Quote from: Agraelgrimm on July 16, 2021, 07:57:01 PM

So, you can pack all of that in a 6-7 ton Corvette that can escort civilian shipping and will be more effective. First, if you are using box launchers as in real life vertical launchers, you do not need that magazine. But you are using both systems, that is ineffective, you can probably cut 1k ton by just taking away the missile launchers, magazine and crew berths that comes with it. Think about 24 box launchers each and you are golden. It is more than enough to deal with the problems you are going to get because they run into packs, also, you need AMM on those ships, so i would go 18 AMM and 6 ASM.

You can also get away with less speed, since they will be mostly stationary, so u can drop maybe 150 tons there as well or keep the same size of engine and drop the clockage on it, sparing some fuel. You need more sensors, fire control, etc.

There is no magazine on the ship; in C# Aurora the "Magazine" count includes the content of the launchers themselves which in this case are 12x size-4 box launchers.

There's not a real need to put AMM on these ships...you can do it of course but at only 9k tons I think it would be spreading the ships too thin, with already Gauss turrets (>10 HS each in this case) and ASM box launchers. This ship design frankly needs more ASMs, not AMMs which would be a third system, even 24 ASM launchers are not really enough volume of fire for a 9k ton ship.

I do agree that the speed could be reduced, but ship speed is usually a fleetwide decision so if the rest of the fleet fights at 5,000 km/s it makes sense for the frigate to have similar speed. Hard to say without more context.

Well, the magazine thing makes more sense now.
However, these ships are made to work in groups of 5-6... I still think he is getting too much tonnage there i do agree on the ASMs, and in cutting loose the AMMs. But i increased the missile count by assuming a drop on the tonnage. And i do trust more in missiles than PD for his tech lv. But thats just me.

Here is a frigate design that is providing security in my outer colonies.

Most of the time it operates in groups/wings of 6.
4 PD turrets for own safety but also for other ships missile screen.
12 Box launchers with some ASM for some extra punch.

Quote

Junkers ES-5D "Hog" class Escort Frigate      9 000 tons       201 Crew       1 351.1 BP       TCS 180    TH 675    EM 0
5000 km/s      Armour 3-38       Shields 0-0       HTK 52      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 14      PPV 50.72
Maint Life 2.04 Years     MSP 594    AFR 158%    IFR 2.2%    1YR 190    5YR 2 844    Max Repair 281.25 MSP
Magazine 48   
Captain    Control Rating 3   BRG   AUX   ENG   
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Morale Check Required   

Felman Propulsion Ion Drive  EP450.00 (2)    Power 900    Fuel Use 63.75%    Signature 337.50    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 1 085 000 Litres    Range 34 billion km (78 days at full power)

Union Arms Holding Twin Union Arms Holding Gauss Cannon R200-67.00(16) Turret (4x6)    Range 20 000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 20 000 km    ROF 5       
Precision Electronics Beam Fire Control R20-TS16000 (1)     Max Range: 20 000 km   TS: 16 000 km/s     50 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Union Arms Holding Size 4.0 Box Launcher (12)     Missile Size: 4    Hangar Reload 100 minutes    MF Reload 16 hours
Precision Electronics Missile Fire Control FC21-R20 (1)     Range 21.7m km    Resolution 20
Union Arms Holding ASM-4 Neutron (12)    Speed: 44 050 km/s    End: 3.9m     Range: 10.4m km    WH: 4    Size: 4    TH: 146/88/44

Precision Electronics Missile Sensor AS8-R1 (1)     GPS 50     Range 8.9m km    MCR 802.9k km    Resolution 1
Precision Electronics Active Search Sensor AS18-R100 (1)     GPS 1000     Range 18.5m km    Resolution 100

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

So, you can pack all of that in a 6-7 ton Corvette that can escort civilian shipping and will be more effective. First, if you are using box launchers as in real life vertical launchers, you do not need that magazine. But you are using both systems, that is ineffective, you can probably cut 1k ton by just taking away the missile launchers, magazine and crew berths that comes with it. Think about 24 box launchers each and you are golden. It is more than enough to deal with the problems you are going to get because they run into packs, also, you need AMM on those ships, so i would go 18 AMM and 6 ASM.

You can also get away with less speed, since they will be mostly stationary, so u can drop maybe 150 tons there as well or keep the same size of engine and drop the clockage on it, sparing some fuel. You need more sensors, fire control, etc.

For extending PD sensor range then I tend to deploy AMM sensor scouts

The same as I am, though it's not always parasites in my fleets.
Yet large ships are really able to provide themselves reliable momentary-deploying all-aspect radar field, while sensor scouts are deploying slowly, are vulnerable and that's especially important for missile attacks and so AM radars.
It's only not a feature for frigates.

Indeed large AMM sensor can be fine due to missile tracking tech, yet in this ship with this overall tech level it isn't fine, I think. As I already mentioned, it can give no more than ~8% bonus. It is yet 225-ton radar. Cannot see exact tech level, but it looks like it's possible to fit another turret instead of it and, so, increase PD efficiency no less then with the same 8%, and not only against missiles, but againts ships and surface targets too. So no gain, just loss.

And I think it's ok to have MFC outranging an active sensor, because there are ECMs...

For extending PD sensor range then I tend to deploy AMM sensor scouts which are much cheaper and efficient in general to gain tracking benefits. Several ships that each carrying a small sensor scout can chain several scouts to get a decent tracking distance for a sensible cost both in research/build ​cost and space on said ships.

In fact I keep quite a complex scouting contingent in hangars on all escort and patrol ships given how the sensors work in C#. Fitting large sensors on main capital ships is generally not wanted (unless you build a specific sensor ship), especially as missile combat ranges have been reduced quite significantly in C# versus VB6 combat.

Serger's comments are generally correct except where noted by previous discussion (mainly the large AMM sensor is fine due to missile tracking tech, though you should really research better sensor tech!). The range is indeed very long and could stand to be reduced either by reducing fuel by 1/3 or 1/2 and/or increasing the EP boost. Even 15b or 20b km range gives sufficient strategic mobility on the defensive as you are mostly making one-way trips and refueling at bases or from tankers, rather than striking into enemy territory which requires more endurance.

While other comments are correct about ship size, to me it is also an RP consideration so I would not worry too much about it although the points made are absolutely correct.

Following on the BFC discussion, If you set the range to 48,000 or 64,000 km you will greatly improve your PD efficiency, which can let you reduce the load of Gauss turrets. Most straightforward would be to keep the twin 2x3 setup but reduce to only 2x turrets, which would also allow you to use 2x SW fire controls instead of 1x MW for a bit of redundancy - the cost is the same, and the RP investment is a few points less.

With the space saved, you must increase the missile salvo size, not warhead. size-4 WH-4 is a reasonable missile design depending on tech level (if you have rushed the 8k RP techs then WH-5 is perhaps more efficient, even WH-6 given the high speed you are currently deploying). However with box launchers the goal is to have an overwhelming volley size to make best use of the small component size, and by removing two Gauss turrets you will gain over 20 HS in space very easily which can be used to multiply your box launcher load by a factor of 4 (from 12 to ~48 or so). This brings your volley damage with the current missiles up to a far more intimidating 192 per frigate which would be easily enough to destroy a similar opponent - of course after AMMs and PD the picture will be less favorable but against NPRs such a tactic is very effective.

I would also cut the size of the MFC by 50% but have 2-4 of them depending how much you want to be able to split salvos (not only against multiple targets, but this can also reduce enemy PD efficiency somewhat with small enough salvo sizes). This will cut MFC range by ~30%, which is fine - your MFC should not outrange your active sensor, rather the reverse should be true as this allows you to maintain a target lock while retreating after a volley.

Also, remove the Main Engineering module. It is usually difficult to find enough Engineering-skilled officers to staff these, so they should be reserved for capital or large command ships. Bridge + Aux Control is sufficient for a 9,000-ton patrol or escort class, and if you needed a third module the CIC would be a better option as there are plenty of junior officers with a Tactical bonus. Otherwise, as a CIC is 10k RP you can put some passive sensors as Jorgen recommends.

On a side note, some time ago experiments were done finding that for Gauss cannons, the 1 HS size is actually most efficient for PD due to salvo overkill effects. This is a relatively minor effect but it is worth noting particularly if you face significant AMM spam from the NPRs. No change is necessary as any size of Gauss gun will work fine, but a smaller gun does reduce your RP investment somewhat especially since you must research twice (gun, then turret). I usually use the 1 HS size for this reason as well as the 1-HTK statistic of the weapon.

P.S. I'll gladly play with your setting if you want, to provide some design examples you may adjust for your star nation - RP me in as a retired military shipbuilding expert with a temporary engagement , - but it will require your save, because it's really hard to pick up tech levels from the design text.

And if they have to be used independently too - they are very weakly-armed. Calc your salvo weight. Even where every your missile will penetrate opponent's anti-missile defence and hit a target - it will be only 12x4=48 DP. Every one of your frigates have 3x38=114 armour points. So their main weapon's full-magazine salvo can only shear less then half of their own armour at the best case, have very low chance to make shock damage, and the only their other armament is a set of defencive turrets that are able only to slowly shear off opponents armour if only they'll have a range and time to do it at all.

That I've learned the hard way . The new slower missile is in development right now, with 9 strong warhead. Enemy ships are very slow.