Cold War Comments Thread

[Paul M]

Yeah...hell I've been where I am for more than six years now...I'm feeling ancient...

Well the no-shields thing the Drakes are big on, but even they got their limbs twisted to the point their assault ships carry passive defenses...just not as many as most assault ships do.  But they still sent their deep space ships through and that was...ouch!  Their assault cruisers charging the enemy SDs was also ouch!!!  But the only thing that saved that battle was me tossing 300 pods through the warp point but the damage to essentially every ship in the combined force meant no follow up battle...plus those were the pods intended for the next warp point.   But having 6 SDs decloak on me was "un-expected" to say the least.  Given the RM has also got cloak...I have to remember to install it on their next generation of bases as well...what I can't figure out is where the damned partial write up for it vanished too...maybe I need to look on my slaptop...

I see the Russkies have worked out that they can't ignore the RC...I wondered when that would happen and what they would do...as they have a commanding military presence in the Sol system.

[Kurt (OP)]

Yeah, SA brought back life to Starfire, in my view at least.  I also still think if other people had not got involved Marvin and Steve could have sorted the issues out.  But there was too much partisan influence...or at least that is certainly the way it looked to an outsider (me).  But SA is pretty much "gold standard" for campaign game support.  And amazingly Steve was willing to put stuff in it that he didn't use which made it wonderful for the rest of us.  One thing that SA allowed was long detailed campaigns, and those are the things that generate interest and attract new players or even drag older ones back.  4thE isn't bad, I like it, I like a lot of the changes and ideas in it, especially the tech system but it is so damned balanced it has no heartbeat to it.  Generic missile weapon type 1 and generic beam weapon type 3 and small craft do-dad type A aren't the same as SBM, E-beams, and Gunboats compared to CM, HETs and fighters.  I never get the feeling looking at the changes they made that you suddenly go "ooooh I just got (tech system) wow that is going to require me to have a think about how my ships are used/built!"

The Schism was a while back...you were knee high to a duck sorta thing must be 6+ years now.

We all know who you mean, especially those of us who were in 3DG.  But end of discussion for me there.
Pretty much sums up my opinion on SA and 4th too.

I still have lots of archived messages from the mailing list, good times

More like 10 years ago from the dates on my files.  Feeling old yet?  I am 

Stephen

Longer even than that, I think.  Oh, man, I just looked at some of my old emails.  The final split was early 2005, so fifteen years ago.  Ouch. 

So for you, Warer, you were a toddler at the time.  Ugh, now I do feel old. 

Kurt

I can`t even remember where my family was living at that time so i feel young, thanks for that  . Also reading the Terran Campaign and have reached the Battle of Khalia, all i have to say is that you make the best aliens. https://www.starfiredesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=586

“Clan Lord, the prey have stopped dead in space, and are attempting communications. Their fleet consists of 6 strength 15 vessels, with 6 strength 3 escorting vessels.” The sensor officer hesitated as he studied his instruments, then straightened and said with the utmost disdain, “Sir, they have.... Shields!”

Thruckun bared his fangs in a grimace. “Truly, they are prey to cower behind...defenses. Communications, Fleet orders. All ships are to accelerate to maximum speed and attack. Battleships will remain at long range and engage with missiles, all other ships will close and attack. For the honor of Torkal. FOR THE UNIVERSE!”

EDIT Added back in the proper line so that the whole post wasn't a quote.

I'm glad you are enjoying the Terran Campaign!  That was my first campaign write-up, and kind of embarrassing in some ways when I go back and look at it.  Steve was actually the first to do more than a one-off when he started posting his Rigellian Campaign, and that motivated me to start posting the Terran Campaign.  Unfortunately, the SA database for the Terran Campaign became corrupted, and I couldn't continue it.  My next campaign, the Phoenix Campaign, is based on the ending conditions of the Terran Campaign, and I took that one as far as I could before it became unmanageable.  I tried to restart it a couple of times, but it was just too big to play out in reasonable time frames. 

Kurt

[Kurt (OP)]

Yeah...hell I've been where I am for more than six years now...I'm feeling ancient...

Well the no-shields thing the Drakes are big on, but even they got their limbs twisted to the point their assault ships carry passive defenses...just not as many as most assault ships do.  But they still sent their deep space ships through and that was...ouch!  Their assault cruisers charging the enemy SDs was also ouch!!!  But the only thing that saved that battle was me tossing 300 pods through the warp point but the damage to essentially every ship in the combined force meant no follow up battle...plus those were the pods intended for the next warp point.   But having 6 SDs decloak on me was "un-expected" to say the least.  Given the RM has also got cloak...I have to remember to install it on their next generation of bases as well...what I can't figure out is where the damned partial write up for it vanished too...maybe I need to look on my slaptop...

I see the Russkies have worked out that they can't ignore the RC...I wondered when that would happen and what they would do...as they have a commanding military presence in the Sol system.

The RC and the USSR have a complicated relationship, militarily.  The USSR has an overall tonnage superiority, and that gives them advantages.  There are three critical areas for each government.  Earth, the WP into and out of the Solar system, and each nation's colonial areas, or more properly, the route to each nation's colonial areas.  Up to now, both nations have a heavy fleet presence at Earth and the WP, but have avoided each other's colonial routes.  The Soviet's possession of the asteroid fortress has allowed them to deploy superior forces at WP area of operations, without deploying fleet assets, freeing up ships to concentrate into the Red Banner Fleet under General Lebedev.  They have fleet superiority around Earth, as well. 

However, their superiority in both locations only means so much.  Both sides have parity on Earth, and if either side feels pushed too much, they can unleash nuclear Armageddon on the other.  Fleet superiority at the WP, or even in the Earth area of operations, cannot prevent that, and the ships in the Earth AOR can only add to the Armageddon, not prevent it.  In the end the Russians can only push so far before the RC will threaten to launch at earth targets, just as the USSR would if the situation was reversed.  It's a fragile balance.  If either feels backed into a corner, they just might launch on the other's homeland.  Neither knows where that line is, even for themselves, much less the other side. 

Kurt

[misanthropope]

think the coalition's endgame is to become markedly less terra-reliant than the russians.  i would have extra-solar shipyards as a high, high priority.  the first time a credible coalition warship is spotted, that wasn't manufactured on earth, the forecast ability of the russians goes way down.

also, if they're aware of how the economics stand, they should be star wars-ing like mad things.  bases, i'd say.  the russians just have to blink first in a major arms race, and when they do being able to mothball high-maintenance units and keep a majority of your arms active is a durable advantage. 

if i knew in advance when the extra-solar holdings are going to become even remotely self-sufficient, i would lay down an asteroid fortress to complete on that date, and there would be some kind of snafu that prevented me from moving it OUT of orbit promptly.  oopsie, my bad.

[Kurt (OP)]

think the coalition's endgame is to become markedly less terra-reliant than the russians.  i would have extra-solar shipyards as a high, high priority.  the first time a credible coalition warship is spotted, that wasn't manufactured on earth, the forecast ability of the russians goes way down.

also, if they're aware of how the economics stand, they should be star wars-ing like mad things.  bases, i'd say.  the russians just have to blink first in a major arms race, and when they do being able to mothball high-maintenance units and keep a majority of your arms active is a durable advantage. 

if i knew in advance when the extra-solar holdings are going to become even remotely self-sufficient, i would lay down an asteroid fortress to complete on that date, and there would be some kind of snafu that prevented me from moving it OUT of orbit promptly.  oopsie, my bad.

That, indeed, is both nation's goal at this point, although they have been approaching it differently.  The USSR originally hoped to conquer the D'Bringi and use their industrial base to make their extra-solar holdings self-sufficient.  When that became problematic, they turned to colonization.  The Coalition focused on colonization from the first.  Unfortunately, to slow down the bloat that goes with Starfire strategic gaming, I've slowed down population growth considerably, so even though we've reached turn 95 neither side has an extra-solar colony reach medium size. 

As I (kind of) noted in my previous post, they both face a significant problem if they are too successful.  If either side succeeds to well, they face increased likelihood of nuclear war at home when the other side reacts in the only way it can. 

And, of course, while the Russians and the Coalition are primarily focused on each other, there are other races out there, pursuing their own goals. 

Kurt 

[Gyrfalcon]

Interesting update. While I've been wishing that the Coalition would stand up for itself and stop letting the Soviets walk all over it, I'm not sure putting a racist (specist?) leader in charge is the way to fix that.

Of course what they don't know is that the Soviets can hire a few BC fleets from their new military allies and let 'rogue aliens' jump into the Coalition-controlled jump points and flatten colonies.

Also, with the inspections, what is to stop the two human sides from misstating the sizes of their colonies and transshipping trade goods by sending them first to a colony, and then onward to the partner alien species?

[misanthropope]

feel both sides have helped each other significantly here

the russians produced a crisis that was acute instead of chronic, and resolved in a way that specifically doesnt interfere with coalition colonization.  they handed the coalition the fine idea to support the d'brngi and alerted the coalition to the possibility of gyrfalcon's excellent suggestion being followed.  the coalition, in an universe where diplomacy is the optimal method of acquiring major population hubs, have adopted a MCGA foreign "policy".  feel the score is 2-1 russians, all own goals.

full marks on verisimilitude, Kurt.

[Kurt (OP)]

Interesting update. While I've been wishing that the Coalition would stand up for itself and stop letting the Soviets walk all over it, I'm not sure putting a racist (specist?) leader in charge is the way to fix that.

Of course what they don't know is that the Soviets can hire a few BC fleets from their new military allies and let 'rogue aliens' jump into the Coalition-controlled jump points and flatten colonies.

Also, with the inspections, what is to stop the two human sides from misstating the sizes of their colonies and transshipping trade goods by sending them first to a colony, and then onward to the partner alien species?

Aggressive actions towards democracies tend to have negative consequences when election time rolls around.  Sometimes (usually) negative consequences for everyone involved.  Its amazing how often a population will say, essentially, "Oh, yeah, well what about this?" at election time. 

The current Soviet leadership is unwilling to bring aliens into the Solar System, but wouldn't be above using them to snipe a Coalition colony or two if they found a back-door into the Coalition colonial territory.  The coalition, for its part, has established military patrols in its colonial territory, mostly because it fears that the D'Bringi, in spite of their "stay-away" treaty, wouldn't be above raiding a colony if they found it.  Unfortunately for the Coalition, their out-system colonial forces are perpetually starved for ships because of the fleet's primary focus on the Solar System. 

The inspections are currently focused on looking for military equipment only, as the Russian's stated concern was that the Coalition was trading military equipment with the D'Bringi.  Both sides are using them to gather intel, though, and the Russians have a good idea of the number and extent of the Coalition's colonies, while the Coalition has an increasing suspicion that the Russians are trading with someone out there, but not who. 

Kurt

[Kurt (OP)]

 

feel both sides have helped each other significantly here

the russians produced a crisis that was acute instead of chronic, and resolved in a way that specifically doesnt interfere with coalition colonization.  they handed the coalition the fine idea to support the d'brngi and alerted the coalition to the possibility of gyrfalcon's excellent suggestion being followed.  the coalition, in an universe where diplomacy is the optimal method of acquiring major population hubs, have adopted a MCGA foreign "policy".  feel the score is 2-1 russians, all own goals.

full marks on verisimilitude, Kurt.

 

The Russians seem ahead, so far.  We'll see how that works out. 

Kurt

[Paul M]

I'd say the RCN is going to run into a problem with the crabs...  For one thing showing the CAs means they can now build them...  Trying to keep Wunderland and not dealing with the Aliens...that isn't really sensible or long term sustainable given how fast they got to HT1.  Also they may be building PDCs as well as armed SS...and frankly though it is extremely costy they can also pre-fab a SY and then assemble it in orbit...with ground industry the process is fast just very costy.   Ah well short sighted politicians will be an issue...it is going to be interesting what happens there.

[Kurt (OP)]

I'd say the RCN is going to run into a problem with the crabs...  For one thing showing the CAs means they can now build them...  Trying to keep Wunderland and not dealing with the Aliens...that isn't really sensible or long term sustainable given how fast they got to HT1.  Also they may be building PDCs as well as armed SS...and frankly though it is extremely costy they can also pre-fab a SY and then assemble it in orbit...with ground industry the process is fast just very costy.   Ah well short sighted politicians will be an issue...it is going to be interesting what happens there.

The RCSN knew that parading big hulls in front of the Tarek was a risk, but it was a calculated one.  After all, at the Tarek's current tech level, its probably going to take them twenty months or so to proto-type a heavy cruiser.  That doesn't mean they won't do it, but still, that's a long time, and very expensive for a low-tech one planet race. 

The Tarek currently have a swarm of L or R equipped space stations in orbit over their planet, but as space stations they won't take much to kill, and because they are HT 1 they have no active defenses.  Launching a heavy cruiser would be impressive for a HT-1 race, but it isn't going to be a very effective cruiser.  A well-supported RCSN cruiser squadron will likely be able to clear out almost anything the Tarek can field in the short to medium term.   

Having said all of that, there is always the question of whether the Tarek know or believe that.  Also, if the RCSN has, say, an emergency somewhere, and withdraws the local defense squadron, what do you think the Tarek will do?

Kurt

[misanthropope]

I don't even see what the coalition were hoping for.  so the tarek write on a piece of paper "oh yeah, we TOTALLY won't overrun your colony and blockade the warp points after you give us a couple years of uninterrupted expansion"?  i mean that's the best case.  the biggest problem the tarek pose right now is how to keep a million gallons of butter sauce from spoiling in transit, but things compound *fast* in starfire.

what's ETA on tech level 6 for the coalition?

[Paul M]

I had forgotten to mention a race who are client of the Drakes... the Moldovians....who have been bootstrapped to HT2...and have the following designs...

SAFE HOUSE class SS            50 Hull    TL 0
[1] Ax12HBx5Lx3QBx3Rx3Bx4QLhMg

50 RCP  50 MCP       Trg:1        Cost =  334/ 6.7
HTK 35   Ax12  Lx3  Rx3  Mgx1 
200x BM

They have 2 of these SS orbiting their planet.  The B's are there so I can install systems later.

CHOP SHOP (INTERM 4) class SS            530 Hull    TL 1
[1] Ax12HBx5Lx3QBx3Rx3Bx4QLhMg(SY)x6

530 RCP  50 MCP       Trg:1        Cost =  3934/ 30.7
HTK 95   Ax12  Lx3  Rx3  Mgx1 
150x BM

One Safehouse was modified to be their orbital yard.

ENFORCER class PDC            154 Hull    TL 0
[1] (SP)Apx60HQBHQBHQBHQBGbx3Bx3QGbx3Bx3Gbx3Bx3MgBx3MgBMgBQBBGbMg

154 RCP  300 MCP       Trg:1        Cost =  477/ 47.7
HTK 105   Apx60  Gbx10  Mgx4 
400x GMb

6 of these protect their homeworld from unwanted visitors.  They use the Gb as the idea was to be able to defend against fighters and other small craft.

PROTOTYPE: CA class CA            60 Hull    TL 1
[3] (IcIc)H(IcIc)Q(IcIc)Lx10LhQ(IcIc) [4]
60 RCP  40 MCP       Trg:1        Cost =  693/ 104
HTK 22   Lx10 

their first CA...and they have a second under construction and as per their patrons will deploy them in CA + 2 DD groups.

PROTOTYPE: DD class DD            30 Hull    TL 1
[3] (Ic)H(Ic)(Ic)Rx4GbGbMgLhQ(Ic) [4]
30 RCP  20 MCP       Trg:1        Cost =  222/ 33.3
HTK 14   Rx4  Gbx2  Mgx1 
40x GMb, 80x BM

Their first DD intended to escort their CAs, they have 3 of them with a fourth under construction. 

They are HT2 and working on the techs they need before they can start HT3...so far no technology has been developed but they are close.  Income: 1710 MCr Trade: 171 MCr Tech Assistance: 500 MCr.  The Drakes have an outpost on their homeworld that is helping them develop technology.  Also they are a ST race with a poor homeworld.

Yes...no armour or shields and commercial engines...well...maybe not the best combo!

[Kurt (OP)]

I don't even see what the coalition were hoping for.  so the tarek write on a piece of paper "oh yeah, we TOTALLY won't overrun your colony and blockade the warp points after you give us a couple years of uninterrupted expansion"?  i mean that's the best case.  the biggest problem the tarek pose right now is how to keep a million gallons of butter sauce from spoiling in transit, but things compound *fast* in starfire.

what's ETA on tech level 6 for the coalition?

The Coalition was hoping to overawe the Tarek with a show of might.  It more or less worked, as the Tarek had previously only seen what the Coalition had on hand in the Sligo system, and was preceding on the assumption that that patrol force was a significant part of the RCSN navy.  Having seen a cruiser group, they have to re-evaluate their situation. 

As things stand, the Tarek don't pose any kind of long or even medium-term threat to the coalition.  But if the Coalition becomes embroiled in a war, and has to withdraw its forces, that may change. 

Very soon on HT-6 for the Coalition. 

Kurt

[Gyrfalcon]

How does it work in Starfire? I get the idea from the comments here that if a race sees a hull from a (much) higher tech level in any capacity, they can then attempt to reproduce the hull, even if they aren't at a tech level that would allow for it?

So if someone shows up with a battleship in a HT-1 system and orbits that species homeworld, they could (foolishly) attempt to build their own battleship(s), long before they're at a tech level where they would unlock the hull naturally?