On what should I be putting Cargo Shuttle Bays?

[Panpiper (OP)]

Right now I have a cargo shuttle bay on my battlecruisers. The idea was that they would help with them resupplying themselves. It dawns on me however that this is an assumption. Does perhaps only the 'source' of supplies need Cargo Shuttle Bays, not the destination? Do Cargo Shuttle 'Stations' fulfil much the same function on planetary surfaces, or is that spaceports? Just how many of these things should I be using in which cases?

[nuclearslurpee]

Freighters (Cargo Bays)
Colony Ships (Cryo modules)
Supply Ships (MSP bays)
Troop Ships (Troop Transport Bays)

These always go on the ship which is doing the transferring, not the ship which is having something transferred to it.

I admit I'm not entirely sure how the mechanics work if you have e.g. a cargo shuttle on your warship but not your supply ship - I believe it would not work, based on what else I know about these mechanics. However it is incredibly wasteful to place such a component on your warship even if it would work. On one hand, you're wasting tonnage on every military ship that needs to be resupplied that should be used for armor, weapons, etc. On the other hand, there's no reason not to place the cargo shuttles on the supply ship if for no other reason than to ensure that it can always supply a ship even if that ship doesn't have a shuttle bay (e.g. a small scout ship would never want to have a shuttle bay as it would be a crippling waste of tonnage).

[Panpiper (OP)]

I'm more than a little bit unclear as to the exact functional difference between spaceports and cargo stations. Cargo stations are a lot quicker to build than spaceports and don't require a million population to work. Do they fulfil the same function, but maybe cargo stations do it at a much lower rate?

[nuclearslurpee]

I'm more than a little bit unclear as to the exact functional difference between spaceports and cargo stations. Cargo stations are a lot quicker to build than spaceports and don't require a million population to work. Do they fulfil the same function, but maybe cargo stations do it at a much lower rate?

Spaceports do everything: cargo shuttling, refuelling, ordnance transfer, all in one module. They are cheaper to build (and, as a single module, easier to tug around) than all three individual stations but require population. The wiki also indicates that multiple spaceports can give the added benefit of reducing the time for these operations - even just one spaceport loads in 1/2 the time, two spaceports cuts the time to 1/3, three cuts to 1/4, and so on. As far as I can read, there is no indication that the individual logistics stations can do this.

The use case is that spaceports are best for developed worlds with large populations as they are cheaper to build than all three logistics stations together, and can be stacked to improve logistics (valuable when you are using very large commercial ships later in the game - there is a 125,000 ton cargo bay for a reason!). The individual logistics stations are best used for small/frontier colonies or fleet depots when you don't have the population to support a spaceport, or if you don't need a full set of three stations (most commonly you would omit the ordnance station in the early game for a beam-focused fleet).

@Froggiest: You needed to link the C# version of the wiki page, which does not have a specific Spaceport page but lists it among all the installations.

[TheTalkingMeowth]

I'm more than a little bit unclear as to the exact functional difference between spaceports and cargo stations. Cargo stations are a lot quicker to build than spaceports and don't require a million population to work. Do they fulfil the same function, but maybe cargo stations do it at a much lower rate?

One big deal is that you MUST have a spaceport at a colony if you want the colony to build orbital stations using industry.

[Jorgen_CAB]

One thing is that Spaceports no longer stack, they simply count as a single cargo bay but can service any number of ships simultaneously. http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg105591#msg105591

I most often put a space station on my major colony of every system as this colony then can act as a supply and refuel location. Most other colonies usually just get a Cargo Station. The other reason for the Cargo Station is that it does not need any population so is good for any supply and refuel point that don't have any population.

[TheTalkingMeowth]

One thing is that Spaceports no longer stack, they simply count as a single cargo bay but can service any number of ships simultaneously. http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg105591#msg105591

I most often put a space station on my major colony of every system as this colony then can act as a supply and resupply location. Most other colonies usually just get a Cargo Station. The other reason for the Cargo Station is that it does not need any population so is good for any supply and refuel point that don't have any population.

Just to be absolutely clear, a cargo shuttle station cannot refuel ships. There is a separate installation for that.

A spaceport, on the other hand, CAN refuel as well as handling cargo.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Just to be absolutely clear, a cargo shuttle station cannot refuel ships. There is a separate installation for that.

A spaceport, on the other hand, CAN refuel as well as handling cargo.

I just pointed out that I use Cargo Station on Supply and Refuel locations that don't have any population. You need a Refuelling Station to refuel ships and an Ordnance station to restock ship missile ammunition.

If you want a colony with population to act as a resupply and refuel location you should probably put a Spaceport there.

[nuclearslurpee]

One thing is that Spaceports no longer stack, they simply count as a single cargo bay but can service any number of ships simultaneously. http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg105591#msg105591

Per the wiki Spaceports do in fact "stack" in that multiple do reduce logistics operation rates. As this is the C# wiki page I would like to assume it is correct but there is no source post linked. However I do note that the wiki has the correct BP cost from the DB, and glancing through the changes thread indicates that the Spaceport changed quite a bit during development into its final form; on the other hand the "stacking" mechanic was from VB6 so I wouldn't be surprised if that was copied over and never fixed.

Anyone have hard data about this?

[TMaekler]

Per the wiki Spaceports do in fact "stack" in that multiple do reduce logistics operation rates. As this is the C# wiki page I would like to assume it is correct but there is no source post linked. However I do note that the wiki has the correct BP cost from the DB, and glancing through the changes thread indicates that the Spaceport changed quite a bit during development into its final form; on the other hand the "stacking" mechanic was from VB6 so I wouldn't be surprised if that was copied over and never fixed.

If I am reading Steves post correct using a Spaceport AND a Cargo Shuttle Bay means: no stacking effect.
On the other hand using TWO Cargo Shuttle Bays OR TWO Spaceports means: YES, they stack.

Basically if you have a spaceport on the planet AND one Cargo Shuttle Bay on a ship it would be the same loading and unloading time as if there was only a spaceport OR only a Cargo Shuttle Bay on the ship.

But I would need to go in game to verify.

[xenoscepter]

Cargo Shuttle Stations and Cargo Shuttle Bays DO stack, Spaceports AFAIK do not. These are useful for loading and unloading MSP, as the Cargo Shuttles stack with the Maintenance Facilities.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Cargo Shuttle Stations and Cargo Shuttle Bays DO stack, Spaceports AFAIK do not. These are useful for loading and unloading MSP, as the Cargo Shuttles stack with the Maintenance Facilities.

According to Steve that I referenced above then Cargo Stations don't stack, if they do it probably is a bug. I have not checked if they do.

[TMaekler]

Yeah, Steve should look at his code and see if everything works as planned and maybe give us a more specific explanation as to what stacks and what does and should not.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Yeah, Steve should look at his code and see if everything works as planned and maybe give us a more specific explanation as to what stacks and what does and should not.

It is easy to check if it stack or not... if it do we should just submit a bug for it.

For example Troopp transports don't currently need Cargo Bays to load/unload troops even if they should, so that is a bug.

[Jorgen_CAB]

I just did some clinical test of this so we can all be sure how it works and it seem to work exactly as Steve said and intended.

Cargo Stations and Spaceports do NOT stack...

Cargo Bays stack, they even stack with the Cargo Stations and Spaceports. So a single Cargo Bay loading at a colony with a Cargo Station will load and unload twice as fast.

One effect is that ships with smaller cargo hold will be significantly more effective in terms of loading/unloading cargo while larger ships are cheaper and cost slightly less fuel to haul the same mass. Such as these two ships...

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Adelaide class Cargo Ship      51,840 tons       227 Crew       803.6 BP       TCS 1,037    TH 2,500    EM 0
2411 km/s      Armour 1-123       Shields 0-0       HTK 61      Sensors 4/4/0/0      DCR 1      PPV 0
MSP 9    Max Repair 100.000 MSP
Cargo 25,000    Cargo Shuttle Multiplier 1   
Squire    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months   

Commercial Ion Drive  EP500.00 (5)    Power 2500.0    Fuel Use 1.92%    Signature 500.00    Explosion 4%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 45.2 billion km (217 days at full power)

EM Sensor EM0.4-4.4 (1)     Sensitivity 4.4     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  16.6m km
Thermal Sensor TH0.4-4.4 (1)     Sensitivity 4.4     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  16.6m km

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

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Australia class Cargo Ship      257,247 tons       1,077 Crew       3,535.1 BP       TCS 5,145    TH 12,500    EM 0
2429 km/s      Armour 1-360       Shields 0-0       HTK 296      Sensors 4/4/0/0      DCR 1      PPV 0
MSP 8    Max Repair 200 MSP
Cargo 125,000    Cargo Shuttle Multiplier 5   
Squire    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months   

Commercial Ion Drive  EP500.00 (25)    Power 12500.0    Fuel Use 1.92%    Signature 500.00    Explosion 4%
Fuel Capacity 1,250,000 Litres    Range 45.5 billion km (217 days at full power)

EM Sensor EM0.4-4.4 (1)     Sensitivity 4.4     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  16.6m km
Thermal Sensor TH0.4-4.4 (1)     Sensitivity 4.4     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  16.6m km

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
Five of the first ships will load roughly 40% faster than the second larger ship if a station is present. The reason is that each of the four smaller ships get assistance individually. But in general loading and unloading is still fast enough that I think the total cost involved for producing the ships is more important. In this case 3553 versus 4018 BP. You probably could throw in a few extra Cargo Shuttle bays in the larger ship to make the difference in loading marginal and still get a cheaper version of the larger one.

Important to note however is that adding cargo shuttle bays have a diminishing return and the speed reduction will often impact the rate at which you deliver goods, so be careful. If you make short trips, say deliver goods in Sol at the start of the game then loading times will be more important, when a round trip are more like a 6-12 months then speed is way more important. More speed also means that any installation you deliver will be inactive for less time.

Use large cargo ships for long runs and small cargo ships for shorter runs, that makes best use of either type. This also seem to fit very good with how I build my cargo ships... I usually have them in cargo sizes of 5000, 10.000, 25.000 and 125.000. I have 5000t mineral haulers that have no Cargo Bays at all, they rely solely on Cargo Stations and Spaceport and is only used to deliver minerals to colonies. I use 10.000t cargo ships with jump drives to support starting colonies with infrastructures, these are as fast as I can make them and I also have a matching colony ship type as well. 25.000t cargo ship are my mid size freighters that deliver most stuff at shorter distances one or two system max then the large 125kt cargo hold ships as the main work horse for long distance hauling.