Author Topic: Ground Invasion - What is normal?  (Read 1115 times)

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Offline Black

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2021, 10:23:42 AM »
Yes in VB6 there were PDCs, those were basically warships bound to planetary surface and could be equipped with missile launchers. In C#, the PDCs were replaced by STO formation, and those are ground formation build by Ground Force Construction Complexes and can only be equipped with beam weapons.
 
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Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2021, 11:28:13 AM »
Yes, this was a common tactic if Mars needed defending. Eventually you could do the same with Luna and Earth if you didn't create atmosphere on the moon.

As to your original plan, putting small STO units here and there in the Sol system only works if you're playing a multi-faction Earth/Sol start, where you roleplay several powers. Because then you can have a fuel depot on Ceres, guarded by STO unit, for example. Or you could sneakily put STO units on a comet while it's away from the inner system and then have them open fire at your enemy when the comet returns.

But none of that is useful in any way against NPR or spoilers who will just beeline towards your colonies.
 

Offline Blogaugis

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2021, 01:31:25 PM »
Quote from: Garfunkel link=topic=12567. msg152596#msg152596 date=1623256093
Yes, this was a common tactic if Mars needed defending.  Eventually you could do the same with Luna and Earth if you didn't create atmosphere on the moon.

As to your original plan, putting small STO units here and there in the Sol system only works if you're playing a multi-faction Earth/Sol start, where you roleplay several powers.  Because then you can have a fuel depot on Ceres, guarded by STO unit, for example.  Or you could sneakily put STO units on a comet while it's away from the inner system and then have them open fire at your enemy when the comet returns.

But none of that is useful in any way against NPR or spoilers who will just beeline towards your colonies.
So they're not useful as a distraction even? To lure the missiles or any other weapons to lifeless asteroids instead of important colonies?

Since, there are asteroids in Sol - and I'm sure there can be generated asteroids with resources in other solar systems - where the asteroid itself is in an asteroid belt, meaning there are numerous asteroids nearby.
Let's say that a civilian mining complex is established on an asteroid, and there are asteroids near it, with potential to put a small garrison with an STO or 2.
Would the NPR or spoilers really just ignore the civilian mining complex colony?
 

Online Andrew

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2021, 02:14:51 PM »
Unless your STO weapon is on the colony under attack it is probably useless. Beam weapon ranges are less than a million km, usually much less. Most ateroids are more than a million km from each other. Anti-missile STO which are rather vital to prevent your colonies being nuked have to go on the target as they have even shorter engagment ranges
Put the Beam weapons on the target you want to defend.  Small numbers of STO's are easy to kill so won't do much at all against any force worth worrying about so if defending Sol put them were you have populations or vital mining colonies, same in other systems. In a multiplayer controlled set up you may for RP reasons have very small groups of ships in which case small STO batteries may achieve something , they will not against NPR's.

When an NPR attacks a solar system they will usually go for the highest signature target (Earth) as they may well not even detect small mining colonies. Same goes for you when you attack. Due to my particuarly poor scouting I had my main fleet in a system and failed to notice a moderate size mining colony with a fleet in orbit over it until the fleet moved out and attacked me.
 

Offline Blogaugis

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2021, 03:52:55 PM »
Unless your STO weapon is on the colony under attack it is probably useless. Beam weapon ranges are less than a million km, usually much less. Most ateroids are more than a million km from each other. Anti-missile STO which are rather vital to prevent your colonies being nuked have to go on the target as they have even shorter engagment ranges
Put the Beam weapons on the target you want to defend.  Small numbers of STO's are easy to kill so won't do much at all against any force worth worrying about so if defending Sol put them were you have populations or vital mining colonies, same in other systems. In a multiplayer controlled set up you may for RP reasons have very small groups of ships in which case small STO batteries may achieve something , they will not against NPR's.

When an NPR attacks a solar system they will usually go for the highest signature target (Earth) as they may well not even detect small mining colonies. Same goes for you when you attack. Due to my particuarly poor scouting I had my main fleet in a system and failed to notice a moderate size mining colony with a fleet in orbit over it until the fleet moved out and attacked me.
So, that means that NPR or spoilers have to have really good sensors OR, you really have to go out of your way to make some dead asteroid seem a worthwhile target - putting unusually large amount of noisy ships and structures. Or, again, make the importnat colony less noisy (and less important as a result).

NPRs and/or spoilers don't wander around the system much?

So basically, the optimal tactic is to essentially put plenty of STOs and/or orbital platforms on/above your important worlds. Which, in turn, incentives to concentrate all the resources into a small area...

Coming back to other strategies and tactics - I've noticed that you can order your ships to activate transponders - could this theoretically help in luring an NPR/spoiler into an ambush or distract the enemy force, by presenting a target of low importance?
 

Online Andrew

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2021, 03:40:37 AM »
How are upu going to make an asteroid colony compete with your homeworlds signature?
For instance Earth thermal 54000    EM 165000 typical for a homeworld
Mars with terraformers, Mines fully set up for its 50 million pop Thermal and EM 16000
100 Auto mines EM and Thermal 500 
How are you going to fool anyone about which of these is important? Not Possible except by making the colony as important as the homeworld

Oddly the best tactic is always to defend a small area 'He who defends everywhere , defends nowhere'  . Which does not mean ignoring your vital colonies instead you have a fleet for that.
10 STO Lasers can be ignored, the fleet can roll over them for shield and armour damage, pit 10 lasers on 20 colonies and they will do nothing. 200 lasers kill ships fast and attacking that planet is hard.

You can sometimes certianly in previous versions bait an NPR into following a lone scout , they get better at that but ambush is hard. If you mean beam range ambush thats not happening the Ships will be detected before they get to beam range, luring someone into a position were missile ships can shoot, you can do that. But could also have done that at the Jump point , or major colony or other place were the NPR will go eventually.

 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2021, 11:56:46 AM »
Coming back to other strategies and tactics - I've noticed that you can order your ships to activate transponders - could this theoretically help in luring an NPR/spoiler into an ambush or distract the enemy force, by presenting a target of low importance?
Yes, since they will see your transponders, there is a chance that they will give chase.
 
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Offline Blogaugis

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2021, 01:26:22 PM »
How are upu going to make an asteroid colony compete with your homeworlds signature?
For instance Earth thermal 54000    EM 165000 typical for a homeworld
Mars with terraformers, Mines fully set up for its 50 million pop Thermal and EM 16000
100 Auto mines EM and Thermal 500 
How are you going to fool anyone about which of these is important? Not Possible except by making the colony as important as the homeworld

Oddly the best tactic is always to defend a small area 'He who defends everywhere , defends nowhere'  . Which does not mean ignoring your vital colonies instead you have a fleet for that.
10 STO Lasers can be ignored, the fleet can roll over them for shield and armour damage, pit 10 lasers on 20 colonies and they will do nothing. 200 lasers kill ships fast and attacking that planet is hard.

You can sometimes certianly in previous versions bait an NPR into following a lone scout , they get better at that but ambush is hard. If you mean beam range ambush thats not happening the Ships will be detected before they get to beam range, luring someone into a position were missile ships can shoot, you can do that. But could also have done that at the Jump point , or major colony or other place were the NPR will go eventually.
Moving thousands of civilian factories and infrastructure to these asteroids, putting gigantic Orbital habitats with noisy components, putting a gigantic land army...
But yeah, it's probably better to focus on the home-world and other important colonizable planets, and put hundreds of STOs there, while asteroids might get about a few thousand tons of land forces and a single STO or 2.

It isn't about defending a small area per say - it is about dispersing your forces and trying to make the enemy do the same, which in turn makes him vulnerable, especially if your sensors are superior.
Making the enemy surrounded on all sides with numerous smaller fleets and sources of attack.
Or, at least, making the enemy overkill a target that was not exactly worth it.
Buying time for your homeworld to prepare is another potential aspect. It's more about layered semi-autonomous defenses after all.
1 Gigantic and sluggish fleet versus several small specialized strike forces, from various sides? This is the question I'm looking the answer to.

Well, with options of asteroid and planet motion in mind, if there is an asteroid between a jump point and a colony, I'd certainly like to put a small amount of STOs to make it show it's military capabilities/reduce it's missile reserves/buy time.
 

Online Droll

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2021, 01:46:13 PM »
Making the enemy surrounded on all sides with numerous smaller fleets and sources of attack.

Well, with options of asteroid and planet motion in mind, if there is an asteroid between a jump point and a colony, I'd certainly like to put a small amount of STOs to make it show it's military capabilities/reduce it's missile reserves/buy time.

I feel like STOs are a bad way of doing this. It would be much better to focus on the "smaller fleets" side of things. To that effect, putting maintenance stations in orbit of strategic bodies and loading them up with DSTS and MSP seems to be a better way. As that would achieve what you want by letting you put mobile forces in orbit of these bodies and come at the enemy from multiple directions.

STOs are just not mobile enough to achieve this, especially considering it takes a month for them to self-fortify - an essential component of their survivability against attack. Instead of putting 1-2 STOs on an asteroid, station a maintenance ship and like 15-30kt of military ships there.
 

Online Andrew

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2021, 01:57:21 PM »
Unless your enemy is called Custer and the AI is not as stupid as him they will not split up , they will go to your biggest planet and blow it up, then go to each of your decoys and blow them up defeating you in detail.
If you concentrate all your defenses they can still blow up your mining sites but hopefuly not your homeworld and hopefully the homeworld defenses will hold until you get your fleet back from where ever you sent it while your home system is under attack. Or your fleet is dead in which case you have a problem.
In the meantime the huge amount of resources you seem to want to divert to create decoys could have been spent on building a fleet and winning, and unless each of your decoy's has the same population and industry as your homeworld (which will cost more than the same on your homeworld) then they are not as attrative targets IF they are as big a target as your homeworld they are not decoy's they are critical facilities which need the same level of defenses as your homeworld,

A faster fleet can pick the range, but splitting up splits your anti-missile defenses and each of your small mobile fleets dies from missile fire when a single fleet would have emerged victorious , or you had much more fleet than you needed and each of your dispersed fleets is stronger then the enemy

Have a look at the system map, look at the range circles around your fleet, notice that at any reasonable scale the range circles of your beam weapons are the same as the dot of the ship. Beam weapons on an asteroid will not bother an enemy fleet unless it closes to beam range to attack the asteroid , in all probabilty they will not even see small mining colonies and if they do and decide to attack the massed fleet will kill your small number of STO without noticing them except for dinged shields and armour. 3*10^5 is a good beam range, an AU is 1.5*19^8km about 500 times larger the Earth is 1 AU fromt the sun WP are typically further away, the chance that a random straight line between the WP and the destination of a fleet will come in range of an STO is less than winning the national lottery

Buying time for your homeworld is a nice idea but when the enemy is in your home system it is too late the time taken to build warships and STO weapons is measured on a much longer time scale than the time taken to nuke a planet. Buy time by killing all the survey ships before they find the WP to your homeworld or by already having built a fleet . Having said that in a previous Aurora version there is a game report of someone rebuilding while his home system was under attack by an NPR and winning but all his defenses were on his homeworld not spread out pointlessly and that is only possible because the NPR AI is not as good as a player.

Several hundred STO can hurt a fleet badly as long as it does not have a range advantage , 10 or 20 may hurt one ship before they are destroyed , 1 or 2 will barely be noticed.

I think your theories need some experience of the game. If they work tell me about it I will be suprised and impressed
 

Offline Blogaugis

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Re: Ground Invasion - What is normal?
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2021, 02:04:02 PM »
Unless your enemy is called Custer and the AI is not as stupid as him they will not split up , they will go to your biggest planet and blow it up, then go to each of your decoys and blow them up defeating you in detail.
If you concentrate all your defenses they can still blow up your mining sites but hopefuly not your homeworld and hopefully the homeworld defenses will hold until you get your fleet back from where ever you sent it while your home system is under attack. Or your fleet is dead in which case you have a problem.
In the meantime the huge amount of resources you seem to want to divert to create decoys could have been spent on building a fleet and winning, and unless each of your decoy's has the same population and industry as your homeworld (which will cost more than the same on your homeworld) then they are not as attrative targets IF they are as big a target as your homeworld they are not decoy's they are critical facilities which need the same level of defenses as your homeworld,

A faster fleet can pick the range, but splitting up splits your anti-missile defenses and each of your small mobile fleets dies from missile fire when a single fleet would have emerged victorious , or you had much more fleet than you needed and each of your dispersed fleets is stronger then the enemy

Have a look at the system map, look at the range circles around your fleet, notice that at any reasonable scale the range circles of your beam weapons are the same as the dot of the ship. Beam weapons on an asteroid will not bother an enemy fleet unless it closes to beam range to attack the asteroid , in all probabilty they will not even see small mining colonies and if they do and decide to attack the massed fleet will kill your small number of STO without noticing them except for dinged shields and armour. 3*10^5 is a good beam range, an AU is 1.5*19^8km about 500 times larger the Earth is 1 AU fromt the sun WP are typically further away, the chance that a random straight line between the WP and the destination of a fleet will come in range of an STO is less than winning the national lottery

Buying time for your homeworld is a nice idea but when the enemy is in your home system it is too late the time taken to build warships and STO weapons is measured on a much longer time scale than the time taken to nuke a planet. Buy time by killing all the survey ships before they find the WP to your homeworld or by already having built a fleet . Having said that in a previous Aurora version there is a game report of someone rebuilding while his home system was under attack by an NPR and winning but all his defenses were on his homeworld not spread out pointlessly and that is only possible because the NPR AI is not as good as a player.

Several hundred STO can hurt a fleet badly as long as it does not have a range advantage , 10 or 20 may hurt one ship before they are destroyed , 1 or 2 will barely be noticed.

I think your theories need some experience of the game. If they work tell me about it I will be suprised and impressed
Okay, I'll see if there will be a game when home system will be attacked and try to tell the tale of how it went.
 

 

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