Author Topic: MaxTech Corvette for Anti-Missile Work.  (Read 893 times)

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Offline xenoscepter (OP)

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MaxTech Corvette for Anti-Missile Work.
« on: September 22, 2021, 02:31:02 AM »
Code: [Select]
F/DT Template class Corvette (P)      3,125 tons       75 Crew       7,065.4 BP       TCS 62    TH 1,250    EM 0
20003 km/s      Armour 3-19       Shields 0-0       HTK 26      Sensors 15/15/0/0      DCR 3      PPV 8.4
Maint Life 9.37 Years     MSP 4,593    AFR 24%    IFR 0.3%    1YR 94    5YR 1,416    Max Repair 4375 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 50 months    Morale Check Required   

T1250-100T Photonic Drive, Class 1250/0-50C (1)    Power 1250    Fuel Use 1.12%    Signature 1250    Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 497,000 Litres    Range 2,560.9 billion km (1481 days at full power)

Class 1 Naval Laser, 10cm Standard-Type (Single Turret Mount) (1x1)    Range 360,000km     TS: 100000 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 120,000 km    ROF 5       
T75/25-60K Gauss Cannon, Class 8 (Single Turret Mount) (2x8)    Range 60,000km     TS: 100000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 60,000 km    ROF 5       
T200/1.4M-TS100K(SW) Beam FCS, Naval Grade (1)     Max Range: 1,400,000 km   TS: 100,000 km/s     99 99 98 97 96 96 95 94 94 93
T35/245K-TS100K(SW) Beam FCS, Naval Grade (2)     Max Range: 245,000 km   TS: 100,000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 76 71 67 63 59
T7/3-0B60 Vacuum Energy Power Plant (1)     Total Power Output 3    Exp 30%

T30/180-75R1 Active Sensor Suite, Naval Grade (1)     GPS 108     Range 50.8m km    MCR 4.6m km    Resolution 1
Military Sensor Calibrator [EM] (1)     Sensitivity 15     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  30.6m km
Military Sensor Calibrator [TH] (1)     Sensitivity 15     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  30.6m km

Small Craft ECCM-5 (3)

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

 - The final Speed, fuel and deployment times for this ship are still under development; the F/DT Template stands for Fuel/Deployment Time Template and represents a mock up of those capabilities. A faster new engine, less fuel and/or deployment time is very likely to help it match the ships it is intended to escort, but this is the working prototype.

 --- Now with that all said, this design is part of my MaxTech game and is envisioned as an escort craft for Anti-Missile duty primarily. It is designed to also work somewhat in the Anti-Fighter role for destroying Store-Brand Zerg and other such fighter-spamming ilk. It will die horribly to fighter spam, doubly so if un-supported, but this configuration allows not only for some redundancy in the FCS, but also allow it to take out one or two enemy fighters before they eat it... should the need arise. This design would use it's 10cm Laser to "reach out" a little bit and soften the incoming salvo, while the pair of Single Gauss turrets would engage at roughly the last moment. These ships will be used en masse and often in support of organic fleet PD rather than as the primary source of PD for the fleet. Maintenance life is meant to be quite high, as these ships will likely be filling the role of escort for logistics ships as well, providing defense against light attacks and ensuring the otherwise defenseless ships would be able to shoot back against skirmishers and harassers. Such ships would have a CIWS or few to help ward off missiles, and good armor to soak some strikes, the corvettes are more there to stop, or at least make more costly, the engagement of said logistics ships by enemy fighters.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: MaxTech Corvette for Anti-Missile Work.
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2021, 10:54:11 AM »
I am having trouble understanding the goal of this "MaxTech" series. Is the idea to develop a RP setting or to experiment with what are the most effective ways to deploy MaxTech in a fleet setting? Much of the description seems to suggest the former, but the last post about the three-fighter doctrine concluded that it was an ineffective doctrine which suggests the latter. This going to say, I dont think that a 3k ton escort corvette class has very much place as the escort role is better performed by a larger ship that can get the most benefit from the maximum tech levels.

Armor is far too little, even a single MaxTech warhead getting through will turn this ship into dust. With the high level of MaxTech armor I think it is possible to get many more layers and still have a reasonable design. Frankly this would need to happen from reducing the extreme F/DT/ML times and to design the ship for an actual purpose instead of as a theoretical "working prototype". A prototype IMO should still be designed with its purpose in mind so it can be evaluated properly. No ship in Aurora needs 2.5 trillion km range.

The entire propulsion system is frankly terrible. 50% engine multiplier? Why the insistence on a commercial engine for a military vessel? Even for escorting a logistics train, just send a jump-equipped ship along with the escorts, MaxTech jump drives are small and their costs scales only with size so this isn't a heavy burden on the fleet. Engine + fuel combined are 35/62 HS, why even build a ship that can spare so little tonnage for anything else? And then overload it with F/DT/ML? It's just an extremely wasteful design when MaxTech offers so much more potential.

I think with a larger ship there is a lot more potential not just to mount more PD weapons but to exploit MaxTech more fully. Armor, shields, cloaking devices, max ECM, you have a lot of tools to make your ships as difficult to target and kill as possible and counter the dominant fighter-launched missile strategy which are not seeing use here.
 

Offline bdub1

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Re: MaxTech Corvette for Anti-Missile Work.
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2021, 12:37:01 PM »
To be honest, i agree with the above, 2.5 trillion km is excessive, and, that commercial engine probably woulnt cut it at these tech levels.
As for Anti-Missile Work
IF youre fighting an equivalent tech enemy you can and will get missiles much, much faster tan 100kkps
As well, youll only get one shot at said volley because theyll transverse your wole range in less than a second anyway, so the difference in range between the laser and Gauss wouldnt make too much of a difference (i believe, but im not quite sure how the FDF actually works.
At this point it'd probably be better to go with an AMM build as missile tech is insane at this point.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: MaxTech Corvette for Anti-Missile Work.
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2021, 01:09:11 PM »
At this point it'd probably be better to go with an AMM build as missile tech is insane at this point.

This is 100% true, because it turns out that you can pretty easily develop a size-1 AMM which is able to guarantee >100% hit chance against any missile (or indeed any target at all) - including ECCM. Actually this is possible even at earlier tech levels once you have high enough Agility tech, and gets a bit weird as you approach MaxTech due to the 0.9*c hard speed limit in Aurora.

Ironically this means that missile tech is nearly worthless as you approach MaxTech because AMMs will simply dominate everything, so ASMs become useless. You still need AMMs to counter enemy AMMs while closing into beam range (or do you? With enough high-tech armor and shields they may not be a big threat) but ultimately engagements are being decided by beam fire at this tech level. It is up for player interpretation whether this result is "unbalanced" because Steve did not design Aurora for MaxTech, or simply the logical evolution of Aurora mechanics to their conclusion.

Either way it means that doctrines need to be radically reconsidered at such extreme tech levels, and previously exotic technologies such as cloaking and electronic warfare become dominant considerations as empires seek an edge to break the AMM + beams tactical stalemate.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: MaxTech Corvette for Anti-Missile Work.
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2021, 02:08:55 PM »
Cloaking is very useful even on non-stealth ships as it directly reduces the active sensor lock range of the enemy to ASM missile lock ranges. At 99.5% reduction most of your main capital warships will have an active signature of 50 tons, rendering any active not on resolution 1 practically worthless. This either massively drives up uridium cost and sensor tonnage, or severely gimps the range at which the enemy can engage you.

Other than that follows the acceptance that as stated already AMMs can have 100% hit chance against everything - including themselves. This means that fighters are effectively obsolete with an exception to missile stealth bombers firing AMMs of their own as no level of speed will grant survivability against AMMs.

So the doctrines you end up with become heavy gauss PD with a beam primary. Which is probably going to be laser or particle beam.

So my advice regarding the initial corvette design is this:
Armor is garbage and needs to be much more if you expect equal tech opponents
No shields really sucks, since at this tech level they are an important layer to your defense
For a ship that small photonic drive should be pushing 30000 km/s to keep up with equal tech hostiles (cannot rely on speed for survivability though)
Laser PD at this tech level is worthless next to gauss so I would swap the laser for a gauss or give the ship a larger caliber anti-ship laser as a self-defense option (hard for a ship this small)
2.5 trillion km fuel range is mad. 20bn-50bn range is what I recommend.
Small-craft ECCM is inadequate if you expect equal tech (ECM 10) and you should use Compact ECCM-10. You can also try adding ECM-10 to your ship but the enemy can probably negate that easily.
Deployment time can go way down to 12-18 months.
No CIC on a gauss PD ship is a big sad.
Consider cloak to limit the range at which enemy ships can pelt missiles at it.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: MaxTech Corvette for Anti-Missile Work.
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2021, 03:54:23 PM »
Yes... go and design some ASM and AMM with max tech... ASM are completely pointless at this level as the agility on AMM are absurdly high... you easily get 100% hit rate against any decently fast ASM with speeds at about 270.000 km/s (max speed for missiles)... yes 100% intercept chance and that is WITH an ECCM 10 sensor in that AMM as well.

With Gauss you get 100.000 km/s tracking and probably can raise that to 150-170 kkm/s with tracking bonus and then you add CIC and officer bonus and crew grade to the mix... you probably end up at 60-70% hit rate with PD at this level against a 270.000 (max speed for missiles) km/s ASM. With 8 shots per Gauss that is a loosing battle for ASM as well, even box launched in small sizes will struggle.

Max technology is all about Beam combat and maybe launching some powerful missiles strikes at point blank range. But considering that Beam combat ranges start at almost 1.5 million km point blank really is not point blank anymore.

ASM
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 5.00 MSP  (12.500 Tons)     Warhead: 30    Radiation Damage: 30    Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 270,000 km/s     Fuel: 1,250     Flight Time: 11 minutes     Range: 171.07m km
ECM Modifier: 100%     ECCM Modifier: 100%
Cost Per Missile: 51.25     Development Cost: 5,125
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 2700%   3k km/s 900%   5k km/s 540%   10k km/s 270%

AMM
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1.000 MSP  (2.5000 Tons)     Warhead: 1    Radiation Damage: 1    Manoeuvre Rating: 100
Speed: 270,000 km/s     Fuel: 100     Flight Time: 28.7 seconds     Range: 7,749,000 km
ECCM Modifier: 100%
Cost Per Missile: 13.813     Development Cost: 1,381
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 27000%   3k km/s 9000%   5k km/s 5400%   10k km/s 2700%


If Steve did not cap the speed at 270.000 then max tech would easily put missiles way above light speed... so in my opinion the tech breaks down at these levels and probably should not be used seriously.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 04:34:26 PM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: MaxTech Corvette for Anti-Missile Work.
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2021, 04:48:07 PM »
Cloaking is very useful even on non-stealth ships as it directly reduces the active sensor lock range of the enemy to ASM missile lock ranges. At 99.5% reduction most of your main capital warships will have an active signature of 50 tons, rendering any active not on resolution 1 practically worthless. This either massively drives up uridium cost and sensor tonnage, or severely gimps the range at which the enemy can engage you.

Given that at max technology a size 1 res 1 sensor will spot 50t at 65mkm and at the modest size of 10 do so at 200mkm I don't think it will be that expensive to be honest. you also only get your 10k ship down to 50t anything bigger will have a bigger size than that and will at that level be seen at huge distances... much longer than you will fire missiles anyway most of the time.
 

Offline bdub1

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Re: MaxTech Corvette for Anti-Missile Work.
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2021, 09:09:53 PM »
I generally agree with the above.
To take use of these, here's a possible design i threw together from my own max tech game.
There may be things you want to change, of course, but heres an outline of wat you could do, assuming an end tonnage goal of 5 kt.


(Edit as i'd forgotten an AMSS)
Code: [Select]
Nurnberg class Frigate      5,000 tons       170 Crew       7,814.8 BP       TCS 0    TH 3,300    EM 1,050
33002 km/s      Armour 15-26       Shields 35-140       HTK 45      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 33      PPV 6
Maint Life 3.30 Years     MSP 2,935    AFR 67%    IFR 0.9%    1YR 407    5YR 6,112    Max Repair 1800 MSP
Magazine 196   
Kapitan zur See    Control Rating 4   BRG   AUX   ENG   CIC   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Clausen-Lussky Marine Photonic Drive  EP3300.00 (1)    Power 3300    Fuel Use 24.73%    Signature 3300    Explosion 16%
Fuel Capacity 335,000 Litres    Range 48.8 billion km (17 days at full power)
Brinz-Landesmann Defence Technologies Tau S35 / R140 Shields (1)     Recharge Time 140 seconds (0.3 per second)

Schaefer-Altdorf Armaments Size 1 Missile Launcher (75.00% Reduction) (8)     Missile Size: 1    Rate of Fire 5
Miller Sensor Systems Missile Fire Control FC185-R1 (5%) (2)     Range 185.4m km    Resolution 1
Stolz AMM (196)    Speed: 270,000 km/s    End: 0.6m     Range: 9.5m km    WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 7380/4428/2214

Steig Electronics Industries Active Search Sensor AS207-R1 (1)     GPS 1800     Range 207.3m km    MCR 18.7m km    Resolution 1
Cloaking Device: Class cross-section reduced to 0.500% of normal

Compact ECCM-10 (2)         ECM 100
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 09:13:24 PM by bdub1 »
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: MaxTech Corvette for Anti-Missile Work.
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2021, 10:43:23 PM »
ship

This is an excellent design that will accomplish the purpose exactly, ton for ton. The only quibble I can make is that the ENG and CIC modules are extraneous and I would probably omit them to eliminate strain on my officer corps. The CIC is unnecessary as you can easily get 100% or better CTH with the missile design alone, while the ENG is just a difficult position to fill when added to small ships you will build many of - maybe less so if you tweak your rank structure accordingly and do not use fighters very much.
 

Offline bdub1

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Re: MaxTech Corvette for Anti-Missile Work.
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2021, 12:57:11 AM »
ship

This is an excellent design that will accomplish the purpose exactly, ton for ton. The only quibble I can make is that the ENG and CIC modules are extraneous and I would probably omit them to eliminate strain on my officer corps. The CIC is unnecessary as you can easily get 100% or better CTH with the missile design alone, while the ENG is just a difficult position to fill when added to small ships you will build many of - maybe less so if you tweak your rank structure accordingly and do not use fighters very much.

Ah, alright, makes sense
Id probably swap those out for either another shield module, or more fuel and armour, but, thanks
In this one i dont really use many fighters, mostly as ppv, although the experiments with tiny cloaks might change  things, hmm
anyway, thanks
As well, the german rank structure has a few lower ranks, so it might not be too bad, especially with the robust, 3 planet spanning academies i have, but still
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 12:58:46 AM by bdub1 »
 

Offline Droll

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Re: MaxTech Corvette for Anti-Missile Work.
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2021, 12:08:01 PM »
ship

This is an excellent design that will accomplish the purpose exactly, ton for ton. The only quibble I can make is that the ENG and CIC modules are extraneous and I would probably omit them to eliminate strain on my officer corps. The CIC is unnecessary as you can easily get 100% or better CTH with the missile design alone, while the ENG is just a difficult position to fill when added to small ships you will build many of - maybe less so if you tweak your rank structure accordingly and do not use fighters very much.

Ah, alright, makes sense
Id probably swap those out for either another shield module, or more fuel and armour, but, thanks
In this one i dont really use many fighters, mostly as ppv, although the experiments with tiny cloaks might change  things, hmm
anyway, thanks
As well, the german rank structure has a few lower ranks, so it might not be too bad, especially with the robust, 3 planet spanning academies i have, but still

The only thing that concerns me is the fact that 196 ammo for AMMs seems a little low. Then again you only have 8 launchers so it would take a while to empty the magazines.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: MaxTech Corvette for Anti-Missile Work.
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2021, 12:38:44 PM »
The only thing that concerns me is the fact that 196 ammo for AMMs seems a little low. Then again you only have 8 launchers so it would take a while to empty the magazines.

With MaxTech you can count on a 100% hit rate, which greatly reduces the needed capacity compared to, say, Ion or MP tech when you expect 1/3 or 1/4 hit rates depending on the opponent and their missile doctrine. The equivalent at those tech levels would be something like 600 magazine capacity.

If anything this ship could probably afford to mount one or two more launchers and drop some magazine space in place of the removed command modules, since you only need about ~12-15 shots per launcher to break even with box-launched AMMs and this design has just enough sensor/MFC capability to launch that many missiles against a box-launched ASM swarm without retreating to gain time. However this would be akin to two chess engines arguing about whether a won position is +19.526 or +19.467, it doesn't matter because the game is already over. Extra capacity for a strategic reserve is not a bad idea anyways.
 

Offline kilo

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Re: MaxTech Corvette for Anti-Missile Work.
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2021, 01:25:24 PM »
If I was in your shoes, I would try to find out how much range I can achieve with my AMMs, while still having 100% kill rate against ASMs. This can be used to break box launcher spam, as for every 1.35M km of additional range, your ASM launchers will be able to launch 1 additional salvo. I do not know the limiting factor here though. Sensor range might be too limited and require a sensor picket between the two fleets.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: MaxTech Corvette for Anti-Missile Work.
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2021, 01:51:35 PM »
If I was in your shoes, I would try to find out how much range I can achieve with my AMMs, while still having 100% kill rate against ASMs. This can be used to break box launcher spam, as for every 1.35M km of additional range, your ASM launchers will be able to launch 1 additional salvo. I do not know the limiting factor here though. Sensor range might be too limited and require a sensor picket between the two fleets.

The range actually works out just about perfectly, as he can fire off about 13 or 14 AMM salvos before any enemy missile can cross the sensor envelope, note the 18.7m km MCR on the active sensor which is the limiting factor in this case. This works out in favor of the non-box launchers, since box launchers for size-1 missiles are 7.5 tons each so ten of them will take 75 tons, while a full-size AMM launcher and half a magazine also come out to 75 tons and ten missiles, beyond this point rapid-fire launchers + magazines are more efficient than box launchers as long as you have the sensor range to fire those missiles, which this ship does with a comfortable buffer of 304 extra salvos. More time can be gained by retreating as well, maybe 1-2 more salvos depending on the break points.

The missile range incidentally is also well-optimized as it is just over half the MCR, perfect to intercept with the first salvo at just about half the MCR envelope. This is why I said earlier that the design is excellent as it is very precisely tuned to accomplish the mission (aside from unnecessary officer modules).
 

Offline bdub1

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Re: MaxTech Corvette for Anti-Missile Work.
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2021, 06:47:09 PM »
Alright, if taken your suggestions into account (and i relised i did not have max tech shields)
So heres the adjusted design i guess, and uh, ig for once wat seemed logical actually world out in aurora
thanks
anyway, here goes
and perhaps i shhould make a longer ranged AMM, but for larger PD ships... hmm.... yeah i think i have a healthy excess in 100% th chance vs 270kkps missiles, os i probably could
As for limits, it is active sensors in this case i believe, as the AMSS is 500 tons already.
As for efficiency vs box launchers, he is right, as even with a reduction to 37.5 tons, they still maintain their 5 sec reload.

 
Code: [Select]
Nurnberg class Frigate      5,000 tons       154 Crew       7,830.7 BP       TCS 0    TH 3,300    EM 3,180
33002 km/s      Armour 15-26       Shields 106-212       HTK 45      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 33      PPV 7.5
Maint Life 3.30 Years     MSP 2,941    AFR 67%    IFR 0.9%    1YR 410    5YR 6,143    Max Repair 1800 MSP
Magazine 198   
Fregattankapitan    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Clausen-Lussky Marine Photonic Drive  EP3300.00 (1)    Power 3300    Fuel Use 24.73%    Signature 3300    Explosion 16%
Fuel Capacity 350,000 Litres    Range 51 billion km (17 days at full power)
Friedl Defence Omega S53 / R212 Shields (2)     Recharge Time 212 seconds (0.5 per second)

Schaefer-Altdorf Armaments Size 1 Missile Launcher (75.00% Reduction) (10)     Missile Size: 1    Rate of Fire 5
Miller Sensor Systems Missile Fire Control FC185-R1 (5%) (2)     Range 185.4m km    Resolution 1
Stolz AMM (198)    Speed: 270,000 km/s    End: 0.6m     Range: 9.5m km    WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 7380/4428/2214

Steig Electronics Industries Active Search Sensor AS207-R1 (1)     GPS 1800     Range 207.3m km    MCR 18.7m km    Resolution 1
Cloaking Device: Class cross-section reduced to 0.500% of normal

Compact ECCM-10 (2)         ECM 100
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 06:49:20 PM by bdub1 »