalions to a brigade, 2 brigades to a division, 2 to a corps, and so on, then their formula would effectively be 2-1.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: November 28, 2021, 01:42:47 PM »

In regard to the ground forces ratio, I am tempted to go back to a 4-1 promotion ratio, but happy to take suggestions.

My suggestion is, in no uncertain terms, to do exactly this.

Back to 4-1 for v2.0. I may look at configuration options in the future.
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: November 28, 2021, 12:45:39 PM »

In regard to the ground forces ratio, I am tempted to go back to a 4-1 promotion ratio, but happy to take suggestions.

My suggestion is, in no uncertain terms, to do exactly this.
Posted by: LuuBluum
« on: November 28, 2021, 11:53:45 AM »

I'm going to double the number of officers produced by academies for v2.0, as there are a lot more positions available now. I'll keep the number of admin and scientists stable, so the increase will be in naval/ground.

In regard to the ground forces ratio, I am tempted to go back to a 4-1 promotion ratio, but happy to take suggestions.
I don't know how much work it would be, but I've seen it usually be a "X percentage of rank should be promoted each Y years". I don't know to what extent you could make that player-configurable per rank (including having ranks have no automatic promotion at all, if we so chose?), but I think at the very least having a configurable ratio, if not outright a configurable ratio per rank, would be ideal.

Icing on the cake would be the ability to specify the ratio to promote and how long they should serve before being promoted. Truly the best, most over-the-top would be ratio to promote, how long they've held that rank, and how long they've served overall. That would probably be a lot of work, though. Even going by rank might be too much.
Posted by: Droll
« on: November 28, 2021, 11:15:55 AM »

In regard to the ground forces ratio, I am tempted to go back to a 4-1 promotion ratio, but happy to take suggestions.

I prefer the 4-1 over the current 3-1 as it fits my current and probably future OOBs much better.

However I think for ground officers it might be a good idea for the player to configure the officer ratio to a limited capacity. Eg. having options in the race menu ranging from 2-1 to 5-1. Similar configuration could also be applied to naval officers as well. It's probably exploitable but it would grant people more freedom to play around with fleet and army hierarchies and overall structure.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: November 28, 2021, 11:10:37 AM »

I'm going to double the number of officers produced by academies for v2.0, as there are a lot more positions available now. I'll keep the number of admin and scientists stable, so the increase will be in naval/ground.

In regard to the ground forces ratio, I am tempted to go back to a 4-1 promotion ratio, but happy to take suggestions.