Author Topic: Ground Invasion - What is normal?  (Read 1116 times)

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Offline Lemmingwave (OP)

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Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« on: May 14, 2021, 04:12:04 PM »
Hey All,

question - is it normal that I am regularly faced with oppising ground unit forces of more than 200,000 tons? How do you win these invasions? With the additional bonus from fortifications I see myself sometimes throw 5-7 times the amount of tonnage at these units and they still barely make a dent (maybe they kill 50,000 tons or so).   What are your normal invasion force sizes?

I normally attack with a mixture of infantry (ca.   60% of my force), light vehicles (ca.   20%) and heavy vehicles (20%).   Logistics support is in light and with individual infantry in each subformation. 
 

Online Droll

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2021, 04:54:26 PM »
Hey All,

question - is it normal that I am regularly faced with oppising ground unit forces of more than 200,000 tons? How do you win these invasions? With the additional bonus from fortifications I see myself sometimes throw 5-7 times the amount of tonnage at these units and they still barely make a dent (maybe they kill 50,000 tons or so).   What are your normal invasion force sizes?

I normally attack with a mixture of infantry (ca.   60% of my force), light vehicles (ca.   20%) and heavy vehicles (20%).   Logistics support is in light and with individual infantry in each subformation.

Thing is you aren't actually fighting 200,000 tons. 200k tons is what your active sensors see, the rest are hidden by their fortification level. This means that depending on their fortification that 200k could be more like 1,000,000 tons of ground forces. Which according to the amount that your bringing would be a 1-1 matchup, which an attacker will certainly lose because of the combat benefits of fortification. The good news though is that the 50,000k that you killed probably translates to a lot more than you think because of that exact same reason.

As for your army itself. I like having infantry in my attacking forces mostly due to RP but as far as game mechanics go, infantry, even with genetic modding are very suboptimal at attacking unless there is some terrain bonus that they can take advantage of (jungle training, mountain training etc.). Most will recommend that you spam light-medium-heavy vehicles as the primary consideration on the attack is not cost but also shipping tonnage.

Vehicles are also much more survivable on the attack than infantry because when attacking, the fortification bonus that infantry get doesn't exist. Instead, every unit has an evasion chance when attacking:
Infantry and medium vehicles have 60% to hit chance
Light vehicles have 40% to hit chance
Heavier vehicles have less evasion in general.

Combine this fact with vehicles having more hitpoints and armor and you end up with a much more survivable force than a mostly infantry attacker.

Finally, technology has a massive effect on the progression of battle, in particular ground combat armor. If your technology is reasonably further ahead than the enemy, the ratio of troops that you have to send will drastically drop.

To get to your scenario, what you have here is actually somewhat on the low side. You can expect an NPR homeworld to have tons more. 5-7 times the ground forces is usually a good bet against the actual size of enemy forces unless they are jungle mountains or some other stupidly strong terrain in which case its more like 15 times. I think the problem you have is that you didn't know that fortification obfuscates the true size of the enemy so you brought a force that could defeat the forces you saw but not the ones that were actually there. So try bringing 6 million tons next time and I think you'll do better.
 

Offline Norm49

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2021, 08:55:15 PM »
Something you can do to help you a lot is improve you armour technologies. It is the same tec. for ground unite and space ship. If you do that you will need to make new unit form scratch, including creating new individual unit for your formation.
 

Offline Veneke

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2021, 02:30:12 AM »
...So try bringing 6 million tons next time and I think you'll do better.

On that point, and maybe further to thread subject - can someone post what their (successful) ground invasion force, and accompanying troop transport ships, looked like?
 
Anytime I've tried to take a NPR homeworld I've found it's easier to just bombard the plane to oblivion rather than trying to slog it out on the ground. Then pick up the pieces afterwards. It would be useful to know what other people have used successfully to conquer NPR homeworlds.
 

Offline Blogaugis

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2021, 02:07:22 AM »
I have a question about HQ units:

Do the headquarters unit has to be on the same planet, or can they be on different planet or even solar system, like:

Earth High Command (rank 8 commander, 1. 000. 000 command points)
Earth Command (Rank 7 commander, 100. 000 command points) and Mars Command (Rank 7 commander, 100. 000 command points)

Would the Mars Command receive bonuses from Earth High Command's commander, if the Earth High Command is located on Earth and Mars Command is on Mars?
If so, what about if the unit, that is assigned to the Earth High Command, is located in a different solar system?
 

Offline serger

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2021, 02:37:08 AM »
Yes, the headquarters unit has to be on the same planet to provide commander's bonuses.
 
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Offline Blogaugis

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2021, 02:53:58 AM »
Quote from: serger link=topic=12567.   msg152568#msg152568 date=1623224228
Yes, the headquarters unit has to be on the same planet to provide commander's bonuses.   
Oh well.   .   .   
Then spreading your ground forces around across the solar system, putting small fortresses on lifeless asteroids, with an STO or 2 is suboptimal.   .   .     :(

Also, last I've heard, Orbit to space weaponry is ineffective if the planet has atmosphere.   
I guess it was relevant in VB6, when Planetary Defense Centers were a thing - The STOs function normally even in a world with atmosphere, and can have useful commander bonuses, correct?
 

Offline Black

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2021, 04:03:34 AM »
Quote from: serger link=topic=12567.   msg152568#msg152568 date=1623224228
Yes, the headquarters unit has to be on the same planet to provide commander's bonuses.   
Oh well.   .   .   
Then spreading your ground forces around across the solar system, putting small fortresses on lifeless asteroids, with an STO or 2 is suboptimal.   .   .     :(

Also, last I've heard, Orbit to space weaponry is ineffective if the planet has atmosphere.   
I guess it was relevant in VB6, when Planetary Defense Centers were a thing - The STOs function normally even in a world with atmosphere, and can have useful commander bonuses, correct?

All weapons function normally on planets with atmosphere in C#, but ground commanders have no bonuses that would be used for STO weapons. So only reason to have HQ in them is roleplay reasons and I am not absolutely sure right now, but I think you need HQ if you want to attach formation to superior HQ.
 
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Offline Blogaugis

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2021, 04:22:56 AM »
Quote from: Black link=topic=12567. msg152570#msg152570 date=1623229414
All weapons function normally on planets with atmosphere in C#, but ground commanders have no bonuses that would be used for STO weapons.  So only reason to have HQ in them is roleplay reasons and I am not absolutely sure right now, but I think you need HQ if you want to attach formation to superior HQ.
Ah, good to know.  This means that putting STOs on asteroids here and there is not entirely without merit.  But it wouldn't make much sense (economy wise) to put a Field Marshal with an elaborate HQ structure on every asteroid.
Although - Isn't there a skill of a ground force commander that reduces maintenance cost? You sure it doesn't apply to STOs?

You can actually attach a formation without HQ to a formation with HQ - that is what I did with 100 ton companies, I attached them to a formation with a single static HQ unit with 1000 command points, with no issue.  I can guarantee that you can attach at least 9 of 100 ton size companies, that have no HQ, to the HQ bunker with 1000 command point capacity.
If You want to attach a formation with HQ to a formation with HQ - one of them (the one which will be higher in the chain of command) has to have a higher command point capacity.  And, I think, ideally have to have a commander of a higher rank - to provide bonuses, but this needs to be checked.
 

Offline Black

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2021, 04:33:17 AM »
Problem with STOs on asteroid is limited range of beam weapons. Something like batteries on Phobos and Deimos makes sense as they will be able to protect Mars and it can also limit environmental damage as enemy will not have to attack Mars to destroy the STOs, but STO batteries on Eros would most likely have no effect on defence of Sol.
 
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Offline Blogaugis

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2021, 04:35:36 AM »
Quote from: Black link=topic=12567. msg152573#msg152573 date=1623231197
Problem with STOs on asteroid is limited range of beam weapons.  Something like batteries on Phobos and Deimos makes sense as they will be able to protect Mars and it can also limit environmental damage as enemy will not have to attack Mars to destroy the STOs, but STO batteries on Eros would most likely have no effect on defence of Sol.
I suppose the range limitation can be, to an extent, circumvented with high-end technology?
 

Offline Black

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2021, 04:54:00 AM »
Quote from: Black link=topic=12567. msg152573#msg152573 date=1623231197
Problem with STOs on asteroid is limited range of beam weapons.  Something like batteries on Phobos and Deimos makes sense as they will be able to protect Mars and it can also limit environmental damage as enemy will not have to attack Mars to destroy the STOs, but STO batteries on Eros would most likely have no effect on defence of Sol.
I suppose the range limitation can be, to an extent, circumvented with high-end technology?

To a certain extent yes, but still, the distance between our asteroid belt and Mars or Earth is too great even for highest levels of beam fire controls.

You can play with disabled orbital movement and if you are lucky have asteroid close to jump point (or you can change position of JP in SM mode), in such case some STO placements could be useful.

Or you can make fighter bases or refueling base in asteroid field, where you have station in orbit of asteroid that will be protected by STOs on the body itself.

Maybe STOs on some trojan asteroids to guard lagrange points? I am not sure if they can spawn in same location, I would have to check in Aurora and cannot do that right now.

But I think that in normal circumstances you will put STOs on moons of your colonies or on the colony itself.

One thing I realized about STO formations, you most likely want to go small with them and then put them under superior HQ formations, because STOs take a lot of time to construct and large STO formation can take decades to build. So it is faster to build 2000 tons STO formation (battery) and put three under HQ formation (battalion) and then put 3 battalions under regimental HQ.
 
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Offline Density

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2021, 05:05:29 AM »
Although - Isn't there a skill of a ground force commander that reduces maintenance cost? You sure it doesn't apply to STOs?

There is no skill that reduces maintenance costs. You might be thinking of Ground Combat Logistics, which gives a chance that units don't use supply (GSP) during a ground combat round. But STO's do not need nor use GSP.
 
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Offline Demetrious

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2021, 09:26:52 AM »
Problem with STOs on asteroid is limited range of beam weapons. Something like batteries on Phobos and Deimos makes sense as they will be able to protect Mars and it can also limit environmental damage as enemy will not have to attack Mars to destroy the STOs, but STO batteries on Eros would most likely have no effect on defence of Sol.

I used to put beam-armed STOs on Phobos/Deimos in VB6 - no atmosphere, no problem.  :)
 

Offline Blogaugis

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2021, 10:04:26 AM »
Quote from: Demetrious link=topic=12567. msg152581#msg152581 date=1623248812
I used to put beam-armed STOs on Phobos/Deimos in VB6 - no atmosphere, no problem.   :)
Weren't they used to be called PDCs - Planetary Defense Centers - in VB?
 

 

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