Author Topic: Jayne's Fighting Ships of the Haven Sector (Manticore Defiant Ship Designs) (Read 2846 times)

rainyday · « **on:** September 27, 2022, 08:06:17 PM »

This thread will serve as a compendium of ship designs from my multiple player race Honorverse AAR: Manticore Defiant (http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=13085.msg162008#msg162008). While I encourage feedback, comments or suggestions for future development of the various factions, I'm definitely aware that the weapons mix on many of these ships is unconventional and not "meta". This is to fit the lore. I've reviewed all the available lore books and a "standard warship" in this setting carries a balanced armament, quite often with an equal number of missile launchers, lasers and point defense installations. Ships that deviate from this pattern tend to have a note about how they are particularly missile or beam heavy.

As noted in the introduction to my AAR, I used information from the Jayne's Intelligence Review and Saganami Island Ship Books to calculate the volume of a series of reference hulls and from that approximated hydrogen displacement tons (used by Aurora). The resulting ships were still quite large in Aurora terms, so I divided all of the derived sizes in half. This tends to work out nicely in the few cases where the exact armaments of ships from the earlier Manticore Ascendant era are known. I expect later in the campaign smaller ships like destroyers and cruisers will grow to be near their actual size, but even 1:2 scale battleships and the like are just too massive so I'm working closer to probably a 1:4 scale for those. Fortunately, MA battleships were much smaller than their later era counterparts so let's just pretend it works out. They'll still be beasts in Aurora terms.

Weapons of the Honorverse (1590)

Autocannon (Railguns) - the point defense weapon of choice in the present era. Smaller navies or pirates sometimes employ large autocannon in offensive roles.

Countermissile (AMM) - as the name implies, countermissiles are used to shoot down incoming missiles. These have not been developed yet in lore or game.

Energy Torpedo (Plasma Carronade) - a large, slow firing energy weapon that does extreme damage at point blank range. Usually found on very large heavily armored ships.

Laser (Laser) - the standard energy weapon employed in various calibers by all mainstream navies.

Missiles (ASM) - almost every ship in this setting is equipped with at least a few missiles in either standard or external launchers. Most navies employ multiple sizes of missiles with light, heavy and capital missiles being the most common designations. Larger ships need bigger warheads to more effectively damage the heavy armor of their peers.

Point Defense Cluster (Gauss Cannon) - eventually replaces autocannon in the final fire point defense role. Not developed yet in this era.

Sidewall (Shields) - no navy in the present era has deployed sidewalls yet

Comparison of Missiles in use in the Haven Sector (1590)

Imperial Andermani Navy
The IAN's missile doctrine is based on high damage alpha strikes to soften up enemy fleets while closing to energy range. Unlike more conventional navies, it has standardized on a single missile design, a licensed local variant of the Solarian League's last generation capital ship killer the Starscream (Sternenschrei). These missiles are manufactured in single use pods that can be carried on external rails by even the smallest IAN combatants. A stealth corvette armed with Sternenschrei can severely damage unsuspecting targets far above its own weight class.

Kretschmer Sternenschrei
SZ: 8 Speed: 20000 km/s Range: 10.4mkm WH: 9

Royal Manticoran Navy
The RMN utilizes a traditional missile doctrine with reduced size magazine fed launchers. It tends to favor small, slow firing launchers in order to pack more weight of fire into individual salvos. The RMN prefers to stand off and engage in sustained missile duels, so most ships have sufficient magazine space for 5-10 salvos. At present the RMN uses size 4 light missiles on small combatants and size 6 heavy missiles on its cruisers and battlecruisers. The missiles are designed to allow salvos from mixed task groups to arrive close enough together to saturate an opponent's point defense capabilities.

Mark 4 Light Missile (RMN)
SZ: 4 Speed: 18200 km/s Range: 10.2mkm WH: 6

Mark 6 Heavy Missile (RMN)
SZ: 6 Speed: 17933 km/s Range: 10.1mkm WH:9

rainyday · « **Reply #1 on:** September 27, 2022, 09:32:14 PM »

Imperial Andermani Navy Ranks
Großadmiral der Flotte
Großadmiral
Admiral
Vizeadmiral
Konteradmiral
Flotillenadmiral
Kapitän der Sterne
Fregattenkapitän
Korvettenkapitän
Kapitänleutnant

Imperial Andermani Naval Doctrine (1590)
The IAN favors very aggressive tactics utilizing fast ships with powerful, hard-hitting weapons. Most of their ships mount significant numbers of capital grade missiles on external rails, which let them punch far above their weight class. Since these external missiles are prone to exploding under fire, standard doctrine is to flush all missiles before closing to beam range. The default tactic of an Andermani fleet is to charge directly at an opponent, fire a massive alpha strike of capital missiles while closing and then finish off any survivors with heavy energy weapons at point blank range. The IAN also employs stealth systems in a variety of reconnaissance and offensive roles. Many an unsuspecting foe has been blasted out of space by missiles that appeared out of nowhere.

IAN / Battleships and Battlecruisers

Some say that Gustav Anderman invented the battleship while working as a mercenary for the Solarian League. Whether this is true or not, the IAN did possess the first battleship in the Haven Sector: SMS Vergeltung. That battleship was built in the League and served as the flagship of the IAN until it was replaced by Friedrich der Große around 1540. She was later scrapped after being heavily damaged in the Battle of Tomlinson (1546).

To date the IAN is the only power in the Haven Sector that possesses battleships, and they are largely status symbols rather than practical units. They're too large to utilize the wormhole transit device aboard the IAN's Blucher-class Fleet Support Vessel, meaning they are limited to operating within the stabilized wormhole network, and primarily serve as the flagship of system defense fleets guarding key Imperial worlds. Offensive operations are carried out by the battlecruisers and their smaller escorts.

Friedrich der Große class Battleship
Units in Service: Friedrich der Große (BB-02), Gustav Anderman (BB-03)

Friedrich der Große has served as the flagship of the IAN for over fifty years. Although old and small by modern Solarian standards, she and her consort Gustav Anderman significantly out mass everything else in the Haven Sector. Like most IAN designs, these battleships carry capital grade missiles on external racks and a powerful energy armament. Built around a 25cm spinal laser, the battleships also mount thirty 20cm lasers and twenty 100mm autocannons for point defense. Both battleships have flag accommodations and extensive sensor suites allowing them to serve as command ships. They also have boat bay capacity for a scout pinnace to extend the fleet's sensor envelope.

Off-Topic: show

Yùhuáng class Battlecruiser
Units in Service: Yùhuáng (BC-01), Changxi (BC-03), He Xiangu (BC-04)
Destroyed: Zhong Kui (1546)

The Yùhuáng class battlecruiser is the heavy workhorse of the IAN. Critics of the design claim that its enhanced speed and endurance come at the cost of its armament, which is comparatively light for a ship of this size. Even Manticore's smaller, older battlecruisers carry 50% more weapons. The difference is that the IAN's battlecruisers are designed for cruising, long term offensive operations, chasing down smaller enemy combatants and commerce raiding. They form the core of offensive fleets, operating outside the stabilized wormhole network with squadrons of fast frigates to serve as scouts and screening elements. The powerful 25cm spinal laser is capable of punching through the armor of most destroyer escorts in a single shot at close range, while ten rapid firing 15cm lasers help to carve up tougher targets and ten autocannon provide a moderate point defense capability, intended to be supplemented by the escorting frigates. The basic, but comprehensive, sensor package ensures nothing can sneak up on the battlecruiser if it somehow gets separated from its escorts, but locating targets within a system is handled by frigates or the onboard scout pinnace.

Off-Topic: show

nuclearslurpee · « **Reply #2 on:** September 27, 2022, 10:33:38 PM »

Quote from: rainyday on September 27, 2022, 08:06:17 PM

The resulting ships were still quite large in Aurora terms, so I divided all of the derived sizes in half.

Cowards.

Jokes aside, I must wholeheartedly approve of a tastefully-done and high-effort ship designs compendium thread, it may not be a drawn-out naval conference but it is still a mark of a high-quality AAR.

Quote from: rainyday on September 27, 2022, 09:32:14 PM

To date the IAN is the only power in the Haven Sector that possesses battleships, and they are largely status symbols rather than practical units. They're too large to utilize the wormhole transit device aboard the IAN's Blucher-class Fleet Support Vessel, meaning they are limited to operating within the stabilized wormhole network, and primarily serve as the flagship of system defense fleets guarding key Imperial worlds. Offensive operations are carried out by the battlecruisers and their smaller escorts.

One suspects that this will greatly limit the ability of the Andermani to prosecute an actual war against someone who is a slightly more difficult opponent than the local restless natives.

Quote

The Yùhuáng class battlecruiser is the heavy workhorse of the IAN. Critics of the design claim that its enhanced speed and endurance come at the cost of its armament, which is comparatively light for a ship of this size. Even Manticore's smaller, older battlecruisers carry 50% more weapons. The difference is that the IAN's battlecruisers are designed for cruising, long term offensive operations, chasing down smaller enemy combatants and commerce raiding. They form the core of offensive fleets,

One suspects that this will also greatly limit the ability of the Andermani to prosecute an actual war against someone who is a slightly more difficult opponent than the local restless natives, albeit for very different reasons. Speed and endurance is nice, but what wins the wormhole assault is firepower and armor/sidewalls.

Some very nice reference images as well, I assume from the rather non-digital appearance that these are scans from your prodigious reference library?

rainyday · « **Reply #3 on:** September 27, 2022, 11:32:41 PM »

Quote from: nuclearslurpee on September 27, 2022, 10:33:38 PM

One suspects that this will also greatly limit the ability of the Andermani to prosecute an actual war against someone who is a slightly more difficult opponent than the local restless natives, albeit for very different reasons. Speed and endurance is nice, but what wins the wormhole assault is firepower and armor/sidewalls.

I suppose that's lore accurate, at least. The Andermani grew their Empire by bullying small single system star nations in a backwater corner of the galaxy where nobody else could afford more than a few ships. They may be in for a rude awakening if they try to go up against someone their own size. This ship is weird though. I designed these almost a month ago and I've actually been using them, but I didn't realize how little firepower it had until I was writing the blurb. I spent a good ten minutes looking at the ship components tab trying to figure out where the extra space went, if I accidentally put in 20 sensors or something. Other than a slightly high number of engineering spaces, it's just propulsion and armor, combined with a bunch of little niceties like the ECM, Boat Bay, ENG, that all add up.

Quote

Some very nice reference images as well, I assume from the rather non-digital appearance that these are scans from your prodigious reference library?

They're from the latest Manticore Ascendant book which conveniently takes place in the Andermani Empire in 1546. Unfortunately, they don't include the cool diagrams in the e-book, and I haven't been able to find these plates online. I snapped photos in a bookstore awhile back to use as size reference for the various Andermani ships which is why they're a bit blurry.

rainyday · « **Reply #4 on:** September 28, 2022, 12:36:54 AM »

IAN / Heavy Cruisers (1590)

Freikorps class Heavy Cruiser
Units in Service: Freikorps (CA-01), Landsknecht (CA-02), Musketier (CA-05), Pikenier (CA-06)

While most navies choose destroyers for dedicated point defense roles, the IAN considers them much too fragile to survive a point-blank energy engagement and therefore unsuitable for the wall of battle. The glorious charges of its heavy warships are covered by Freikorps-class point defense cruisers, which can put up an impressive wall of metal from their twenty-eight autocannon. On average, each cannon will shoot down one of the IAN's own Kretschmer Sternenschrei missiles every five seconds, allowing a single Freikorps to neutralize incoming fire from a whole division or two of more traditionally armed ships her size. In addition, the Freikorps carries the IAN's ubiquitous 25cm spinal laser to give it some long-range offensive firepower.

Off-Topic: show

Kriegsgeißel class Heavy Cruiser
Units in Service: Kriegsgeißel (CA-03), Kriegshammer (CA-04), Hakenspieß (CA-07), Hellbarde (CA-08), Langschwert (CA-09), Langbogen (CA-10), Ritterschwert (CA-11)

The Kriegsgeißel is the primary offensive unit in the IAN's current wall of battle. Effectively a scaled down Yùhuáng-class battlecruiser without the added speed, armor and endurance, the Kriegsgeißel boasts almost as much firepower as its larger sibling with a 25cm spinal laser, eight 15cm lasers, seven autocannon, and rack space for 24 missiles. They can often be found in company with the larger battleships and battlecruisers or operating in heavy cruiser squadrons with a pair of Freikorps.

Off-Topic: show

Gyrfalcon · « **Reply #5 on:** September 28, 2022, 03:39:51 AM »

Is there a reason you're using so many missile fire controls for the external racks? I know in the Honorverse one of the primary issues with podnaughts was solving the MFC saturation issue when you launch 10,000 missiles from one SD(P). Are you handing it such that one MFC can only handle x missiles? And in that case, will you be simulating improvements to the technology down the line?

nuclearslurpee · « **Reply #6 on:** September 28, 2022, 07:43:26 AM »

Quote from: rainyday on September 27, 2022, 11:32:41 PM

This ship is weird though. I designed these almost a month ago and I've actually been using them, but I didn't realize how little firepower it had until I was writing the blurb. I spent a good ten minutes looking at the ship components tab trying to figure out where the extra space went, if I accidentally put in 20 sensors or something. Other than a slightly high number of engineering spaces, it's just propulsion and armor, combined with a bunch of little niceties like the ECM, Boat Bay, ENG, that all add up.

I usually have found that trying to stick a big propulsion section on a ship tends to take up a lot of space very quickly, given that for a ship of a given size a pretty good chunk of your tonnage is pretty much spoken for (armor, crew, engineering, and so on). If you were going up against NPRs at an even tech level there would be a serious concern about being beaten in volume of fire, albeit probably not that serious since NPR fleet comps are trash. However, you would have no problem bravely running away from such an encounter.

Quote from: Gyrfalcon on September 28, 2022, 03:39:51 AM

Is there a reason you're using so many missile fire controls for the external racks? I know in the Honorverse one of the primary issues with podnaughts was solving the MFC saturation issue when you launch 10,000 missiles from one SD(P). Are you handing it such that one MFC can only handle x missiles? And in that case, will you be simulating improvements to the technology down the line?

I basically use a similar ratio, at least in my case the idea is to limit the size of the individual missile salvo (mechanical salvo as in a single contact of X missiles, not the full volley) to optimize a bit and induce some salvo overkill effects to waste enemy PD fire. It's not a huge opportunity cost since if you reduce to only 2 MFCs in this case you only gain 2 launchers on the CA or 4 on the BC, a quite modest increase in firepower that will rarely make a big difference.

It can also be useful if you need to spread your fire across many smaller targets, such as FACs or the kinds of small corvettes a player race might use.

rainyday · « **Reply #7 on:** September 28, 2022, 10:45:06 AM »

Quote from: Gyrfalcon on September 28, 2022, 03:39:51 AM

Is there a reason you're using so many missile fire controls for the external racks? I know in the Honorverse one of the primary issues with podnaughts was solving the MFC saturation issue when you launch 10,000 missiles from one SD(P). Are you handing it such that one MFC can only handle x missiles?

That wasn't the reason, but it's a really cool idea. I might have to use that in the fiction somehow. It is very lore appropriate.

All the reasons nuclearslurpee listed are true. Fighting FACs especially has been a concern for me in recent games and since this game has multiple player races it's more likely. You'll find a similar ratio of launchers to fire controls on the Manticoran ships because I've found that 6-8 is a comfortable salvo size against smaller targets. These are expensive missiles with relatively huge warheads for the tech, so I don't want to massively overkill small craft. But the main reason is that we don't have the 2.2 QoL change to assign a set number of launchers with a single click so having a bunch of fire controls on box launcher ships makes it much less painful to control salvo sizes in cases where you don't want to fire every single missile you have for strategic reasons. That shouldn't be a problem for these, especially if they are following the doctrine described, but is very annoying on ships with 100s of box launchers.

The tonnage wasted is actually less than nuclearslurpee estimated. Because of the short range these are 15-ton MFCs and massive 60-ton box launchers, so it would be one more missile for every 4 fire controls removed. You could possibly gain 1 extra missile on the BB but only about 30 tons on the other ships. If the resolution was higher or the tech was better, they could be even smaller.

Quote from: nuclearslurpee on September 28, 2022, 07:43:26 AM

I usually have found that trying to stick a big propulsion section on a ship tends to take up a lot of space very quickly... if you were going up against NPRs at an even tech level there would be a serious concern about being beaten in volume of fire

Yeah. I have to agree with this. I find the obsession that some people in this community have with maximizing speed a bit absurd considering how NPRs build their ships. I mainly wanted the Andermani ships to be faster than the Manticorans at the start of the campaign to represent the difference in their doctrines, but the Manticoran ships were already using heavily boosted engines, so the only way to accomplish it was to increase propulsion mass. I might have pushed it too far and unless some kind of speed arms race starts both factions may accept a more modest speed bump in the next generation to get a bit more efficiency. The RMN in particular is really struggling to support its current engines without fuel harvester tech.

nuclearslurpee · « **Reply #8 on:** September 28, 2022, 10:12:43 PM »

Quote from: rainyday on September 28, 2022, 10:45:06 AM

Yeah. I have to agree with this. I find the obsession that some people in this community have with maximizing speed a bit absurd considering how NPRs build their ships. I mainly wanted the Andermani ships to be faster than the Manticorans at the start of the campaign to represent the difference in their doctrines, but the Manticoran ships were already using heavily boosted engines, so the only way to accomplish it was to increase propulsion mass. I might have pushed it too far and unless some kind of speed arms race starts both factions may accept a more modest speed bump in the next generation to get a bit more efficiency. The RMN in particular is really struggling to support its current engines without fuel harvester tech.

I think most of the players you're talking about are the kinds of players who think tactics wins every battle, which is certainly true against the NPRs, and thus maximize speed so they can maximize tactics (I simplify for the sake of argument). However, strategically there is a tighter balance - speed might let you avoid or force an engagement, but firepower and armor/shields will win you that engagement, and a fast fleet that can't win an engagement cannot prevent the enemy from going wherever he wants to go. Especially given how central jump point assaults are to Aurora's warfare, which is probably the single biggest oversight I see in players' ship designs (not even due to roleplay, as in this and most AARs).

Jorgen_CAB · « **Reply #9 on:** September 30, 2022, 03:15:07 AM »

Quote from: nuclearslurpee on September 28, 2022, 10:12:43 PM

Quote from: rainyday on September 28, 2022, 10:45:06 AM
Yeah. I have to agree with this. I find the obsession that some people in this community have with maximizing speed a bit absurd considering how NPRs build their ships. I mainly wanted the Andermani ships to be faster than the Manticorans at the start of the campaign to represent the difference in their doctrines, but the Manticoran ships were already using heavily boosted engines, so the only way to accomplish it was to increase propulsion mass. I might have pushed it too far and unless some kind of speed arms race starts both factions may accept a more modest speed bump in the next generation to get a bit more efficiency. The RMN in particular is really struggling to support its current engines without fuel harvester tech.

I think most of the players you're talking about are the kinds of players who think tactics wins every battle, which is certainly true against the NPRs, and thus maximize speed so they can maximize tactics (I simplify for the sake of argument). However, strategically there is a tighter balance - speed might let you avoid or force an engagement, but firepower and armor/shields will win you that engagement, and a fast fleet that can't win an engagement cannot prevent the enemy from going wherever he wants to go. Especially given how central jump point assaults are to Aurora's warfare, which is probably the single biggest oversight I see in players' ship designs (not even due to roleplay, as in this and most AARs).

In addition to this... planets have zero speed as well (or well... very low speeds anyway and are predictable). Speed as you say is a tactical tool... but so is sensors. The one who find the opponent first will generally have a huge advantage, especially if the other side don't know it has been found. Speed here can often be of very little advantage, speed is generally just going to get you found first (more speed equals more thermal emitted). It does not really matter with the speed of the ship if they have to run away from the thing they are suppose to protect.

This is also why speed is only ONE factor of the overall ship doctrine which is important. Speed is generally most important for Beam oriented ships and to some degree direct missile ships (especially with shorter range missiles, fighters/FAC in particular). If you have an overall slow fleet you can have some really fast beam escort... the beam escort might be armed with very good long range beams, such as particle weapons or lasers. They can then sprint ahead of the fleet and engage an enemy and protect the slower ships from beam combat. If you do this you can afford to have your beam ships use very fast engines as it will not be a huge strain on your overall fleet cost, engines is a huge cost. If the opponent have a normalised speed of say 5000km/s on all their ships you might have yours at around 3500km/s but beam combat ships at 6000km/s. Thus you can tactically outrange the opponent or decide the engagement. Your slower ships also will be able to carry more mission tonnage as they have less engines.

Strategic mobility can be important too, but it does come with a huge cost. Speed is in many way important, but an over emphasize on it can also leave your overall fleet impotent over someone that have not overengineered in it.

nuclearslurpee · « **Reply #10 on:** September 30, 2022, 03:27:35 PM »

Quote from: Jorgen_CAB on September 30, 2022, 03:15:07 AM

Speed is in many way important, but an over emphasize on it can also leave your overall fleet impotent over someone that have not overengineered in it.

Just don't say that on the Reddit Aurora forum...

Jorgen_CAB · « **Reply #11 on:** September 30, 2022, 04:03:55 PM »

Quote from: nuclearslurpee on September 30, 2022, 03:27:35 PM

Quote from: Jorgen_CAB on September 30, 2022, 03:15:07 AM
Speed is in many way important, but an over emphasize on it can also leave your overall fleet impotent over someone that have not overengineered in it.

Just don't say that on the Reddit Aurora forum...

I'm well aware of the love for speed in many peoples hearts, I also to some extent understand why... but it is very easy to squander resources on luxury things when you have lot's more than the opponent or the opponent does not surprise you with alternative strategies.

My issue is that.. especially if you play against the AI... then speed is actually even less of an issue. But I don't think people even try other strategies. Sensors and information are even more powerful against the AI as it is quite easy to fool by attacking it with no idea where you even are. Attacking AI with ECM induced missiles also seem OP, as they don't put ECCM in their AMMs, at least I managed to defeat a much more advance AI that way not long ago. I just had basically container carriers with (very cheap and slow) filled with strike crafts and scouts. The AI had no counter to that what so ever... that is why I prefer to play multiple faction but I do retain AI threats as well.

But I think that, as I mostly play multiple factions, it is generally paramount that you get most of the resources you have to find a doctrine that works best for you (or rather the individual faction). This will include everything from terrain, resources, scientists, alliances, threats etc... How much are you investing on defensive or offensive capacity, obviously depend on your resources quite often and this influence the type of ships you can build and how they are designed. Just the fact that you will never ever have a perfectly homogeneous fleet in such environments make it obvious that things are not as easy as one tactic defeat all others.

Then obviously we have role play which in turn make things way more complicated as it now involves politics and that people have difference of opinions as to what is the best thing to do and prioritise. This also will influence ship doctrines and developments and not always for good, which lead ship to become... well... not optimised. At least I try to play my games as if the factions experience everything for the first time, so I can't draw on previous game experience. We can't very well press pause and reset from a previous save in real life either...

It is better to have a bunch of crappy ships today than a score of superior ones tomorrow if the war is today. The thing is... you don't know when that next conflict will start either.

But anyway... I'm just mumbling now so I better stop...

Jorgen_CAB · « **Reply #12 on:** September 30, 2022, 04:10:25 PM »

Forgot to say that I really like all the ships presented so far in this thread and the thought behind them, this is what this game is all about.

Please post more as it develops... if there is combat what did they learn and how do the doctrines change?

Author Topic: Jayne's Fighting Ships of the Haven Sector (Manticore Defiant Ship Designs) (Read 2846 times)

rainyday (OP)

Jayne's Fighting Ships of the Haven Sector (Manticore Defiant Ship Designs)

rainyday (OP)

Battleships and Battlecruisers of the Imperial Andermani Navy

nuclearslurpee

Re: Jayne's Fighting Ships of the Haven Sector (Manticore Defiant Ship Designs)

rainyday (OP)

Re: Jayne's Fighting Ships of the Haven Sector (Manticore Defiant Ship Designs)

rainyday (OP)

Heavy Cruisers of the Imperial Andermani Navy

Gyrfalcon

Re: Jayne's Fighting Ships of the Haven Sector (Manticore Defiant Ship Designs)

nuclearslurpee

Re: Jayne's Fighting Ships of the Haven Sector (Manticore Defiant Ship Designs)

rainyday (OP)

Re: Jayne's Fighting Ships of the Haven Sector (Manticore Defiant Ship Designs)

nuclearslurpee

Re: Jayne's Fighting Ships of the Haven Sector (Manticore Defiant Ship Designs)

Jorgen_CAB

Re: Jayne's Fighting Ships of the Haven Sector (Manticore Defiant Ship Designs)

nuclearslurpee

Re: Jayne's Fighting Ships of the Haven Sector (Manticore Defiant Ship Designs)

Jorgen_CAB

Re: Jayne's Fighting Ships of the Haven Sector (Manticore Defiant Ship Designs)

Jorgen_CAB

Re: Jayne's Fighting Ships of the Haven Sector (Manticore Defiant Ship Designs)