Author Topic: Cold War Comments Thread  (Read 30822 times)

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Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #495 on: November 15, 2021, 08:48:29 AM »
Have the D'Bringi forgotten about their long ago benefactors or is it a matter of ongoing concern and investigation for them?
I assume they didn't tell anyone else in the Alliance about them?

The latest action has gone low tech, it feels a bit like the old days of the Soviets vs the Coalition.

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The Khozuni ships efficiently hunted down and killed the sensor and comms buoys at the warp point and then set out for the inner system.
Don't the sensor and comms buoys have some way of detecting the attacking ships?

They do.  The sensor buoy will detect the ships, and report it to the comms buoy, which will report the contact up the chain to the Sector HQ.  It seems that the Sector HQ is not aware of any reports of contacts.  Hmmmm...

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Khozuni Imperial Guard
Using technology transferred from their benefactors, the Khozuni fielded this class.  The science instruments were thrown into the design at the last minute to make the class a hybrid warship-explorer design, but as used, the science instruments were little more than expensive armor for the ship. 
I kind of understand why you would want a hybrid design if you have a limited number of hulls, but the Khozun were given a bunch of shipyards, so they can just build dedicated explorer ships, rather than making their warships more expensive. On the other hand the Khozuni Raider seems to be more cost effective than the Chriq Woden (it is 33% larger but only costs 23% more) so they are doing something right.

I couldn't remember why I threw the X into the design to begin with, so I had to come up with something to say when I wrote up the design.  I think I wanted the Khozun to have the ability to explore if they wanted to do so, but it wasn't going to be their primary focus. 

Kurt
 
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Offline misanthropope

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #496 on: November 15, 2021, 08:51:47 AM »
fighters are so fast and potent, they kind of unavoidably hog any maneuver-based niche that opens up. in my view that's the real death of the BC
 

Offline Migi

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #497 on: November 15, 2021, 09:19:24 AM »
Have the D'Bringi forgotten about their long ago benefactors or is it a matter of ongoing concern and investigation for them?
I assume they didn't tell anyone else in the Alliance about them?

The latest action has gone low tech, it feels a bit like the old days of the Soviets vs the Coalition.

Quote
The Khozuni ships efficiently hunted down and killed the sensor and comms buoys at the warp point and then set out for the inner system.
Don't the sensor and comms buoys have some way of detecting the attacking ships?

They do.  The sensor buoy will detect the ships, and report it to the comms buoy, which will report the contact up the chain to the Sector HQ.  It seems that the Sector HQ is not aware of any reports of contacts.  Hmmmm...

Very odd...

Quote
Quote
Quote
Khozuni Imperial Guard
Using technology transferred from their benefactors, the Khozuni fielded this class.  The science instruments were thrown into the design at the last minute to make the class a hybrid warship-explorer design, but as used, the science instruments were little more than expensive armor for the ship. 
I kind of understand why you would want a hybrid design if you have a limited number of hulls, but the Khozun were given a bunch of shipyards, so they can just build dedicated explorer ships, rather than making their warships more expensive. On the other hand the Khozuni Raider seems to be more cost effective than the Chriq Woden (it is 33% larger but only costs 23% more) so they are doing something right.

I couldn't remember why I threw the X into the design to begin with, so I had to come up with something to say when I wrote up the design.  I think I wanted the Khozun to have the ability to explore if they wanted to do so, but it wasn't going to be their primary focus. 

Kurt
::)  Maybe they are planning ahead and don't want to rely on the mysterious benefactors? I guess the Khozun Emperor might be sneaky as well as arrogant?
After posting it occurred to me that it might be to do with the cost of designing a new ship, you mentioned it is significant for an SD, but presumably less so for a small ship.
 

Offline Migi

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #498 on: November 21, 2021, 07:31:31 PM »
Well it seems the Khozuni are going to be a threat to the galactic community for even less time than I expected.
Blowing up the lifeboats seems a bit harsh.
Does Starfire have rules for overcrowding from collecting survivors?
Also is there a concept of sensor resolution to detect fighters or are ships expected to have the better sensors by the time fighters are developed?
 

Offline TheTalkingMeowth

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #499 on: November 21, 2021, 09:54:47 PM »
Blowing up the lifeboats seems a bit harsh.
And nuking the imperial capitol isn't? Seems like these mystery bois are firm believers in Soviet retirement packages.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #500 on: November 21, 2021, 10:29:56 PM »
Seems like these mysterious benefactors want to play God but don't want the hassle of worshipers on Sundays, so to speak anyways.

As other commenters have noted the connection with the generous D'Bringi benefactors who imposed the strange condition that they should only use commercial engines, I am curious about this race now - particularly since they have seemingly disappeared from the D'Bringi sphere of perceptions with nary a scolding word about their new philosophies about engines.
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #501 on: November 22, 2021, 08:19:30 AM »
Well it seems the Khozuni are going to be a threat to the galactic community for even less time than I expected.
Blowing up the lifeboats seems a bit harsh.
Does Starfire have rules for overcrowding from collecting survivors?
Also is there a concept of sensor resolution to detect fighters or are ships expected to have the better sensors by the time fighters are developed?

Being in deep space the pods were very unlikely to be found, but in any case, dead crewpersons tell no tales.  The unknowns obviously believe in being better safe than sorry. 

As for overcrowding, yes, there are combat negatives if you have too many survivors on your ship and not enough quarters to hold them. 

Inherent ship sensors, which were all that the Khozuni had, can detect small craft and fighters at 20 hexes, or five light seconds.  Of course, those same sensors can only detect large units, like ships, at a range of 30 tac hexes, or 7.5 light seconds.  Low tech, pre long-range scanner races are really blundering around in the dark most of the time. 

3rd Ed Starfire has a problem with sensors.  Up to HT3, ships can see only barely farther than their weapons can fire, out to 30 tac hexes, like the Khozuni.  Once a race reaches HT3, though, they can develop the Xr, or long-range scanners.  The Xr has been derisively called the all-seeing eye, as it suddenly, in one massive technological leap, expands a ships ability to see another ship from 7.5 light seconds to a full 72 light MINUTES!  And then, after that, there are no further tech advances in detection capability.  Third Ed., Revised, added Xrs, but this is a combat system, smaller than the standard Xr, intended to allow a ship to target other ships out to the limits of weapons capability at that tech level.  Cloaking comes along at a higher tech level, making the situation complicated again, but there are no further advances in sensor tech, which is weird and not very realistic.  Before starting this campaign, I played around with modding the Xr, so that Xr0 could only see out to, say, 30 light seconds, with each later variant adding some range.  I'd have to figure out how to add tech systems to SA, though, and the more you play around with SA's databases, the more finicky it gets. 

Kurt

 
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Offline Shinanygnz

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #502 on: November 22, 2021, 11:03:58 AM »
Well it seems the Khozuni are going to be a threat to the galactic community for even less time than I expected.
Blowing up the lifeboats seems a bit harsh.
Does Starfire have rules for overcrowding from collecting survivors?
Also is there a concept of sensor resolution to detect fighters or are ships expected to have the better sensors by the time fighters are developed?

Being in deep space the pods were very unlikely to be found, but in any case, dead crewpersons tell no tales.  The unknowns obviously believe in being better safe than sorry. 

As for overcrowding, yes, there are combat negatives if you have too many survivors on your ship and not enough quarters to hold them. 

Inherent ship sensors, which were all that the Khozuni had, can detect small craft and fighters at 20 hexes, or five light seconds.  Of course, those same sensors can only detect large units, like ships, at a range of 30 tac hexes, or 7.5 light seconds.  Low tech, pre long-range scanner races are really blundering around in the dark most of the time. 

3rd Ed Starfire has a problem with sensors.  Up to HT3, ships can see only barely farther than their weapons can fire, out to 30 tac hexes, like the Khozuni.  Once a race reaches HT3, though, they can develop the Xr, or long-range scanners.  The Xr has been derisively called the all-seeing eye, as it suddenly, in one massive technological leap, expands a ships ability to see another ship from 7.5 light seconds to a full 72 light MINUTES!  And then, after that, there are no further tech advances in detection capability.  Third Ed., Revised, added Xrs, but this is a combat system, smaller than the standard Xr, intended to allow a ship to target other ships out to the limits of weapons capability at that tech level.  Cloaking comes along at a higher tech level, making the situation complicated again, but there are no further advances in sensor tech, which is weird and not very realistic.  Before starting this campaign, I played around with modding the Xr, so that Xr0 could only see out to, say, 30 light seconds, with each later variant adding some range.  I'd have to figure out how to add tech systems to SA, though, and the more you play around with SA's databases, the more finicky it gets. 

Kurt

I played around with an Xc like method.  An Xr can see out to 2 system hexes, another installation adds 2 more, then the third gets you the full 6 range, but you can only have one for every 20 HS of ship.  I also added Y (as per 4th) as tactical scanners, essentially Xrs
 

Offline Migi

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #503 on: November 26, 2021, 11:23:31 AM »
I'm not really clear how valuable the ships are to the Bjering, are they giving away a valuable resource or are the ships relatively valueless?

I thought the Bedu refugees kept some of the freighters to use for themselves, did the Bjering give those ships as well, or did they only give the ones they had ownership of? Do the Mintek know about or care about the discrepancy?

It seems to me that the Bjering had a strong claim to the ships by signed contract, the Mintek argument 'they originally belonged to a government that we conquered' is weaker. In that case handing them all over (not even part) under threat of war is essentially giving in to blackmail, and the Bjering should be worried about encouraging that behaviour, and the Tomsk should be worried about how solid any Bjering guarantees are.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #504 on: November 26, 2021, 11:53:57 AM »
I think it works out for all parties involved which is a rare good thing in diplomacy. The Bedu CFN ships were not of much use to the Bjering but the Bedu exiles could not support them either, so it makes sense to use them as a trade token to stay on the Mintek good side and, frankly, to do a humanitarian (Beduitarian?) favor for the Bedu in Mintek territory. Meanwhile despite the apparent concession no Bjering guarantee has been abrogated, as the Bedu exiles remain free with that fraction of their ships which were kept for themselves. I am sure that if the exiles keep any small part of the CFN after this trade, the Mintek will know about it as they have done some exhaustive tallying, but as long as they get most of the CFN back and can stabilize the Bedu economy and their own I think they will be satisfied. Ultimately neither party wants a war, the Mintek are overstretched and the Bjering prefer not to be involved in the affairs of other major powers.
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #505 on: November 26, 2021, 03:29:42 PM »
I'm not really clear how valuable the ships are to the Bjering, are they giving away a valuable resource or are the ships relatively valueless?

They had some value, as the Bjering added them to their government CFN pool, so they were creating income every turn, and boosting the Bjering state's capacity for moving colonists around.  It just wasn't near enough value to make the Bjering go to war to keep it.  I forget how much the income was, but it was fairly small compared to their overall income. 

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I thought the Bedu refugees kept some of the freighters to use for themselves, did the Bjering give those ships as well, or did they only give the ones they had ownership of? Do the Mintek know about or care about the discrepancy?

The Bjering gave them all that they had, and the refugees did indeed keep a couple for themselves.  The Mintek know about the discrepancy, but as it is only three freighters, out of hundreds, they aren't too concerned.  They paid a one-time fee for their replacement and moved on with life.  Three freighters certainly weren't worth going to war over when their border was being probed, and their economy was on the verge of collapse.  They got really lucky with the Bedu, and they know it. 

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It seems to me that the Bjering had a strong claim to the ships by signed contract, the Mintek argument 'they originally belonged to a government that we conquered' is weaker. In that case handing them all over (not even part) under threat of war is essentially giving in to blackmail, and the Bjering should be worried about encouraging that behaviour, and the Tomsk should be worried about how solid any Bjering guarantees are.

The strength of the claim aside, the Bjering didn't feel that they were worth going to war over.  And, to be honest, the refugee's claim to the entire freight network of their nation was shaky as well.  The Mintek could make and did make a credible claim for needing the freighters to prevent a deadly economic collapse throughout the Bedu territories.  There aren't really rules for that, just that the economy won't function until the freighters are replaced.  Since the Bedu did it to themselves, from the Mintek point of view, they'd be justified in just letting the Bedu starve, especially since there was no way they could actually pay to replace that many freighters. 
 
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Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #506 on: November 26, 2021, 03:30:56 PM »
I think it works out for all parties involved which is a rare good thing in diplomacy. The Bedu CFN ships were not of much use to the Bjering but the Bedu exiles could not support them either, so it makes sense to use them as a trade token to stay on the Mintek good side and, frankly, to do a humanitarian (Beduitarian?) favor for the Bedu in Mintek territory. Meanwhile despite the apparent concession no Bjering guarantee has been abrogated, as the Bedu exiles remain free with that fraction of their ships which were kept for themselves. I am sure that if the exiles keep any small part of the CFN after this trade, the Mintek will know about it as they have done some exhaustive tallying, but as long as they get most of the CFN back and can stabilize the Bedu economy and their own I think they will be satisfied. Ultimately neither party wants a war, the Mintek are overstretched and the Bjering prefer not to be involved in the affairs of other major powers.

Pretty much spot on!
 

Offline Migi

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #507 on: November 26, 2021, 06:28:52 PM »
Isn't the true worth of the ships the cost it takes for the Mintek to replace them? Is that cost significant for the Bjering? Could they have been sold to boost the economy? As the Bjering economy expands, won't they need to build ships which they just recently had gotten for free, costing them in the long run?

It seemed like the Bjering had leverage. They knew (or could reasonably infer) the Mintek were in a bad economic position without the ships. To regain the ships by fighting would take time and cost money, for supplies and to repair and replace warships, even if they won.

The Bjering could have asked for compensation, or given them half the transports back rather than all of them. Or they could have demanded some sort of non-aggression treaty, or non-contact treaty, or the right to keep scouts on the Mintek side of the boarder.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #508 on: November 26, 2021, 07:04:24 PM »
It seemed like the Bjering had leverage. They knew (or could reasonably infer) the Mintek were in a bad economic position without the ships. To regain the ships by fighting would take time and cost money, for supplies and to repair and replace warships, even if they won.

The Bjering did not know whether or not the Mintek could actually prosecute a war against them, but given that they had recently conquered the Bedu it was reasonable to infer that the Mintek could do so if they wanted to. Compared to the cost of such a war, the turning over of many superfluous transports (and I assume outdated, but I don't know how Starfire handles these) was the least bad option and a cost the Bjering were willing to pay to preserve their fleet.

Fog of War - or perhaps Fog of Peace? - is a tricky thing. Until they cut off negotiations, the Bjering had no idea how the Mintek would respond to such a thing, and they were fortunate that the Mintek were not terribly upset when communications were stopped.
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #509 on: December 25, 2021, 10:42:17 AM »
Merry Christmas to all! 

Cold War will return, although it may be in the new year.  In the meantime, I'll be posting a small update on the Mintek and their current endeavors. 

Kurt
 
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