Author Topic: Costly Refits  (Read 3492 times)

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Offline Zincat

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Re: Costly Refits
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2021, 01:03:14 PM »
I generally retrofit. The reason is, as already said, experience. And experience can be vital in combat, and it's not fast to acquire. Especially for ships which have to act and reacy fast.

Just about the only time I do not retrofit is when I'm changing ship size. Say, it's been some years, I have a lot more yard capacity and so I decide I no longer need a 9000 ton ship because my new minumum will be 12000 or similar.

I do tend to make many small retrofits when I can though. It's rare that I wait until all components need to be upgraded.
Or course, your mileage may vary depending on the situation of the game at hand, but these are my general guidelines
 

Offline Panopticon

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Re: Costly Refits
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2021, 04:25:26 PM »
I'd probably commit to the full refit, it's still a little cheaper than a new ship, and you are upgrading for a reason, the old version is basically cannon fodder against your latest enemies. The experienced crew is a bonus as well of course.

I too want a mechanic to transfer experienced crew to a new vessel though.
 

Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: Costly Refits
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2021, 04:38:22 PM »
I see the crew experience as the confidence all the crew has dealing with the systems, moving around the ship, understand the procedures, etc.

In this meaning, a new ship will imply learning how to use the new systems, how to get around the ship efficiently, and learn new procedures.

Overall I am happy with losing the experience and I wouldn't want to be changed.

In terms of refit I think that Steve, you are a victim of your own choices ;D But it's cool you ask for feedback for something you have created.

I think the answers previous mine have summed it all: either proceed with a few refits at the time rather than a big one or just deal with refits when the time comes. Personally for any Military design, I always refit. Commercial ones are different, I often scrap and build the new ones with recycled components. I then scrap the leftover to recover the few wealth and minerals in it.
 
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Offline Bremen

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Re: Costly Refits
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2021, 06:38:53 PM »
I generally aim for a sort of tiered approach to ship design, combined with how I direct my research.

I mainly create a completely new design every time I develop new engines - those are large, expensive, and use valuable minerals (gallicite), so I almost never refit with new engines. I also almost never refit armor or shield generators - a lot of cost for a marginal improvement, and from a purely pragmatic perspective if the older ships are easier to destroy, they're also less valuable. So in an ideal world, I try to concentrate research so I get my new engine, armor, and shields done at a similar time to base the new design on.

Once I have my new design, I focus on researching things I will upgrade. Sensors, fire controls, and ECM are obvious candidates for upgrades, as they give a large performance increase for a small refit cost. Heavy beam weapons are another example - range is king in beam combat, so a new heavy railgun with 30,000 km longer range is something I consider worth the refit cost, as are magazines, though in both cases I try to keep ship tonnage as close as possible to minimize refit costs (and changes to the armor). As these finish I create a (b) variant, or even (c) and (d), to refit older ships to and new ones are built to that standard to begin with.

That leaves missile launchers and point defense weapons as somewhere in the middle - they're reasonably large and expensive to replace, but less so than engines or armor, and are generally pretty useful even at lower tech levels purely by weight of numbers. I may refit these components or I may not, mostly depending on opportunity costs (IE if I'm trying to expand my navy anyways I'll just build new ones, whereas if I'm content with my current forces I'll usually just pay to upgrade).

Then when I develop new engines/armor/shields the cycle begins again, with a II (or III, IV, etc) model utilizing those upgrades (new generations are also usually larger than the previous one). The b or c models of the older generation stick around for awhile, usually formed into their own fleets so they don't slow down newer, faster ships, but they don't usually get new refits after that point (why spend money on new fire controls for older ships when you could build new, faster ships?). I'd say that they get the less important jobs like guarding frontier colonies but that would be a lie - since I know I'm going to scrap the older ships eventually they usually get grabbed for the most dangerous assignments, like jump point assaults or investigating destroyed survey ships. I'm very ruthlessly pragmatic that way, and if I were doing more RPing I'd probably place a higher value on their commanders and crew.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 09:36:47 PM by Bremen »
 

Offline misanthropope

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Re: Costly Refits
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2021, 08:25:56 PM »
i pretty much don't refit anything but fire controls and electronic warfare.  my ships tend to grow pretty aggressively as my tech advances (because my economy is growing and i just don't want zillions of counters to push around), so even with refits an old ship never truly matches fleet standard. 

feel keeping old hulls active is one of the central objectives for the RP types, though.  for them i reckon it's more a question of "what's the least wasteful way of keeping bessie here relevant to the plot?".  tbh bessie probably indeed has more individuality than any of weber's quote-unquote characters
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Costly Refits
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2021, 08:49:30 PM »
I'm in the camp of not refitting the most expensive components such as engines, armour and some of the more less efficient components. Things like electronics and beam weapons are just fine to replace most of the time and if you refit in stages cost are not being huge.

Ships are either relegated to other support duties... an old frigate or destroyer might become a system defense force or support ship escort where it's speed is not as important for example. With updated electronics and weapons a ship can still be pretty good for a long time.

As ships also tend to increase in size over time then refitting ships become a non issue as it is simply not desirable.

So... some ships get reassigned into a new role and some will simply be scrapped to make room for a larger more capable ship to replace them. A typical Destroyer class ship with a fleet escort role will for example grow from 8-10kt to perhaps 25kt at a later stage. Those small 8kt ships simply don fit into the role of fleet escort anymore, they simply lack the capabilities even if modernized with all components.
 

Offline Agraelgrimm

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Re: Costly Refits
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2021, 03:10:08 AM »
I'm faced with a situation where almost every tech has advanced since the last round of refits, so the cost to refit is almost the same as building new. I wondered what other people do in this situation.

Here is the existing Sword class frigate:

Sword II class Frigate      9,375 tons       284 Crew       1,571 BP       TCS 187    TH 900    EM 1,380
4800 km/s      Armour 4-39       Shields 46-368       HTK 64      Sensors 6/8/0/0      DCR 6      PPV 44.32
Maint Life 2.65 Years     MSP 628    AFR 117%    IFR 1.6%    1YR 127    5YR 1,902    Max Repair 225 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Ravenor Drive Systems RDS-450B Ion Drive (2)    Power 900    Fuel Use 63.75%    Signature 450    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 656,000 Litres    Range 19.8 billion km (47 days at full power)
Valentinian-Stern VS-46 Void Shield  (1)     Recharge Time 368 seconds (0.1 per second)

Astaroth Kinetics AK-20 Weapons Battery (4x4)    Range 160,000km     TS: 4,800 km/s     Power 12-4     RM 40,000 km    ROF 15       
Dominus-Varnus Defence Systems DV-2 Defence Turret (1x6)    Range 30,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
MK I Defence Turret Fire Control (1)     Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 16,000 km/s     84 69 53 38 22 6 0 0 0 0
MK II Energy Weapon Fire Control (2)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 4,800 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
R-8 Magnetic Mirror Fusion Reactor (2)     Total Power Output 16.6    Exp 5%

MK II Frigate Active Augur Array (1)     GPS 8640     Range 66.8m km    Resolution 120
MK II Torpedo Detection Array (1)     GPS 32     Range 9m km    MCR 812.4k km    Resolution 1
MK I Thermal Augur Array (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  19.4m km
MK II Electromagnetic Augur Array (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22.4m km

Here is the latest design. Apart from the obvious new engines, I have to add fire controls that match the higher speed. Better weapons are available and I also have ECM/ECCM, improved sensors and improved shields.

Sword III class Frigate      9,600 tons       310 Crew       1,814.3 BP       TCS 192    TH 1,152    EM 2,130
6000 km/s      Armour 4-40       Shields 71-426       HTK 70      Sensors 8/11/0/0      DCR 6      PPV 40
Maint Life 2.44 Years     MSP 708    AFR 123%    IFR 1.7%    1YR 163    5YR 2,452    Max Repair 288 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Ravenor RDS-576-B Magneto-Plasma Drive (2)    Power 1152    Fuel Use 63.75%    Signature 576    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 642,000 Litres    Range 18.9 billion km (36 days at full power)
Valentinian-Stern VS-70 Void Shield  (1)     Recharge Time 426 seconds (0.2 per second)

Astaroth Kinetics AK-25 Weapons Battery (5x4)    Range 250,000km     TS: 6,000 km/s     Power 15-3.75     RM 50,000 km    ROF 20       
MK III Energy Weapon Fire Control (2)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 6,000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
R-9 Stellarator Fusion Reactor (2)     Total Power Output 19    Exp 5%

MK III Frigate Active Augur Array (1)     GPS 8190     Range 76.2m km    Resolution 120
MK III Torpedo Detection Array (1)     GPS 21     Range 8.6m km    MCR 771.7k km    Resolution 1
MK II Thermal Augur Array (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22.4m km
MK III Electromagnetic Augur Array (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  26.2m km

ECCM-1 (1)         ECM 10

Refit cost is 1733 BP (compared to 1814 BP) for new build, although it includes only 1416 tons of minerals. The obvious con is that I could build a new ship for virtually the same amount. The pros are that I preserve the experienced crew and I don't end up with out of date ships that I have to maintain anyway. With the total tonnage requirement for maintenance in C# Aurora, overall maintenance capacity is a consideration in addition to the required MSP to keep the ship maintained. Regarding the latter point, I suppose the 'cost' of a ship should include the maintenance. The MSP requirement over ten years would be 3x class cost, which is 75% of ship cost in wealth and minerals. When that is considered, the refit cost is a smaller percentage of the whole.

An alternative is a refit that leave some systems, such as weapons, intact and only upgrades engines, shields and electronics. This would cost 1154 BP, of which 942 tons would minerals. The pro is that it is cheaper and therefore I can refit more ships for the same time and cost plus the ship can operate with new Sword IIIs, but it leaves the design much shorter-ranged weapons and no ECM/ECCM..

Sword II - B class Frigate      9,600 tons       290 Crew       1,789.7 BP       TCS 192    TH 1,152    EM 2,130
6000 km/s      Armour 4-40       Shields 71-426       HTK 64      Sensors 8/11/0/0      DCR 6      PPV 44.32
Maint Life 2.42 Years     MSP 699    AFR 123%    IFR 1.7%    1YR 164    5YR 2,456    Max Repair 288 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Ravenor RDS-576-B Magneto-Plasma Drive (2)    Power 1152    Fuel Use 63.75%    Signature 576    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 611,000 Litres    Range 18 billion km (34 days at full power)
Valentinian-Stern VS-70 Void Shield  (1)     Recharge Time 426 seconds (0.2 per second)

Astaroth Kinetics AK-20 Weapons Battery (4x4)    Range 160,000km     TS: 6,000 km/s     Power 12-4     RM 40,000 km    ROF 15       
Dominus-Varnus Defence Systems DV-2 Defence Turret (1x6)    Range 30,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
MK I Defence Turret Fire Control (1)     Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 16,000 km/s     84 69 53 38 22 6 0 0 0 0
MK III Energy Weapon Fire Control (2)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 6,000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
R-8 Magnetic Mirror Fusion Reactor (2)     Total Power Output 16.6    Exp 5%

MK III Frigate Active Augur Array (1)     GPS 8190     Range 76.2m km    Resolution 120
MK II Torpedo Detection Array (1)     GPS 32     Range 9m km    MCR 812.4k km    Resolution 1
MK II Thermal Augur Array (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22.4m km
MK III Electromagnetic Augur Array (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  26.2m km

Or I just keep the old ships un-refitted and hope I run into a threat against which they would be useful. Currently I am refitting to the II-B design and building a small number of IIIs from scratch, but not I'm not convinced I have the best strategy so interested in opinions.

Honestly, i would just refit the minimum amount of components as possible. Meaning the sensors for better tracking speed, i would probably make it more cost efficient engines if possible, so they would require less BP, however it would be more endurance, then i would just refit the point defense, maybe lower the armaments a little and reassign it to Lesser escort roles for civillian ships or make it fit for patrol, lesser planetary defense, etc.

The reason for this is that by this point you lose twice if you refit. First you will lose one ship, as the build order will take the same amount of time and more resources to produce a lesser ship. And it will be lesser because you can redesign a new ship to perform better with the new systems, it will probably reduce the BP required too.

Second, for the price you are paying, you are stuck with a lesser, expensive ship instead of having one obsolete and one top Notch ship. So reassignment or scrapping are both options on this one. I would just go for reassignment and if you really have to refit, make it for a endurance type of ship instead of going for speed and you have a secondary protection or patrol fleet. And if chosen the refit route, i would probably take out most of the ship's weapons and go heavy on defense missile, would avoid having to use magazines for it tough, so 12-36 box launchers for each ship, and gauss cannons for PD. That would do the trick to protect civililian ships, supplement Defense batteries around planets (in this case you dont even have to mess with the engines).
 

Offline King-Salomon

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Re: Costly Refits
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2021, 05:58:59 AM »
think about it - if you refit, you get a single up to date frigate, if you build a new one, you have the old one and the new one at the same cost.

The problem is it won't be the same cost. I will have twice the tonnage to maintain and you pay for a ship again every thirteen years, not to mention the new ship will have an inexperienced crew while the experienced crew will be in an out-of-date ship. I'm actually leaning toward refitting even with almost the same cost. I created this thread to see if people could talk me out of it :)

well, about the experienced crew - with a month/year-long refit the exp could decline - or much better - allow the transfer of crew to an other ship with looses say 10-25% of the exp points (so the other vessel starts with more exp than when it would otherwise - transfer could be limmited to only mil-mil and civ-civ 
this would allow a new role to training-ships (transfering the crew to a new build one instead of adding to the "pool" ) and solve your "problem" :D
 

Offline serger

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Re: Costly Refits
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2021, 06:21:17 AM »
It can be implemented a bit easier, I think: just make separate pools for green and fully-trained crews, and feel the latter only with smth like CrewSize*CurrentCrewGrade/MaxCrewGrade after scrapping, refitting with a reduction of crew size and by a Crew Rotation command/button.
 

Offline TMaekler

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Re: Costly Refits
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2021, 07:33:21 AM »
I'm faced with a situation where almost every tech has advanced since the last round of refits, so the cost to refit is almost the same as building new. I wondered what other people do in this situation.

I would role-play it. Do I need extra weapons power, more ships to keep the enemy away - then I would build new ships. But if I can manage everything with what I have then keeping the experienced crews on modern ships would be worthwhile.
 

Offline Arwyn

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Re: Costly Refits
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2021, 11:23:46 AM »
I refit the majority of the time, but I do so earlier and more often. It winds up being more expensive over time, but keeping the crew experience has been (generally) worth it if I have hostile NPR's in action.

The delay in crew training is a real drag in the naval pipeline, so keeping the experience is worth it to me. Especially if there is shooting going on. Not to mention the whole officer shuffle that goes on if you scrap and build new. If you want the new ship trained up fast, it means putting an experienced (and more valuable) officer in charge of a ship thats not going to be available for months.

Now, if there is no threat, than the time investment isnt that much of an issue, so new build is the cheaper route to go. Even then I hate giving up experience crews.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Costly Refits
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2021, 02:37:17 AM »
I'm faced with a situation where almost every tech has advanced since the last round of refits, so the cost to refit is almost the same as building new. I wondered what other people do in this situation.

I would role-play it. Do I need extra weapons power, more ships to keep the enemy away - then I would build new ships. But if I can manage everything with what I have then keeping the experienced crews on modern ships would be worthwhile.

If role-play is a significant factor (which is normally is for me), then I probably should just refit. In WH40k, the Imperium has the same ships in service for thousands of years.
 

Offline Panopticon

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Re: Costly Refits
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2021, 03:02:46 AM »
I'm faced with a situation where almost every tech has advanced since the last round of refits, so the cost to refit is almost the same as building new. I wondered what other people do in this situation.

I would role-play it. Do I need extra weapons power, more ships to keep the enemy away - then I would build new ships. But if I can manage everything with what I have then keeping the experienced crews on modern ships would be worthwhile.

If role-play is a significant factor (which is normally is for me), then I probably should just refit. In WH40k, the Imperium has the same ships in service for thousands of years.

Your Imperium is more in the Great Crusade era where they actually built stuff, but yeah flavor wise refitting still makes more sense.
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Costly Refits
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2021, 08:23:43 AM »
I almost always refit as much as possible, something about seeing the "same" ships in service as long as possible tickles my fancy.