Author Topic: Ground Formation Size Test: 1 vs 100  (Read 2985 times)

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Offline Father Tim

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Re: Ground Formation Size Test: 1 vs 100
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2020, 09:34:29 AM »
I might not thing it is a huge problem but I do think it is a problem that you can META game the system like that... larger formations also is much easier to micromanage on top of everything else and retain good commanding bonuses better.


No, it's not a problem that you can game the system; it is only a problem if you must.
 
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Offline misanthropope

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Re: Ground Formation Size Test: 1 vs 100
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2020, 09:38:19 AM »
sorry if i've hijacked your thread, Garfunkel.  To attempt to merge back into your original inquiry, I am going to throw out the opinion that the real issue isn't that size games confer a large advantage, but that combat is deterministic and snowball-y enough that small advantages produce lopsided victory..  unfortunately that's a much harder problem to solve, even if steve regarded it as worth effort, which is doubtful.  combat by quadriture isn't so common because it's good, it's so common because you've got to put real effort into avoiding it.

FWIW it's improved over vb6, which was more deterministic, more snowbally *and* casualties were cheaper to replace for the victor. 

edit: the determinism is not actually a given.  it's easy to magic up 15000 tanks but it might be that campaign-buildable armies exhibit meaningful variation.  without just being able to stuff the ground combat inside a do loop it's a pretty grindy process to test it.
 

Offline Garfunkel (OP)

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Re: Ground Formation Size Test: 1 vs 100
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2020, 10:23:32 AM »
No problem at all, always good to test these things properly. I was thinking of doing another test but you did it for me which is great because I can go back to writing my AAR instead :)

As others said, this is only a problem if NPRs and spoilers make few huge formations AND the player has built many small formations. Even in that situation, force composition and technology differences, not to mention commander bonuses and supply issues, will probably have a lot more impact.

In player-vs-player battle, there is no problem at all because either one player micromanages ground units to the level of detail they want OR if it's an MP situation then they agree on a rough house rule or something like that.

I always say that you have to know the rules well so that you can bend/break them properly  ;D
 
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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Ground Formation Size Test: 1 vs 100
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2020, 03:08:20 PM »
I might not thing it is a huge problem but I do think it is a problem that you can META game the system like that... larger formations also is much easier to micromanage on top of everything else and retain good commanding bonuses better.


No, it's not a problem that you can game the system; it is only a problem if you must.

Not necessarily no, but in this instance i think there can be a better solution because you can by mistake game the system if you don't understand how the relationship work and then people complain about balance and why they loose even if they have a larger better army for example.
 
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Offline Father Tim

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Re: Ground Formation Size Test: 1 vs 100
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2020, 03:41:08 PM »
I might not thing it is a huge problem but I do think it is a problem that you can META game the system like that... larger formations also is much easier to micromanage on top of everything else and retain good commanding bonuses better.


No, it's not a problem that you can game the system; it is only a problem if you must.

Not necessarily no, but in this instance i think there can be a better solution because you can by mistake game the system if you don't understand how the relationship work and then people complain about balance and why they loose even if they have a larger better army for example.


The data above suggests you can't game the system over an NPR, but rather only handicap yourself for the sake of roleplay.  The 'big battalions' have a decided advantage over the individual squads. . . at least until you get down to the point of overkilling the squads by twenty or thirty times.
 

Offline Caplin

Re: Ground Formation Size Test: 1 vs 100
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2020, 04:28:26 PM »
Just a thought…

I remember Steve suggesting that the actual casualty figures for boarding actions, at least, not sure about other close combat, were often estimates based on what your units thought they had killed. Might this kind of fudging also be at  play here?
 

Offline misanthropope

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Re: Ground Formation Size Test: 1 vs 100
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2020, 04:52:40 PM »
again, none of the simulations presented has demonstrated an edge to be gained that would suffice against an opponent even 10% stronger than you.   
 
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