Pirates

[Jorgen_CAB]

I think that Rakhas could eventually be used as a neutral pirate faction in Aurora. Their planets could spawn pirate ships and small fleets with the intent to board and capture civilian ships.

These small pirate fleets could also spawn small pirate bases in system they operate with some ground defences and acting as pirate nests etc...

[papent]

I think that Rakhas could eventually be used as a neutral pirate faction in Aurora. Their planets could spawn pirate ships and small fleets with the intent to board and capture civilian ships.

These small pirate fleets could also spawn small pirate bases in system they operate with some ground defences and acting as pirate nests etc...

I love this idea. Fits the Ork-like theme. Fleets of Kill kroozers and fighta-bommers

[nuclearslurpee]

I think that Rakhas could eventually be used as a neutral pirate faction in Aurora. Their planets could spawn pirate ships and small fleets with the intent to board and capture civilian ships.

These small pirate fleets could also spawn small pirate bases in system they operate with some ground defences and acting as pirate nests etc...

I love this idea. Fits the Ork-like theme. Fleets of Kill kroozers and fighta-bommers

I suppose the big question is what separates these from Precursors aside from flavor? It's pretty rare I think for a player who knows what they're doing to send a civilian flotilla into an unsecured system, which means most likely these "pirates" would just blow up a survey ship and then be fodder for a battle fleet. Unless they start exploring and jumping into other systems looking for targets in which case they're not terribly distinct from the other spoiler NPRs unless Steve puts a ton of work into crafting a new AI that actually plays like a pirate faction.

I suspect it will probably be easier to implement pirates as a separate spoiler race which spawns ships in "deep space" away from any bodies or orbits and has massive (racial secret tech?) passive sensors to detect large commercial engine signatures entering the system. "Large" being important here because otherwise they'll just attack the first survey ship to jump in.

[Steve Walmsley]

I've considered pirates for a long time but giving them an economic rationale that fits within the game is tricky. It would be difficult for them to establish a base and create all the support needed (fuel, minerals, etc.) and it would relatively easy to find and destroy them due to jump point choke points.

However, with my recent focus on WH40k I have been giving some thought to a spoiler race along the lines of the Dark Eldar. In WH40k, they use the 'Webway', which is an ancient network that exists outside real space, and live in a vast city that exists in the depths of the Webway. They raid real space to satisfy their lust for slaughter and to gather slaves.

In Aurora terms, that could be an alien race that lives in a different dimension on the far side of the Aether from our own dimension. They are capable of transiting through the Aether to raid our space. The rationale for that could be plunder, slaves, glory, etc. The benefit of this type of approach is that it address the twin problems of basing and choke points. They are based on the far side of the Aether and they can enter our dimension at different locations without using jump points. It still needs more thought, such as can they raid anywhere, or are there gateways that can be found and eliminated. Also, how quickly can they depart our dimension? Too fast and they would leave when attacked, so there needs to be some limitation on that ability.

In WH40k, the Dark Eldar ships are fast, stealthy and hard to target, but relatively weak in terms of armour and shields. They also use boarding tactics. That general style can be replicated in Aurora, using cloaks, high ECM, etc. with boosted engines and minimal armour. The intention would be to present a threat against commercial traffic, surveyors, etc. but not something that would threaten a major battle fleet. The 'pirates' would be primarily commerce raiders that would require outposts, patrols and escorts rather than fleet engagements.

[xenoscepter]

I've considered pirates for a long time but giving them an economic rationale that fits within the game is tricky. It would be difficult for them to establish a base and create all the support needed (fuel, minerals, etc.) and it would relatively easy to find and destroy them due to jump point choke points.

However, with my recent focus on WH40k I have been giving some thought to a spoiler race along the lines of the Dark Eldar. In WH40k, they use the 'Webway', which is an ancient network that exists outside real space, and live in a vast city that exists in the depths of the Webway. They raid real space to satisfy their lust for slaughter and to gather slaves.

In Aurora terms, that could be an alien race that lives in a different dimension on the far side of the Aether from our own dimension. They are capable of transiting through the Aether to raid our space. The rationale for that could be plunder, slaves, glory, etc. The benefit of this type of approach is that it address the twin problems of basing and choke points. They are based on the far side of the Aether and they can enter our dimension at different locations without using jump points. It still needs more thought, such as can they raid anywhere, or are there gateways that can be found and eliminated. Also, how quickly can they depart our dimension? Too fast and they would leave when attacked, so there needs to be some limitation on that ability.

In WH40k, the Dark Eldar ships are fast, stealthy and hard to target, but relatively weak in terms of armour and shields. They also use boarding tactics. That general style can be replicated in Aurora, using cloaks, high ECM, etc. with boosted engines and minimal armour. The intention would be to present a threat against commercial traffic, surveyors, etc. but not something that would threaten a major battle fleet. The 'pirates' would be primarily commerce raiders that would require outposts, patrols and escorts rather than fleet engagements.

 - So like Invaders, but spooky? I like it. In fact I like it more than the regular Invaders.

 - EDIT: I've thought about this one a lot too, but my ideas went totally in the opposite direction. I imagined a system where the "Pirates" functioned in a similar way to CMCs. They would, however, be NPRs with ships and such. Much like NPRs they would have flavors, i.e.; boarders who tried to steal warships, fighter based groups who preformed hit and runs against civilian shipping lines. Their populations would have only a tenth of the EM/TH sig of a normal Payer Race or NPR, they would have their own facilities... stuff like "Pirate Base" to churn out free MSP, fuel and the like. They would scale up too, as time went on, so that in particularly large empires they might even make bandit kingdoms of sorts. The idea would also be to have NPRs able to spawn in these "Pirates" and they would have their own factions and diplomacy to act between them based on the existing NPR systems. I'll elaborate on this more in a different post for anyone who wants to read it, for now I have far more pressing concerns... pancakes!

[nuclearslurpee]

I've considered pirates for a long time but giving them an economic rationale that fits within the game is tricky. It would be difficult for them to establish a base and create all the support needed (fuel, minerals, etc.) and it would relatively easy to find and destroy them due to jump point choke points.

However, with my recent focus on WH40k I have been giving some thought to a spoiler race along the lines of the Dark Eldar. In WH40k, they use the 'Webway', which is an ancient network that exists outside real space, and live in a vast city that exists in the depths of the Webway. They raid real space to satisfy their lust for slaughter and to gather slaves.

In Aurora terms, that could be an alien race that lives in a different dimension on the far side of the Aether from our own dimension. They are capable of transiting through the Aether to raid our space. The rationale for that could be plunder, slaves, glory, etc. The benefit of this type of approach is that it address the twin problems of basing and choke points. They are based on the far side of the Aether and they can enter our dimension at different locations without using jump points. It still needs more thought, such as can they raid anywhere, or are there gateways that can be found and eliminated. Also, how quickly can they depart our dimension? Too fast and they would leave when attacked, so there needs to be some limitation on that ability.

In WH40k, the Dark Eldar ships are fast, stealthy and hard to target, but relatively weak in terms of armour and shields. They also use boarding tactics. That general style can be replicated in Aurora, using cloaks, high ECM, etc. with boosted engines and minimal armour. The intention would be to present a threat against commercial traffic, surveyors, etc. but not something that would threaten a major battle fleet. The 'pirates' would be primarily commerce raiders that would require outposts, patrols and escorts rather than fleet engagements.

This sounds very cool, and I like the idea of having them as a spoiler race not just called "pirates" since that leaves the door open for player-managed "pirate" factions in RP games as well. Anything that incentivizes rear area patrols has my vote.

Mechanically I don't know if there needs to be a limitation on their ability to depart our dimension if they use a fixed-point gateway to enter. They would still have to fly away from their entry point to carry out their raids, and flee back once they feel they are outmatched or beaten back which offers the choice of either running them off with a heavier patrol fleet or trying to chase them down before they escape.

It would also be neat if capturing their ships would let the player use the Webway analogue to travel to/raid other systems without needing the JP network. Might be blatantly OP, but might also be balanced by the restriction to spoiler-designed ships only - no transiting an entire battle fleet into the NPR home world, just a couple of small raiders.

[kingflute]

Perhaps the raiders/corsairs can only enter or exit real-space outside of a predetermined (perhaps a function of the body's gravity) distance from a stellar body. This would give the player a small period of time to detect and respond to a raid before it occurs or stop it from making off with its gains. This would, in my opinion, allow for a system garrison fleet to sit in an anchorage, but would also require light patrols (a couple of destroyers/frigates/light cruisers) throughout the system to detect the raiders, whilst not forcing the player to burn through vast amounts of fuel or material garrisoning or patrolling every colony with a battle-fleet or division.

[Veneke]

Would this new pirate/dark eldar spoiler race have an impact on PPV? The PPV system always struck me as a way to try and ensure that populations weren't left unrealistically undefended and essentially abstracted out things like pirates / regular internal space patrols etc. If there's a mechanic being introduced which manifests that abstraction, at least in part, it might be worth revisiting PPV at the same time?

[Kristover]

I would really like to see the addition of a 'pirate' race which compels me to build light forces and keep them in the rear areas.  A couple of thoughts:

1. I think this has to be distinct from other spoilers in that they mostly operate as smaller formations.  Their base ships are smaller, incredibly fast, stealthy, with great ECM capability.  For weapons, perhaps they should be a microwave and boarding heavy force whose aim is to capture rather destroy ships.  I agree that they shouldn't be able to stand up to a major battlefleet but I think individually or as a wolf-pack they should be incredibly dangerous - a single destroyer or light cruiser could be destroyed/taken.  You'll need a small squadron to handle these guys.

2. I think this should somehow be tied to PPV values - if you fall below a certain level of PPV (75% of required in a system), than it could potentially trigger a visit from these pirates.  I don't think it should be automatic thing but rather every 10 years or so +/- random modifier there is a auto-check and then the pirate fleets show up.  This would great 'pirate waves' for us RP/story types 'Hey, remember the Pirate storm of 2456?  These guys showed up wrecked a couple of systems and then vanished.'

3. I like the idea of a special 'pirate' only gateway that opens for a limited duration and all prizes get sent back through the gateway with more raiders coming out.  Closing these gateways depends on PPV value - if you get the PPV back up over 100%, then there is escalating chance by month of the gateway eventually closing.

4. One interesting variable is that there is a special trigger that happens - perhaps every so often when a gateway appears (If the gateway stays in existence for 5 years +/- modifier), out comes a huge fleet intent on capturing a colony for enslavement.  This fleet makes a bee-line for the closest colony and lands on the planet and initiates a ground campaign to take it over an enslave the population.  If it manages to take over the colony, then this new system ends up becoming a pirate haven.

Just a couple of ideas for this.   

[StarshipCactus]

That sounds awesome Steve!

One thing I thought of, if these fellows want slaves, why not have them attack unguarded planets with ground troops and colony ships so they can carry off your population back to their cities? The counter is to have more than a certain quantity of troops per unit of population, or have space ships guarding the planet. For example, if there is several hundred thousand tons worth of ground troops on a small colony with just over a millions population, it is not worth the effort, but if there is a few hundred thousand tons of troops on a world with two billion population, then it is worth overcoming the ground forces to start enslaving your population.

[nuclearslurpee]

2. I think this should somehow be tied to PPV values - if you fall below a certain level of PPV (75% of required in a system), than it could potentially trigger a visit from these pirates.  I don't think it should be automatic thing but rather every 10 years or so +/- random modifier there is a auto-check and then the pirate fleets show up.  This would great 'pirate waves' for us RP/story types 'Hey, remember the Pirate storm of 2456?  These guys showed up wrecked a couple of systems and then vanished.'

3. I like the idea of a special 'pirate' only gateway that opens for a limited duration and all prizes get sent back through the gateway with more raiders coming out.  Closing these gateways depends on PPV value - if you get the PPV back up over 100%, then there is escalating chance by month of the gateway eventually closing.

I don't think PPV needs to be brought into the discussion. It works fine as it is since it supposed to model the need a population in a system feels for protection by your glorious space navy. All pirates are doing is giving PPV in your rear areas (not threatened by any other NPR or spoiler, barring a dormant JP) a rationale.

Tying the appearance of pirates to PPV also strikes me as poor gameplay because it turns what should be a fun spoiler race into something you only see if you play the game badly, i.e., don't properly garrison your systems. A spoiler race should be something you encounter while playing the game fairly well - all of the other spoiler races are encountered due to exploration which is a core game mechanic you would never not do barring RP reasons or start-of-game turtling in Sol.

It would also take away what is currently a viable strategic game decision, as currently players can choose to address PPV with ships or with large enough ground force garrisons. Tying pirate appearance to PPV basically makes the ground forces approach useless and eliminates a small bit of decision-making from the game.

[Malorn]

I've considered pirates for a long time but giving them an economic rationale that fits within the game is tricky. It would be difficult for them to establish a base and create all the support needed (fuel, minerals, etc.) and it would relatively easy to find and destroy them due to jump point choke points.

However, with my recent focus on WH40k I have been giving some thought to a spoiler race along the lines of the Dark Eldar. In WH40k, they use the 'Webway', which is an ancient network that exists outside real space, and live in a vast city that exists in the depths of the Webway. They raid real space to satisfy their lust for slaughter and to gather slaves.

In Aurora terms, that could be an alien race that lives in a different dimension on the far side of the Aether from our own dimension. They are capable of transiting through the Aether to raid our space. The rationale for that could be plunder, slaves, glory, etc. The benefit of this type of approach is that it address the twin problems of basing and choke points. They are based on the far side of the Aether and they can enter our dimension at different locations without using jump points. It still needs more thought, such as can they raid anywhere, or are there gateways that can be found and eliminated. Also, how quickly can they depart our dimension? Too fast and they would leave when attacked, so there needs to be some limitation on that ability.

In WH40k, the Dark Eldar ships are fast, stealthy and hard to target, but relatively weak in terms of armour and shields. They also use boarding tactics. That general style can be replicated in Aurora, using cloaks, high ECM, etc. with boosted engines and minimal armour. The intention would be to present a threat against commercial traffic, surveyors, etc. but not something that would threaten a major battle fleet. The 'pirates' would be primarily commerce raiders that would require outposts, patrols and escorts rather than fleet engagements.

That sounds really fun, and would really flesh out the game in some solid ways, requiring you to pay attention to 'back line' systems to a certain extent, while also making it harder to ignore military via careful expansion and turtling.

I would suggest it be something that cannot ever be 'beaten', making it a constant threat. At the same time, you want it to get 'worse' if ignored, and let it feel like a worthwhile thing to actually kill. Perhaps something like a point buy system for their fleet and invasions? They 'buy' ships with points they gain at a steady rate, and those ships never actually go away unless killed. That way if you don't kill enemy ships and they escape they will have more ships in the future. Ignored long enough, they might actually become a serious threat to real fleets, with a cap of course.

This would mean that every ship killed represented the destruction of a real asset, and thus would have future impact, but still would mean that eventually the pirates would build back up again and become a threat.

[Kristover]

2. I think this should somehow be tied to PPV values - if you fall below a certain level of PPV (75% of required in a system), than it could potentially trigger a visit from these pirates.  I don't think it should be automatic thing but rather every 10 years or so +/- random modifier there is a auto-check and then the pirate fleets show up.  This would great 'pirate waves' for us RP/story types 'Hey, remember the Pirate storm of 2456?  These guys showed up wrecked a couple of systems and then vanished.'

3. I like the idea of a special 'pirate' only gateway that opens for a limited duration and all prizes get sent back through the gateway with more raiders coming out.  Closing these gateways depends on PPV value - if you get the PPV back up over 100%, then there is escalating chance by month of the gateway eventually closing.

I don't think PPV needs to be brought into the discussion. It works fine as it is since it supposed to model the need a population in a system feels for protection by your glorious space navy. All pirates are doing is giving PPV in your rear areas (not threatened by any other NPR or spoiler, barring a dormant JP) a rationale.

Tying the appearance of pirates to PPV also strikes me as poor gameplay because it turns what should be a fun spoiler race into something you only see if you play the game badly, i.e., don't properly garrison your systems. A spoiler race should be something you encounter while playing the game fairly well - all of the other spoiler races are encountered due to exploration which is a core game mechanic you would never not do barring RP reasons or start-of-game turtling in Sol.

It would also take away what is currently a viable strategic game decision, as currently players can choose to address PPV with ships or with large enough ground force garrisons. Tying pirate appearance to PPV basically makes the ground forces approach useless and eliminates a small bit of decision-making from the game.

I disagree.  I don't think it takes away from gameplay at all and sometimes imposing a consequence for 'bad' gameplay makes for an interesting situation.  If I choose to expand irresponsibly and not guard/garrison my colonies, didn't make enough ships and array my forces correctly, or simply became inattentive, than this would occur.  I think good gameplay presents choices and dilemmas for players.  Just judging from my own playstyle and experiences, I think this actually creates those sorts of decisions in systems away from the 'frontlines'.

[Erik L]

I've considered pirates for a long time but giving them an economic rationale that fits within the game is tricky. It would be difficult for them to establish a base and create all the support needed (fuel, minerals, etc.) and it would relatively easy to find and destroy them due to jump point choke points.

However, with my recent focus on WH40k I have been giving some thought to a spoiler race along the lines of the Dark Eldar. In WH40k, they use the 'Webway', which is an ancient network that exists outside real space, and live in a vast city that exists in the depths of the Webway. They raid real space to satisfy their lust for slaughter and to gather slaves.

In Aurora terms, that could be an alien race that lives in a different dimension on the far side of the Aether from our own dimension. They are capable of transiting through the Aether to raid our space. The rationale for that could be plunder, slaves, glory, etc. The benefit of this type of approach is that it address the twin problems of basing and choke points. They are based on the far side of the Aether and they can enter our dimension at different locations without using jump points. It still needs more thought, such as can they raid anywhere, or are there gateways that can be found and eliminated. Also, how quickly can they depart our dimension? Too fast and they would leave when attacked, so there needs to be some limitation on that ability.

In WH40k, the Dark Eldar ships are fast, stealthy and hard to target, but relatively weak in terms of armour and shields. They also use boarding tactics. That general style can be replicated in Aurora, using cloaks, high ECM, etc. with boosted engines and minimal armour. The intention would be to present a threat against commercial traffic, surveyors, etc. but not something that would threaten a major battle fleet. The 'pirates' would be primarily commerce raiders that would require outposts, patrols and escorts rather than fleet engagements.

You could tie it to their size. The larger the size, the longer it takes them to be able to retreat. Or maybe a certain distance from the primary. Or both

[nuclearslurpee]

I disagree.  I don't think it takes away from gameplay at all and sometimes imposing a consequence for 'bad' gameplay makes for an interesting situation.  If I choose to expand irresponsibly and not guard/garrison my colonies, didn't make enough ships and array my forces correctly, or simply became inattentive, than this would occur.  I think good gameplay presents choices and dilemmas for players.  Just judging from my own playstyle and experiences, I think this actually creates those sorts of decisions in systems away from the 'frontlines'.

To be clear, my issue isn't having the pirate mechanic punish bad play, frankly I think it does that anyways. My point is that I want to see pirates regardless of how well I play, and then suffer or benefit accordingly - if my garrison is insufficient, I get hammered, but if my garrison is adequate I get to blow something up and loot the bodies, hip hip hooray. Locking a spoiler race behind PPV so that they only appear if I'm playing badly rather defeats the point of a spoiler race and frankly isn't nearly as fun (or as RP-friendly, as it's a bit awkward to justify a large patrol force if they never get to fight anything...).

Let's keep PPV as it is, simply reflecting how protected a population needs to be to "feel safe", and simply allow pirates to be an in-universe justification for that mechanic.