Aurora 4x
C# Aurora => C# Suggestions => Topic started by: LuuBluum on November 29, 2021, 03:33:17 PM
-
I posted this related issue (http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=12522.msg157333#msg157333) as a bug, but posting this as well.
Right now the only option for elevating the minimum required rank to command a ship is some combination of including command and control modules that force minimum requirements, and selecting the "Senior C.O." button to force all the ranks to increase by one. This is incredibly restrictive for no particular reason. Why not a ship without an auxiliary bridge that can only be commanded by a commander instead of a lieutenant? Or fleet commanders more than one rank above the commander of a ship (though the above bug doesn't help).
So, simple proposal: rather than a single "Senior C.O." checkbox, two numerical input fields. The first is for "rank above racial minimum" for the commander of that ship design; the same minimum constraints as now apply. It would start at 0, but move up to 1 or 2 automatically if you add command and control modules that require that it increase. However, you can also manually input any other value you choose for this, letting you set it to whatever you want (as long as it is higher than the minimum). The second input field is the "rank above commander" for the fleet commander of that ship, if the flag bridge is present (and only appears when placed in the design). The value by default is 1 (the current default), but can be changed to any arbitrary value as well.
This would generalize the "Senior C.O." option for a ship as well as let you configure the importance of a particular fleet commander role, in case you want a "commander of the entire navy" sort of ship flying around.
-
On the topic of flag bridges, I would like to see them reworked.
Currently a flag bridge functions as a command role which gives benefits to all the ships in its fleet. However, this means the flag bridge is minimally useful in any situation in which a fleet is split up - squadron jump assaults, fighter squadron strikes, area defense PD screening, to name a few common situations in which detached ships get no benefit from the flag officer.
I would like to see flag bridges instead function as a kind of mobile naval HQ, which slots into the admin command hierarchy and acts in much the same way, perhaps with a reduced radius (single system for most HQ types, this + neighboring systems for survey or patrol types). This will also fix the issue with commander ranks as the admin command system already accounts for this and is flexible. This flexibility also allows to have a higher-ranking admiral command a major fleet action as currently the maximum possible rank for a flag bridge officer is R5 (usually a RADM) which is neither realistic nor flavorful IMO.
The only problem I see with this is that a flag bridge is much cheaper to build than a naval HQ, so there would need to be some limitation on its effectiveness as otherwise the metagame would be to put flag bridges on everything. Prohibiting a flag bridge command from having any subordinate commands is I think one fair limitation but perhaps is a bit restrictive.
-
On the topic of flag bridges, I would like to see them reworked.
Currently a flag bridge functions as a command role which gives benefits to all the ships in its fleet. However, this means the flag bridge is minimally useful in any situation in which a fleet is split up - squadron jump assaults, fighter squadron strikes, area defense PD screening, to name a few common situations in which detached ships get no benefit from the flag officer.
I would like to see flag bridges instead function as a kind of mobile naval HQ, which slots into the admin command hierarchy and acts in much the same way, perhaps with a reduced radius (single system for most HQ types, this + neighboring systems for survey or patrol types). This will also fix the issue with commander ranks as the admin command system already accounts for this and is flexible. This flexibility also allows to have a higher-ranking admiral command a major fleet action as currently the maximum possible rank for a flag bridge officer is R5 (usually a RADM) which is neither realistic nor flavorful IMO.
The only problem I see with this is that a flag bridge is much cheaper to build than a naval HQ, so there would need to be some limitation on its effectiveness as otherwise the metagame would be to put flag bridges on everything. Prohibiting a flag bridge command from having any subordinate commands is I think one fair limitation but perhaps is a bit restrictive.
I agree that makes a lot of sense, and will help with fleet deployments. I see no problem with the restriction that you can't stack flag bridges: you can always use the Admin command stack, which is currently unrestricted, for all levels above the local fleet and its subordinates. In fact, looking at it, what would be the advantage of a Flag Bridge? Does it give more advantages than an Admin command specific for that task force?
-
In fact, looking at it, what would be the advantage of a Flag Bridge? Does it give more advantages than an Admin command specific for that task force?
Two reasons:
- Flavor-wise, I want my admirals in charge of my fleets on-location for big climactic battles and then to actually be useful, instead of impotently giving my carriers +50% tactical or whatever while my bombers are 500 million km away launching missiles at the Haplessians.
- Mechanically, a flag bridge can be used to give bonuses to a fleet outside of the naval HQ range. In practice this isn't much different than moving a naval HQ to a local body and relocating an admin command there but mounting the admin command on a ship is much more portable and of course flavorful.
-
Is not the flag office more for role-play as the only thing they do is to add a bonus to reaction speed if the fleet is less than 100% fleet training.
I usually see the flag offices more as a squadron leader than anything, most often when you split a fleet they are in squadrons anyway, not always but often.
Admin command is the strategic command of any fleet, that is the way I do it. So every true fleet will have a vice admiral tied to it. Even task-groups will often get a rear admiral attached to it.
But I could see the point in having a mobile admin command post for smaller part of a fleet where you can stick rear admirals into them. Their range should obviously only be the same system as where the ship with the flag bridge is.
In general it would fit better if the flag bridge was a mobile admin command. The squadron commander you probably can assign to the squadron leader as that usually is a special ship type anyway. I think the reaction bonus could go to the leading commander of a squadron instead without the need of a specific flag bridge.
-
I would like to see flag bridges instead function as a kind of mobile naval HQ, which slots into the admin command hierarchy and acts in much the same way, perhaps with a reduced radius (single system for most HQ types, this + neighboring systems for survey or patrol types).
I'd cast a vote for 1+neighboring system for all, because one of the most usable cases is a carrier task force that will stay at JP, and it's a natural place for the flag bridge, yet it's annoyingly useless unless 1+neighboring system rule.
-
I would like to see flag bridges instead function as a kind of mobile naval HQ, which slots into the admin command hierarchy and acts in much the same way, perhaps with a reduced radius (single system for most HQ types, this + neighboring systems for survey or patrol types).
I'd cast a vote for 1+neighboring system for all, because one of the most usable cases is a carrier task force that will stay at JP, and it's a natural place for the flag bridge, yet it's annoyingly useless unless 1+neighboring system rule.
I have no issue with this, the only problem is that this makes a flag bridge equally as capable as a single Naval HQ which might be a balance issue. However if flag bridges are unable to support an admin hierarchy and only hold a single commander this should still be okay balance-wise as flag bridge "HQs" are suitably limited.
-
Yeah, thinking on it, what even are flag bridges good for in the current formulation? They give you a (fleet) reaction bonus, but they don't really fit all too well into the rest of the system. Why not just have it so that flag bridges, rather than being "staffed" by an officer exclusively in that role, are simply manned by someone in the admin command already?
Simple idea: flag bridges, rather than being staffed by a dedicated officer, are able to be staffed by any officer in the admin command hierarchy that the ship falls under. As for the bonus... maybe something like 10% to their admin command bonus since they're now directly on-hand rather than commanding from a distance? Some sort of benefit, specific to the officer, spread across the fleet for which that flag bridge is in. Same rule about it having to be the "most senior" of all the people in flag bridges in that fleet for the bonus to apply.
Another option for the applied bonus is that an admin commander, when in range of their superior command or the headquarters itself but on a flag bridge, makes it so that the specific admin command is now centered around that ship plus 1 jump (maybe make it a tech? Or square root of naval command size?). So, let's say I have a simple navel headquarters of size 2, with a hierarchy depth of 5, and stick all those commanders onto flagships. If I fly the fleet out one system over, everything continues to work fine in the hierarchy. I can then fly out every ship except the flagship whose commander is the top of the hierarchy out one more system, and everything would continue to work fine in the hierarchy even though now none of those ships are in range of the naval headquarters. I can keep doing this and effectively chain flagships in this way, to extend out my admin command over some distance. However, the risk here is that it's rather fragile; any one of those flagships being destroyed or forced to move would destroy the entire chained hierarchy. This is more-or-less what was suggested above, except still tethered to the naval headquarters at one end.
-
I would love for Flag Bridge to have NAC effect to all ships in the system for all the reasons already outlined. While I don't want it to be effective through JPs, I don't mind if Flag Bridge becomes a "cheaty" version of Naval Admin Command as it's again one of those things that players will have to buy into to use. It's just that it breaks my immersion if an admiral can magically improve the performance of their underlings through a jump point, plus it makes for a better story for the brave admiral to participate in the JP assault.
-
What if the flag bridge functioned as it does now, but affected all ships in the system rather than just the parent fleet?
-
What if the flag bridge functioned as it does now, but affected all ships in the system rather than just the parent fleet?
I think it's too much, because it's not a zonal administrative feature, it's an operational/command feature. It has to function for the task force, maybe being affected by fleet's training level.
By the way, is it possible to rework training level mechanics through the flagships, so that training level will become a function of flagship - current ship relations?
I mean, any regular ship is working out her training level for the specific flagship of her fleet (up to flagship's grade level), and a flagship is working out her training level for the admin command. Change a command link - drop training levels.
-
What if the flag bridge functioned as it does now, but affected all ships in the system rather than just the parent fleet?
I think it would be nice... although from a mechanic perspective it is a bit weird that an admiral would be able to give a reaction bonus spanning a whole system, that is more of a tactical squadron commander role in my opinion. The true squadron commander or highest ranking captain in a squadron should be enough to give the reaction bonus, it is such a marginal benefit to begin with.
I think the flag bridge should be like an admin command, can be restricted to Naval and Patrol admins, should only effect the current system and could not have any other admin commands beneath them... or some such. You could also call them something different so they stand out from admin commands, like task-force command or some similar name. But obviously we ar talking about allot more work for you to implement it... so... perhaps not the best solution.
Personally I would want my flag officer to be the rear Admiral in charge of a task-force who in turn is part of a Fleet HQ located at a colony. A fleet will generally have more than one task-force. A task force may then be divided down into squadrons. I don't think that squadron commanders need a specific bridge as that should be a tactical position based on need, not a strict hierarchy.
In the US fleet they often have different roles on different ships as well. So Anti-air might be lead from one ship, air-planes from one ship and anti-submarine from another. Not all leader positions are consolidated to one and the same ship in real life... not saying we have to model any of that in Aurora, just saying.
-
What if the flag bridge functioned as it does now, but affected all ships in the system rather than just the parent fleet?
This would be a suitable compromise since I can see how it is easier to implement mechanically.
Honestly my only issue with it is that as others have said the Reaction bonus is a bit underwhelming. I would like if Reaction bonus had a useful tactical purpose for ships with 100% fleet trained crews. The initiative system for order of movement is trivial in most engagements and AIUI fully-trained crews preclude any need for a Reaction bonus to offset order delays. Ideally, even with 100% training a crew should still experience some delays which Reaction bonuses can help to overcome.
-
Personally I would want my flag officer to be the rear Admiral in charge of a task-force who in turn is part of a Fleet HQ located at a colony. A fleet will generally have more than one task-force. A task force may then be divided down into squadrons. I don't think that squadron commanders need a specific bridge as that should be a tactical position based on need, not a strict hierarchy.
Right now it's a bit odd; it almost feels like fleet commanders and the admin hierarchy are two distinct entities that don't really overlap. Really though, they should be a part of the same thing.
I'd just be happy if there was some way to get my admin commanders out onto the ships that they command, y'know? Even if there isn't a flag bridge. Maybe it's just... you can move admin commanders onto ships under their command and it provides some extra percentage bonus to that fleet, but if there's a flag bridge on that ship it provides the bonus to their entire command?
-
What if the flag bridge functioned as it does now, but affected all ships in the system rather than just the parent fleet?
Whait a minute. Will it be stacking? If yes, it's awfull - tens of flag bridges will give combat fleet furious summary bonuses. If no, it's problematic - which flag bridges will give bonuses, which will not in the same system?
-
What if the flag bridge functioned as it does now, but affected all ships in the system rather than just the parent fleet?
Whait a minute. Will it be stacking? If yes, it's awfull - tens of flag bridges will give combat fleet furious summary bonuses. If no, it's problematic - which flag bridges will give bonuses, which will not in the same system?
Presently if there are multiple flag bridges in a fleet (not uncommon to occur) the highest-ranking, then most-senior officer is chosen I believe. Same system should apply if multiple flags are in a system.
-
Well, getting the reaction bonus across the system is a step to the right direction so getting at least that would be grand.
-
Presently if there are multiple flag bridges in a fleet (not uncommon to occur) the highest-ranking, then most-senior officer is chosen I believe. Same system should apply if multiple flags are in a system.
I don't like it. It's natural for the fleet/squad, not for some locus.
However, I must admit, it's mechanically simple, have some anchors in natural lore parts of Aurora, and, maybe, will free from some micro burden, especially if there will be simple way to see which officer is currently senior flag officer in this system / for this fleet.
-
How about full reaction bonus in the fleet and half reaction bonus in the system?
-
How about full reaction bonus in the fleet and half reaction bonus in the system?
I'd ask though what would happen if I had two fleets with two flag officers: would both bonuses apply so each fleet gets full bonus from its officer and half from the other? What about a third fleet, what bonus would it get? Just seeing the complications :)
The natural answer would be that the bonus from the highest ranking/most senior officer would apply, but would it stack with the bonus of the other flag officer? I'd suggest that in this case only the highest bonus would apply (either the fleet's own flag officer's full bonus or the half from the other...)
I don't like it. It's natural for the fleet/squad, not for some locus.
However, I must admit, it's mechanically simple, have some anchors in natural lore parts of Aurora, and, maybe, will free from some micro burden, especially if there will be simple way to see which officer is currently senior flag officer in this system / for this fleet.
I agree: it would be confusing unless there's an easy way to see whose is the highest ranking flag officer in the system.
-
How about full reaction bonus in the fleet and half reaction bonus in the system?
I think it has a benefit of inheriting the worse part of both alternatives: it's not simple anymore, an it's still unnatural.
-
What about being able to assign a ship(s) with flag bridge directly to a Naval Admin Command? Said ship would normally be kept at port or patrolling the local system and the NAC bonuses are applied normally to all other commands/ships below it.
If said ship leaves the system, the NAC bonus leaves with it, applying still only to those ships under its command. While the home system of the NAC loses the the bonuses while "The Flag is away", but the officer is still technically assigned the post so it doesn't get vacated and autopromoted into.
Flag bridges and officers in a regular old fleet would still function as they do currently. So you have your Commodore/Rear Admiral commanding individual squadrons while Vice Admiral So-n-So in the SS Big Bad and Scary overseeing the 1st expeditionary fleet command and on occasion goes on patrol when multiple squadrons are needed.
Edit: thinking about it, might want to also reduce the admin bonus while away from the home system. So that 1, encouraged to keep the officer in home port to get the full bonus and not just exploit it with just a single homeworld housing the entire Naval structure. And 2. Makes thematic sense, since the flag/ admin Commander wouldn't have their full staff and support network on board as opposed to being ashore