Diplomacy module

[Silverkeeper (OP)]

How does it work? I`m planning to put one in my geosurvey ships since they are likely to contact aliens.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg120024#msg120024

[boolybooly]

OK I have read diplomacy in the changes thread in particular ship sizes and am trying to work out how big my diplomacy ship can be.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg118318#msg118318

NPRs will treat ships without military engines that have not demonstrated any weapon capability as 10% of their normal tonnage. If at least one ship is detected, the minimum rating for Detected Ship Tonnage will be 1000 tons. ... NPRs deduct 10,000 tons from the tonnage of one Diplomatic Ship (see Part per system for threat purposes if that class type has never fired weapons and the Diplomatic Ship is in a non-Core system. If the NPR only has one system, it is not treated as core for this purpose.

Does that mean I can build a size 110kt diplomacy ship with commercial engines and no weapons or does it need to be 20kt ?

i.e. is it

10% * 110kt - 10kt = 1kt

or is it

(110kt-10kt) * 10% = 10kt ?
therefore
(20kt-10kt) * 10% = 1kt

Thats a 90kt difference, which is a lot of engines, armour and shields by which means to get out of Dodge in one piece if everything goes south.

TLDR, would NPRs deduct 10kt tonnage from commercial engine diplomacy ships before or after they reduce their effective tonnage to 10% ?

[skoormit]

...
Thats a 90kt difference, which is a lot of engines, armour and shields by which means to get out of Dodge in one piece if everything goes south.

TLDR, would NPRs deduct 10kt tonnage from commercial engine diplomacy ships before or after they reduce their effective tonnage to 10% ?

I can't answer your question with absolute certainty, but I would be shocked if Steve wanted the AI to ignore a 100kt diplomatic ship.

Also, you probably don't want to put shields on your diplo ship, since that would make it a military vessel, and therefore it would be subject to breakdowns and require maintenance.
There's really not much reason to make a diplo ship larger than 10kt.

[xenoscepter]

Geosurvey ships are already military ships...

[boolybooly]

I can't answer your question with absolute certainty, but I would be shocked if Steve wanted the AI to ignore a 100kt diplomatic ship.

Also, you probably don't want to put shields on your diplo ship, since that would make it a military vessel, and therefore it would be subject to breakdowns and require maintenance.
There's really not much reason to make a diplo ship larger than 10kt.

Those are interesting points but I think it would be a pity not to use the available opportunity a diplomatic ship provides, I am a bit of a noob so cannot speak with great authority but that seems like half the fun to me.

Like Russian "trawlers" of the cold war you can hide ELINT modules in a diplomacy module ship (which makes it military for maintenance anyway) and get intel on the target race for a minimal diplomatic hit, if not diplomatic inprovement, because you get the diplomacy and commercial engine deductions on size penalties for diplomacy and can field an ELINT ship without causing trouble and hopefully add in a diplomatic commander to improve relations rather than sour them.

Coupled to which, if the alien is a xenophobe you would want your service personnel to have a reasonable chance to survive if they were attacked, so speed  enough to make an escape is worth adding which with commercial engines requires a large one and including passive defence that takes it well over 10kt already.

Whichever way the calc is made  a 20kt diplomat with commercial engines will be treated as the minimum rated ship size for sure. So may as well use it all to best effect IMHO.

[xenoscepter]

ELINT on a Diplomatic ship? Sounds like someone is on a diplomatic mission to Alderaan... 

[skoormit]

I can't answer your question with absolute certainty, but I would be shocked if Steve wanted the AI to ignore a 100kt diplomatic ship.

Also, you probably don't want to put shields on your diplo ship, since that would make it a military vessel, and therefore it would be subject to breakdowns and require maintenance.
There's really not much reason to make a diplo ship larger than 10kt.

Those are interesting points but I think it would be a pity not to use the available opportunity a diplomatic ship provides, I am a bit of a noob so cannot speak with great authority but that seems like half the fun to me.

Like Russian "trawlers" of the cold war you can hide ELINT modules in a diplomacy module ship (which makes it military for maintenance anyway) and get intel on the target race for a minimal diplomatic hit, if not diplomatic inprovement, because you get the diplomacy and commercial engine deductions on size penalties for diplomacy and can field an ELINT ship without causing trouble and hopefully add in a diplomatic commander to improve relations rather than sour them.

Coupled to which, if the alien is a xenophobe you would want your service personnel to have a reasonable chance to survive if they were attacked, so speed  enough to make an escape is worth adding which with commercial engines requires a large one and including passive defence that takes it well over 10kt already.

Whichever way the calc is made  a 20kt diplomat with commercial engines will be treated as the minimum rated ship size for sure. So may as well use it all to best effect IMHO.

I mean, yes, you could do that.
But you can already field an ELINT ship without causing any trouble.
With not much research into thermal shielding, it is trivial to spy on alien populations without being seen.

My own diplo ship is 70% engine. It's just a diplo module, three 50-ton scanners, engines, and fuel. Just over 7kt total. I don't see any reason to make the ship bigger just because I can do so without taking an additional diplomatic penalty. I would rather have a cost-effective ship that is well suited for its mission, which is to sit in one place and talk to aliens without making them mad.
It's only going to survive an attack if it can outrun it, but that's true even if I add token armor and/or point defense.
And it's not going to get much faster by using more/bigger engines.
It's only going to get much faster by using more powerful (and expensive) engines, which would make it a military ship, which makes production more costly (because naval shipyard instead of commercial) and means I have to pay for ongoing maintenance.

[boolybooly]

I mean, yes, you could do that.
But you can already field an ELINT ship without causing any trouble.
With not much research into thermal shielding, it is trivial to spy on alien populations without being seen.

My own diplo ship is 70% engine. It's just a diplo module, three 50-ton scanners, engines, and fuel. Just over 7kt total. I don't see any reason to make the ship bigger just because I can do so without taking an additional diplomatic penalty. I would rather have a cost-effective ship that is well suited for its mission, which is to sit in one place and talk to aliens without making them mad.
It's only going to survive an attack if it can outrun it, but that's true even if I add token armor and/or point defense.
And it's not going to get much faster by using more/bigger engines.
It's only going to get much faster by using more powerful (and expensive) engines, which would make it a military ship, which makes production more costly (because naval shipyard instead of commercial) and means I have to pay for ongoing maintenance.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to play as they wish, of course.

I have not actually encountered an NPR since I have been learning the ropes with Precursors and kept the NPR chances on the 25% mark (which is about to change to 100% as its time to meet one), so my ELINT development has been modelled on trying to spy on several Precursor systems and they can see my tiniest ELINT 14 well before it gets into range for spying, (which does little good anyway with them but it is practice re game mechanics) and suggests that an ELINT ship <800t, transponders off and no active scan with 25% thermal reduction engines with sig5 for 1300km/s and lower approach speeds of 100km/s reducing the Th sig to <1 doesnt work, because their sensors can pick up even this low sig tiniest possible craft and their response is unequivocal attack with missiles at 20-30m km -ish before ELINT 14 can even detect the active sensor which they must be using to target the ship.

What you say about NPRs must be due to a different situation compared to Precursors. It probably isnt better ELINT as I cannot seem to research better than 14. Maybe the NPR has much worse sensors or the NPR has detected the ELINT ship but has not reacted to it which can happen if the threat level is low because it is not a secondary system.

[Jorgen_CAB]

There is no problem with using military ships for Diplomacy as you will not need that many of them and combining them with ELINT are quite useful as you can do both at the same time or even double them as spy ships. As long as the ship have commercial engines and not too big all if fine... like this one.

Code: [Select]

Senator class Diplomatic Ship      8,200 tons       183 Crew       1,065.1 BP       TCS 164    TH 175    EM 0
3049 km/s      Armour 1-36       Shields 0-0       HTK 47      Sensors 8/55/0/0      DCR 11      PPV 0
Maint Life 5.45 Years     MSP 1,493    AFR 49%    IFR 0.7%    1YR 84    5YR 1,267    Max Repair 300 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 125 tons     
Captain    Control Rating 1   BRG   DIP   
Intended Deployment Time: 48 months    Flight Crew Berths 20    Morale Check Required   

Commercial Ion Drive  EP500.00-35% (1)    Power 500.0    Fuel Use 3.75%    Signature 175.0000    Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 103,000 Litres    Range 60.3 billion km (228 days at full power)

Active Search Sensor AS39-R100 (1)     GPS 2100     Range 39.8m km    Resolution 100
EM Sensor EM5-55 (1)     Sensitivity 55     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  58.6m km
Thermal Sensor TH1.0-8.0 (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22.4m km
ELINT Module (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  19.4m km

I always have one or two 10kt military yards meant for more obscure ship designs anyway so there is no problem to build a few of these in any typical fleet even if it is generally easier to make them commercial I will find more use of these in general for other purposes than just diplomacy.