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Posted by: Destragon
« on: November 25, 2022, 10:51:36 AM »

Sometimes he seems to be inspired by other channels, or maybe there is some third event that inspires many creators simultaneously. I noticed that when 3Blue1Brown recently came up with a great Fast Fourier Transform video, Vertasium had soon uploaded one too.(I still plan to watch that.)
He actualy talked about it in the comments of the Kurzgesagt video: "Great video on supernovae! Amazing that we were both working on the same topic at the same time. I hope everyone knows that these videos take months of lead time for both of us so there is no way one video was inspired by the other or vice versa."
Posted by: Vandermeer
« on: November 25, 2022, 10:24:11 AM »

Looks like coincidentally Veritasium has recently released a video about the same topic (although he seems to focus more on explaining how supernovae are caused):
Sometimes he seems to be inspired by other channels, or maybe there is some third event that inspires many creators simultaneously. I noticed that when 3Blue1Brown recently came up with a great Fast Fourier Transform video, Vertasium had soon uploaded one too.(I still plan to watch that.)

Once again we see the potentially fatal consequences when the physicists forget that radiation interaction with matter leads to a non-equilibrium system.   :P
Touché. Well, and that is why there is review, checks, and gradual development of ideas through quotation chains throughout many publications. As long as arguments happen, and no side or authority insists on being right, oversights will eventually be smoothed out.
Though in this case, that already happened long ago.
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: November 24, 2022, 09:40:38 PM »

Who is wrong?
Apparently nobody directly, because as it turns out the article only addressed the atmospheric shielding efficiency as related to the initial explosion and gamma blast (so about a month). It was not accounting however for:
- That the capacity of the atmosphere to absorb radiation wasn't infinite and could get exhausted.

Once again we see the potentially fatal consequences when the physicists forget that radiation interaction with matter leads to a non-equilibrium system.   :P
Posted by: Destragon
« on: November 24, 2022, 03:07:26 PM »

After a long time some relevant updates to this. The Kurzgesagt Youtube popular science channel just had a video on the deadliness of close Supernovae, and posed them as way more threatening as the previous article that Steve quoted would let you conclude.
Video here:
Looks like coincidentally Veritasium has recently released a video about the same topic (although he seems to focus more on explaining how supernovae are caused):
Posted by: Vandermeer
« on: November 24, 2022, 04:36:06 AM »

After a long time some relevant updates to this. The Kurzgesagt Youtube popular science channel just had a video on the deadliness of close Supernovae, and posed them as way more threatening as the previous article that Steve quoted would let you conclude.
Video here:

Now, the video is quite sensationalist in its visuals and speech, while it doesn't directly make clear what on every stage actually ends up killing life on the planet. Luckily, the team consists of actual scientists and puts credibility high and thus always provides a very thorough list of their sources, even relating them to the lines said in the video.(sometimes with relevant equations and results on spot)
So the video contrasts the previous findings of the article that let to conclusion that even if Alpha Centauri were to somehow explode, it wouldn't really affect us. Instead, Kurzgesagt states that deadly consequences begin at 150lys already. Who is wrong?
Apparently nobody directly, because as it turns out the article only addressed the atmospheric shielding efficiency as related to the initial explosion and gamma blast (so about a month). It was not accounting however for:
- That the capacity of the atmosphere to absorb radiation wasn't infinite and could get exhausted.
- A late wake 'radioactive tsunami' caused by the interstellar gas simultaneously being compress-pushed away and ionized, which will propagate further (but lower) radiation for unforeseeable timescales. (interestingly, the radiation from this will remain almost constant even with the wave approaching. Only if it should hit will there be a serious spike)
- The most important point: Secondary source damages relating to the stripping away of Ozone as this layers' capacity is among the first to be overwhelmed. (there are other consequences stemming from UV, but this is enough)

..And that is basically what the video boils down to. It is not the supernova radiation killing directly, so no dramatic "explosion kills" or 'zap-cancer'-radiation flashes, but it stripping thin Earth's shielding and thus exposure to solar UV and other cosmic radiation that ends up killing everything, ...but over some time.
Especially the sensationalist 25ly 'kill radius' from the video specifically relates to a much more tamely formulated article of USA National Academy of Sciences that simply calculates and mentions that the breakdown of Ozone at these intensities would persist for some hundreds of years, which would upend the base of the foodchain in plankton and thus cause total collapse and a mass extinction event.

So in conclusion: The supernovae are still not really killing through their own radiation directly, although they even might do that if they can overwhelm atmospheric capacity. (sadly I found no source in here that clearly stated at which levels that would happen for Earth) Instead, the most concerning effects are related to the destruction or even just partial suppression of the most vulnerable atmospheric layers.
..That however means that the final enemy in a near supernova event would actually be a planet's own star, not the supernova, and thus radiation damage should scale by the own star's parameters.

Anyway, that might all be too detailed to model in a game. In the end it does not matter who does the damage for simplification's sake. I would just say that lasting radiation doses, and even deadly supernovae are confirmed in the 150ly and 25ly range. It is no cool explosion, but I retract my previous joking of them being mere "christmas lights" as well.
Posted by: Kristover
« on: September 09, 2022, 07:47:08 AM »

I'm in favor of this mechanic as a potential non-spoiler game disruptor - I think if I enabled it, I wouldn't mind it being multi-system devastating (WPs 'transmit' supernova explosions causing multiple effects up and down the chain), but I would like it to only happen once and only after a certain time has elapsed.  I think something similar that would be interesting as a byproduct would be it causes WP disruption with points on the chain collapsing and new WPs opening....something that changes the mid to late game astrography.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: September 09, 2022, 04:14:24 AM »

I have had no issue accepting everything so far btw., and I am literally a physics graduate with a quarter of my specialization in astrophysics. Quite frankly, the higher scifi root standard actually drew me to Aurora; next to the immense sandbox factor of course.
Again, the 'supernova' only sticks out because there isn't a scifi justifier to it like with everything else. If it was an 'artificial supernova' or 'fluid bomb supernova' (maybe some better name could be found), or at least some justification existed in the background, there would again be no problem.

I think probably easiest if we just agree to disagree. This will be an optional mechanic so can just be ignored if it breaks suspension of disbelief
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: September 09, 2022, 04:12:00 AM »

If you can do this for a small number of stars, does this mean you could implement a method by which stars can get hotter/colder after the game start? So you could have a lesser form of this by copying the method the Sol disaster starts works, some fluff reason means the star around that new colony starts get hotter and hotter meaning it will be less habitable as a system?

It would make gameplay more dynamic in general while behind it all you can still have the very rare chance of things also just going bang

A variable star could do this.  Are there any variables in the near star list that is in the game? For non-real stars games then a % chance of a particular star being variable could bring some in.

Variable stars are are interesting, but would add another variable to colony cost, which might start to tax players ability to understand what is going on. An alternative that includes stars close to Sol is Flare Stars, which I have considered implementing in the past. I would implement solar flares in general with mechanics for impacts on ships and populations, but with very large flares in those systems. They would affect an arc of the system rather than all of it.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: September 09, 2022, 03:56:04 AM »

If you can do this for a small number of stars, does this mean you could implement a method by which stars can get hotter/colder after the game start? So you could have a lesser form of this by copying the method the Sol disaster starts works, some fluff reason means the star around that new colony starts get hotter and hotter meaning it will be less habitable as a system?

It would make gameplay more dynamic in general while behind it all you can still have the very rare chance of things also just going bang

Yes, I could extend the Sol Disaster scenarios to other system fairly easily.
Posted by: Vandermeer
« on: September 09, 2022, 01:57:51 AM »

I didn't take it personally - I was just explaining that for Aurora, gameplay is more important than 'realism', within the confines of internally consistent rules. Terraforming is a gross simplification, as is movement, mineral extraction, shipyards, weapon mechanics, etc.. Each one is a very complex subject that has been distilled down to something that has the same 'flavour', but with mechanics that allow interesting gameplay decisions.
The difference with all these are just that they are literally just simplifications. The industry related things don't actually break anything, and for the Terraforming you provided a proper scifi reason.(I think it was "summoning/translating gases out of the fluid space")
That is the thing that separates good and bad scifi. Under the pretense of extra-dimensions existing, -which, they might, although the leads have been getting worse and worse for years-, you can justify a lot of fantasy elements, like summoning the gases. It was good enough for me, and so was the fluid-mechanics movement through space justified by it.
I have done this often in the fiction I logged here. Whether it is constructor theory probability control, push-forward tunneling effect superluminosity(which actually exists), space expansion being lightspeed when looking closely, or the transnewtonian elements being exotic matter that grant anti-gravity, - the technique is to just have some new root principle discovery or invention by which the board of known science can be legally flipped over. :) (as long as you apply it)

That is one of the things I consider very good about Aurora, it is all on the good scifi site, and there is also effort to have some good data around, like all the detail lists on orbiting bodies.
Insisting that the average supernova is a deadly threat would as far as I can see become the first hard break, because this is simply untrue. It is not inventing something from the mist of the unknown, or suggesting that we might find ways to do things that we obviously don't know of yet (like reflecting gamma-lasers). It is 'very' falsely representing a natural phenomenon and thus revising known reality.
..At least as it is, but here is the thing; -just like with the fluid-mechanics movement-, you could for example simply cite the fiction that you legally created in the realms of the unknown (which is fluid space extra dimensions here), and use those to justify 1.why it is so deadly, and even 2.why it happens right here right now despite being so rare. All you have to do to justify all this is attach an explanation from the root of the legal scifi, which can be an alien race using fluid space technology to make the explosion like Mike2R suggested, or perhaps something like Star Trek did with the "our Warp travel destabilizes the subspace which causes rifts" thing, or maybe a star was primed as a fluid-space bomb in ancient times, etcetc. . As long as you make clear that these are no ordinary Supernovae, all hard science breaks could be avoided no problem.

Quote
You chose the example of the laser in your reply, but no one really thinks that Aurora lasers reflect reality - they just have the right flavour to represent them. You could call them something else and it would still fit the game and be internally consistent. The proposed supernova mechanics are the same. They create the impression of what everyone thinks of when they hear 'supernova' but with mechanics that work within the game. I am sure that for most Aurora mechanics there will be some players who find it hard to accept the simplifications, probably dependent on their own areas of expertise.
I have had no issue accepting everything so far btw., and I am literally a physics graduate with a quarter of my specialization in astrophysics. Quite frankly, the higher scifi root standard actually drew me to Aurora; next to the immense sandbox factor of course.
Again, the 'supernova' only sticks out because there isn't a scifi justifier to it like with everything else. If it was an 'artificial supernova' or 'fluid bomb supernova' (maybe some better name could be found), or at least some justification existed in the background, there would again be no problem.

The laser thing by the way was not aimed at Aurora. I was just trying to give an example of a hard science break that isn't acceptable in the boundary of 'good scifi', and an old show came to mind where they insisted they could store laser light in a mirrorbox, and then release it later to melt walls and stuff. That is just dumb, and stuff like this is usually done by directors who now neither of science nor fiction. I could never watch Andromeda for similar reasons for example, even as a kid.
Posted by: hyramgraff
« on: September 08, 2022, 11:13:17 PM »

Its been a long time since I read David Zindell's Neverness series, but this is giving me that sort of vibe.  Maybe it could be a new (or existing) spoiler race that is detonating stars for some inscrutable reason of their own.  It could be what the Swarm ultimately does if left unchecked - builds a fleet of star killers that surrounds a star, and when they have enough of them, sends themselves and anyone in the local area to the next life.

Fascinating idea. I hadn't considering some form of high tech alien intervention. That would make the invaders seem tame by comparison :)

There was something in Star Fleet Battles called a Sun Snake that caused stars to go nova.

Famous last words: With enough shielding we should be able to harvest Sorium from inside a star!  :D
Posted by: Laurence
« on: September 08, 2022, 02:38:24 PM »

If you can do this for a small number of stars, does this mean you could implement a method by which stars can get hotter/colder after the game start? So you could have a lesser form of this by copying the method the Sol disaster starts works, some fluff reason means the star around that new colony starts get hotter and hotter meaning it will be less habitable as a system?

It would make gameplay more dynamic in general while behind it all you can still have the very rare chance of things also just going bang

A variable star could do this.  Are there any variables in the near star list that is in the game? For non-real stars games then a % chance of a particular star being variable could bring some in.
Posted by: Rich.h
« on: September 08, 2022, 11:06:47 AM »

If you can do this for a small number of stars, does this mean you could implement a method by which stars can get hotter/colder after the game start? So you could have a lesser form of this by copying the method the Sol disaster starts works, some fluff reason means the star around that new colony starts get hotter and hotter meaning it will be less habitable as a system?

It would make gameplay more dynamic in general while behind it all you can still have the very rare chance of things also just going bang
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: September 08, 2022, 05:06:04 AM »

There was a book series Antares Dawn etc that featured this as a major plot element.
Antares explodes in a Supernova which has the effect of changing the structure of WP , due to the change in mass of the star. Some WP move, some dissapear and some new ones appear. Of the ones that appear or dissapear some of those vanish again when the front of the Supernova passes over the affected system

Yes, that book gave me the idea :)
Posted by: Andrew
« on: September 08, 2022, 04:28:07 AM »

There was a book series Antares Dawn etc that featured this as a major plot element.
Antares explodes in a Supernova which has the effect of changing the structure of WP , due to the change in mass of the star. Some WP move, some dissapear and some new ones appear. Of the ones that appear or dissapear some of those vanish again when the front of the Supernova passes over the affected system