Pirates

[idefelipe]

I have started a new playthrough and will try to SM a new Pirate faction using the homerules you posted. Yeah, it will take me ages to micromanage it, but as I am not in a rush I will not care about that.

In this playthrough I am playing slowly, tasting the RP elements like characters, names, development of the colonies, etc. In almost 8 hours I have advanced just 11 years because I am creating somekind of a chronicle and it takes time, but gives a LOT of fun. Specially because I don't play in Sol System, but a new created for this.

So including Pirates using the SM and micromanaging them is something affordable in this save. Will test it and report my advances (although we are still in a very early age and the race barely has started to explore the system.

Thanks a bunch for sharing your ideas. I really would love to see this in the game, will give a new level of realism and fun for the first stages.

Please let us know how it goes, it'll be an interesting experiment to see play out.

I have not forgotten about this. As said I'm playing the game slow and only 27 years has passed since the beginning. I have found a couple of systems suitable for minning colonies and one of the spoilers has a small base in other system next to mine. The Navy has been built at lightspeed so the pirates in my will have a very hard life, hahaha. Will keep you updated when I finally "start" with them.

[kingflute]

Let's keep PPV as it is, simply reflecting how protected a population needs to be to "feel safe", and simply allow pirates to be an in-universe justification for that mechanic.

I've always viewed PPV as the requirements for a gendarme or coast guard force rather than anything else

[Veneke]

Let's keep PPV as it is, simply reflecting how protected a population needs to be to "feel safe", and simply allow pirates to be an in-universe justification for that mechanic.

I've always viewed PPV as the requirements for a gendarme or coast guard force rather than anything else

That's broadly my understanding of PPV as well. it's to ensure that the player devotes resources to system / population defences beyond the front line. The current abstraction of that just results in ground forces / ships being permanently stationed with no further consideration of effectiveness or engagement from the player beyond meeting the PPV value. But these dark eldar/pirates would present a threat that would require active system defences, and probably warrant designing effective patrol ships rather than platforms with guns. That seems a much more interesting / engaging mechanic that does what PPV purports to do.
 
Whatever about an overhaul of PPV, it would make sense for the PPV requirement to go up if commercial ships are lost to raiding - or maybe just a direct modifier to Unrest? Unless the raids were exceptionally frequent, or started targeting installations (fuel harvesters, mining ships etc) there's a risk of the new spoiler race being ignored as an annoyance that kills some commercial craft from time to time. That would be a shame because the concept is quite cool.

[Nori]

I've considered pirates for a long time but giving them an economic rationale that fits within the game is tricky. It would be difficult for them to establish a base and create all the support needed (fuel, minerals, etc.) and it would relatively easy to find and destroy them due to jump point choke points.

However, with my recent focus on WH40k I have been giving some thought to a spoiler race along the lines of the Dark Eldar. In WH40k, they use the 'Webway', which is an ancient network that exists outside real space, and live in a vast city that exists in the depths of the Webway. They raid real space to satisfy their lust for slaughter and to gather slaves.

In Aurora terms, that could be an alien race that lives in a different dimension on the far side of the Aether from our own dimension. They are capable of transiting through the Aether to raid our space. The rationale for that could be plunder, slaves, glory, etc. The benefit of this type of approach is that it address the twin problems of basing and choke points. They are based on the far side of the Aether and they can enter our dimension at different locations without using jump points. It still needs more thought, such as can they raid anywhere, or are there gateways that can be found and eliminated. Also, how quickly can they depart our dimension? Too fast and they would leave when attacked, so there needs to be some limitation on that ability.

In WH40k, the Dark Eldar ships are fast, stealthy and hard to target, but relatively weak in terms of armour and shields. They also use boarding tactics. That general style can be replicated in Aurora, using cloaks, high ECM, etc. with boosted engines and minimal armour. The intention would be to present a threat against commercial traffic, surveyors, etc. but not something that would threaten a major battle fleet. The 'pirates' would be primarily commerce raiders that would require outposts, patrols and escorts rather than fleet engagements.

This sounds cool and fun. Some of my favorite times in Aurora are when the NPR/spoilers push me. I fondly remember this game where my starting system was invaded by a NPR and I worked hard to fight them off, but ended up losing in the end. Unfortunately that type of experience isn't common in all the games I've played. I'd love to see more pressure from the AI.

[Borealis4x (OP)]

I've considered pirates for a long time but giving them an economic rationale that fits within the game is tricky. It would be difficult for them to establish a base and create all the support needed (fuel, minerals, etc.) and it would relatively easy to find and destroy them due to jump point choke points.

However, with my recent focus on WH40k I have been giving some thought to a spoiler race along the lines of the Dark Eldar. In WH40k, they use the 'Webway', which is an ancient network that exists outside real space, and live in a vast city that exists in the depths of the Webway. They raid real space to satisfy their lust for slaughter and to gather slaves.

In Aurora terms, that could be an alien race that lives in a different dimension on the far side of the Aether from our own dimension. They are capable of transiting through the Aether to raid our space. The rationale for that could be plunder, slaves, glory, etc. The benefit of this type of approach is that it address the twin problems of basing and choke points. They are based on the far side of the Aether and they can enter our dimension at different locations without using jump points. It still needs more thought, such as can they raid anywhere, or are there gateways that can be found and eliminated. Also, how quickly can they depart our dimension? Too fast and they would leave when attacked, so there needs to be some limitation on that ability.

In WH40k, the Dark Eldar ships are fast, stealthy and hard to target, but relatively weak in terms of armour and shields. They also use boarding tactics. That general style can be replicated in Aurora, using cloaks, high ECM, etc. with boosted engines and minimal armour. The intention would be to present a threat against commercial traffic, surveyors, etc. but not something that would threaten a major battle fleet. The 'pirates' would be primarily commerce raiders that would require outposts, patrols and escorts rather than fleet engagements.

Interdimensional Space Raiders are a very unique idea, and you know what can and cannot be done with the game more than me.

I certainly wouldn't sneeze at their inclusion, but what interests me most about pirates is how they are born out of your Empire and policies instead of being another 'outside' predetermined threat. If pirates spawn and become a problem, it should be as a direct result of how you've developed (or failed to develop) your empire.

It gives them more of a connection with your species and makes 'no-alien' games more fun. Another thing I like about pirates is that they don't have to strictly be 'pirate' pirates, but rather any type of group from your empire that is openly hostile to it for one reason or another and raids to keep afloat. They could be terrorists, freedom-fighters, shady corporations, or just straight up pirates. Its up to the player to decide their motivations.

Of course if you don't think its worth the effort to go down that route, you know best. I just tend to see pirates more of an internal problem than an external one.


I'd still love to see Interdimensional Space Raiders either way, perhaps as 'advanced' pirates using the same aggressive boarding tactics but being on par if not more advanced than your ships. I wouldn't want to see them right away tho.

[nuclearslurpee]

Interdimensional Space Raiders are a very unique idea, and you know what can and cannot be done with the game more than me.

I certainly wouldn't sneeze at their inclusion, but what interests me most about pirates is how they are born out of your Empire and policies instead of being another 'outside' predetermined threat. If pirates spawn and become a problem, it should be as a direct result of how you've developed (or failed to develop) your empire.

It gives them more of a connection with your species and makes 'no-alien' games more fun. Another thing I like about pirates is that they don't have to strictly be 'pirate' pirates, but rather any type of group from your empire that is openly hostile to it for one reason or another and raids to keep afloat. They could be terrorists, freedom-fighters, shady corporations, or just straight up pirates. Its up to the player to decide their motivations.

Of course if you don't think its worth the effort to go down that route, you know best. I just tend to see pirates more of an internal problem than an external one.


I'd still love to see Interdimensional Space Raiders either way, perhaps as 'advanced' pirates using the same aggressive boarding tactics but being on par if not more advanced than your ships. I wouldn't want to see them right away tho.

I can certainly see the appeal of something like that. However, even aside from the work that would be involved adding a more detailed internal political system to Aurora, I don't think this style of "spoiler" NPR would fit Aurora very well. Another game, maybe, but not Aurora.

Let me explain my thought process: Every other NPR, including spoilers, in Aurora is encountered by just playing the game as usual, most commonly NPRs including all spoilers will be encountered through exploring the galaxy which is a core element of gameplay. What Steve has outlined is a departure from convention somewhat in that the interdimensional space raiders would appear in colonized systems rather than when a new system is explored, but it still fits the same concept as the others - you encounter them while playing the game as usual and have to deal with them as they appear.

Tying a "pirate" spoiler, however you flavor it, to the player's actual gameplay and empire management changes that concept, particularly if they only appear as a response to the player playing "badly" in some way. If I tick the box to Spawn Pirates in the new game setup window, it's because I want to fight some space pirates. Forcing the player to play "badly" to encounter a spoiler race strikes me as poor game design.

Note that "badly" doesn't have to be actual bad gameplay. For example, if space pirates are freedom fighters who only appear if you oppress a conquered species too heavily (say as a reaction to the forced labor camps mechanic), then "playing badly" would mean abusing the forced labor camps. In my mind this doesn't solve the problem, only changes the colors - if I want to fight space pirates, that should not have to be tied to me making a particular gameplay choice beyond "explore" and "colonize", which I would do anyways because that's the basic gameplay. If I want to RP as a benevolent colonizer instead of a slaving overlord, I should be able to do that and fight space pirates because I checked that box regardless of my gameplay decisions.

Again, it's not a bad concept by itself and would work in other games, but I don't feel like it matches the spirit of Aurora's game design specifically.

[Garfunkel]

I agree with nuclearslurpee here. The sort of 'pirates' you describe, Borealis4x, would absolutely require a complete overhaul of the political system and introduction probably several new features. The current political system is as barebones as can be which allows a lot of roleplaying as different factions but does not support advanced mechanics. Even if such mechanics were added, there is a big risk where the system becomes pointless busywork, ie do X per Y colony and that takes care of it.

For an example, players really wanted the AI to commit more invasions in Hearts of Iron 3 as the AI almost never did them in the first two games. Paradox complied but because the AI in general, and especially on strategic level, is piss poor, the outcome was just pointless busywork for the player. Let's say you play as Germany - you need to garrison every port province with a single division as otherwise the AI will send 2-3 division invasion force in it, regardless of the fact that you have 10 Panzer divisions nearby. So both UK and US would bleed themselves dry repeatedly invading through tiny ports (thus not getting enough supplies through) and getting slaughtered to the point that the player could just march into London and Washington without any resistance. So if you wanted to have any hope of resistance when invading Britain and North-America, you HAD TO garrison every port from White Sea to Bay of Biscay or the AI would suicide.

We already have PPV and unrest. While I'd like to see colonies becoming independent if unrest becomes too high, I don't think adding a spawning piracy faction out of your empire adds anything if the counter to it is just keeping PPV demands met. And a better system would need Steve to add in some modelling of population groups and politics like in Stellar, and I don't think he has interest for that and it would be a lot of work.

[Borealis4x (OP)]

Interdimensional Space Raiders are a very unique idea, and you know what can and cannot be done with the game more than me.

I certainly wouldn't sneeze at their inclusion, but what interests me most about pirates is how they are born out of your Empire and policies instead of being another 'outside' predetermined threat. If pirates spawn and become a problem, it should be as a direct result of how you've developed (or failed to develop) your empire.

It gives them more of a connection with your species and makes 'no-alien' games more fun. Another thing I like about pirates is that they don't have to strictly be 'pirate' pirates, but rather any type of group from your empire that is openly hostile to it for one reason or another and raids to keep afloat. They could be terrorists, freedom-fighters, shady corporations, or just straight up pirates. Its up to the player to decide their motivations.

Of course if you don't think its worth the effort to go down that route, you know best. I just tend to see pirates more of an internal problem than an external one.


I'd still love to see Interdimensional Space Raiders either way, perhaps as 'advanced' pirates using the same aggressive boarding tactics but being on par if not more advanced than your ships. I wouldn't want to see them right away tho.

I can certainly see the appeal of something like that. However, even aside from the work that would be involved adding a more detailed internal political system to Aurora, I don't think this style of "spoiler" NPR would fit Aurora very well. Another game, maybe, but not Aurora.

Let me explain my thought process: Every other NPR, including spoilers, in Aurora is encountered by just playing the game as usual, most commonly NPRs including all spoilers will be encountered through exploring the galaxy which is a core element of gameplay. What Steve has outlined is a departure from convention somewhat in that the interdimensional space raiders would appear in colonized systems rather than when a new system is explored, but it still fits the same concept as the others - you encounter them while playing the game as usual and have to deal with them as they appear.

Tying a "pirate" spoiler, however you flavor it, to the player's actual gameplay and empire management changes that concept, particularly if they only appear as a response to the player playing "badly" in some way. If I tick the box to Spawn Pirates in the new game setup window, it's because I want to fight some space pirates. Forcing the player to play "badly" to encounter a spoiler race strikes me as poor game design.

Note that "badly" doesn't have to be actual bad gameplay. For example, if space pirates are freedom fighters who only appear if you oppress a conquered species too heavily (say as a reaction to the forced labor camps mechanic), then "playing badly" would mean abusing the forced labor camps. In my mind this doesn't solve the problem, only changes the colors - if I want to fight space pirates, that should not have to be tied to me making a particular gameplay choice beyond "explore" and "colonize", which I would do anyways because that's the basic gameplay. If I want to RP as a benevolent colonizer instead of a slaving overlord, I should be able to do that and fight space pirates because I checked that box regardless of my gameplay decisions.

Again, it's not a bad concept by itself and would work in other games, but I don't feel like it matches the spirit of Aurora's game design specifically.

I think that the way I conceptualized Pirates being spawned doesn't result from you playing 'badly' so much as it does playing 'well' actually and giving proper priority to empire devlopment. The way I envisioned it, pirates would spawn on otherwise useless rocks that were out of the range of any type of sensors and in systems with enough civilian traffic to make it worthwhile. You are unlikely to be in a situation where none of those criteria can be met, unless you are a lot more patient than me and make sure every possible body in every 'connected' system has sensor coverage. Perhaps you do that with a few important systems, but would you really commit to covering all of them? Is it worth the expense to make sure absolutely no pirates ever spawn in your empire when they can be dealt with relatively easily?

If you can, then good for you, its probably the endgame and you have nothing else to spend resources or time on so you might as well start a new game. If not, then its not because you are 'playing badly' its because you are prioritizing other things while expanding at a steady clip, which to me is 'playing well'. Why cover every inch of your empire with expensive sensors when a small squadron of last-gen corvettes would do and can go anywhere they are needed?

[nuclearslurpee]

I think that the way I conceptualized Pirates being spawned doesn't result from you playing 'badly' so much as it does playing 'well' actually and giving proper priority to empire devlopment.

I tried to clarify, but "playing badly" doesn't have to mean actual poor gameplay. I'm referencing this statement:

I certainly wouldn't sneeze at their inclusion, but what interests me most about pirates is how they are born out of your Empire and policies instead of being another 'outside' predetermined threat. If pirates spawn and become a problem, it should be as a direct result of how you've developed (or failed to develop) your empire.

In this context, "playing badly" means playing in a way that has motivated whatever pirate faction to emerge - terrorists, rebels, corporate breakways, what have you. Basically, "badly" from the perspective of the piratical faction.

My issue is that having a spoiler faction which only occurs as a response to specific policies (however those are effected in gameplay terms) is at odds with the way spoilers work in Aurora, such that I don't think that brand of spoiler faction really fits into the game. It's not a bad idea, and in another game built around that kind of mechanic it would work quite well, just not in Aurora. In Aurora, if I check the "Spawn Pirates" button, I want to see pirates regardless of anything else I do, plain and simple, same as for every other spoiler.

[Borealis4x (OP)]

I think that the way I conceptualized Pirates being spawned doesn't result from you playing 'badly' so much as it does playing 'well' actually and giving proper priority to empire devlopment.

I tried to clarify, but "playing badly" doesn't have to mean actual poor gameplay. I'm referencing this statement:

I certainly wouldn't sneeze at their inclusion, but what interests me most about pirates is how they are born out of your Empire and policies instead of being another 'outside' predetermined threat. If pirates spawn and become a problem, it should be as a direct result of how you've developed (or failed to develop) your empire.

In this context, "playing badly" means playing in a way that has motivated whatever pirate faction to emerge - terrorists, rebels, corporate breakways, what have you. Basically, "badly" from the perspective of the piratical faction.

My issue is that having a spoiler faction which only occurs as a response to specific policies (however those are effected in gameplay terms) is at odds with the way spoilers work in Aurora, such that I don't think that brand of spoiler faction really fits into the game. It's not a bad idea, and in another game built around that kind of mechanic it would work quite well, just not in Aurora. In Aurora, if I check the "Spawn Pirates" button, I want to see pirates regardless of anything else I do, plain and simple, same as for every other spoiler.

When I said the player could imagine pirates being any sort of threat they wanted, I meant from a strictly RP perspective. Sorry that wasn't clear.

The only criteria for pirates to spawn would be as I outlined above; worthless rock, no sensor coverage, healthy amount of civilian traffic.

I do not want to add a whole new political layer to Aurora just to make pirate spawns more in-depth. The player can imagine for themselves why pirates are spawning and what their goals are.

[Bremen]

I'm kind of sorry I missed this thread until now.

I've long had an idea for pirates based on the "Unbound" from The Last Angel series, or I guess the Reavers from Firefly are kind of a one system example. Basically a collection of outcasts, criminals, and remnants of destroyed/conquered races that don't have a permanent planetary home, instead wandering from system to system salvaging, looting, and attacking targets of opportunity. This isn't a perfect fit for Aurora, with its requirement for military ships to have maintenance, but I figure it's not too hard to imagine these races have an alternate design philosophy where they have military ships that are less efficient (IE slower/fewer guns/armor instead of shields) in return for being extremely low maintenance. Maybe that could even be a reward for dealing with them - chances to get an improved engineering space tech from the wreckage like you can/could get compressed fuel tanks from ruins.

The basic idea of how they'd work in Aurora would be every once and awhile a pirate fleet would appear from an unexplored jump point and wander around a bit looking for targets, including other systems. Their preferred target would be commercial ships or maybe undefended colonies, occasionally trying to take on very lightly defended stuff. Basically a reason to send a few escorts to keep an eye on your fuel harvesters, automated mining colonies, and such instead of leaving your whole fleet at the homeworld all the time, and a justification for why that colony in the middle of nowhere demands some defenses.

If they found a target they thought they could take they'd go for it with boarding parties/ground troops for colonies. In the case of ships, they'd fly away with them, on colonies they'd load up whatever they could in terms of minerals/installations/population and leave the rest, so it might not be a total loss. They'd then attempt to return to the unexplored jump point that spawned them before your forces could stop them, and if they did they'd despawn - the point being they don't actually have a permanent base to attack, they're just sort of the wandering mobs of space. This would both encourage spreading your fleet around - if you can hit them before they escape you can maybe grab your stuff back - and encourage actually exploring jump points before colonizing a system.

I picture their ships as kind of blurring the line between military and commercial - freighter like with light to moderate armor and a few light weapons. So slow and not a threat to a big fleet but possibly enough to overwhelm a lone destroyer or light planetary garrison, and the kind of ship that isn't practical with standard Aurora mechanics but makes sense if they could have military ships with commercial maintenance rules - basically freighters with a few guns bolted on if we imagine the rules allowed them to only need to maintain the guns.

[Malorn]

The idea of having them tied to unexplored jump points is brilliant.

It really helps with the meta of unexplored jump points being 'safe' in Aurora, which is very illogical from a common sense perspective.

Perhaps Steve could adapt that idea of unexplored jump points acting as 'gateways' for pirates even for his planned race, not in the sense of limiting them to only such jump points, but making unexplored points produce much larger fleets which might actually be dangerous.

[Black]

It seems that Steve already decided about the pirate faction per his post in 1.14.0 Changes:

I've also started adding a new spoiler race based on the comments I made in the 'Pirates' thread, so I don't want to release that half-finished because that could lead to unpredictable bugs.

But for local pirates originating from you empire, I agree with Bremen that ships similar to merchant raiders or Q-ships deployed in WW1 and WW2 would be most likely scenario. There must be civilian shipyards that construct civilian ships for shipping companies in your empire, so it would not be that surprising if there were some corrupt officials that would look other way, while one of the civilian ships would be equipped with some illegal components.

[Vasious]

The idea of having them tied to unexplored jump points is brilliant.

It really helps with the meta of unexplored jump points being 'safe' in Aurora, which is very illogical from a common sense perspective.

Perhaps Steve could adapt that idea of unexplored jump points acting as 'gateways' for pirates even for his planned race, not in the sense of limiting them to only such jump points, but making unexplored points produce much larger fleets which might actually be dangerous.

Perhaps something along the lines of the Pirates can only spawn in uncontrolled systems and identified but unexplored jump points.

So they could always be coming in from the unexplored board regions, and encourages the players to have outposts between colony worlds to "monitor and keep clear of threats"

[Malorn]

The idea of having them tied to unexplored jump points is brilliant.

It really helps with the meta of unexplored jump points being 'safe' in Aurora, which is very illogical from a common sense perspective.

Perhaps Steve could adapt that idea of unexplored jump points acting as 'gateways' for pirates even for his planned race, not in the sense of limiting them to only such jump points, but making unexplored points produce much larger fleets which might actually be dangerous.

Perhaps something along the lines of the Pirates can only spawn in uncontrolled systems and identified but unexplored jump points.

So they could always be coming in from the unexplored board regions, and encourages the players to have outposts between colony worlds to "monitor and keep clear of threats"

I wouldn't limit it to 'only' since that removes the whole point of pirates requiring you to defend your 'internal' areas. But I think that each unexplored jump point, discovered or not, should act like a multiplier on the frequency or strength of attacks. Then you have one system, which is logical, which serves both purposes.