Cold War Comments Thread

[misanthropope]

"30 isn't the biggest number there is?!?  Wait, hold on!" (intense thinking) "K I got it.  45 is _actually_ the biggest number"

-everyone

also:  going from the invention of _agriculture_ to the invention of the reactionless starship drive, unassisted, in a single generation?  that's an "everyone" thing too. 

[Kurt (OP)]

How does it work in Starfire? I get the idea from the comments here that if a race sees a hull from a (much) higher tech level in any capacity, they can then attempt to reproduce the hull, even if they aren't at a tech level that would allow for it?

So if someone shows up with a battleship in a HT-1 system and orbits that species homeworld, they could (foolishly) attempt to build their own battleship(s), long before they're at a tech level where they would unlock the hull naturally?

The rules (15.08.04.1) merely say "observe", which I choose to interpret the following way: Within 20 hexes (5 LS) of a ship without Xr, or 60 hexes (15 LS) of a ship with Xr or a planet with at least a small HT population. 

This can create a situation where a low tech race, say HT 1, can theoretically build a superdreadnought, but in reality its not really a concern.  After all, for that HT-1 race to do that, they'd have to prototype the hull, which would take them 22 months, because proto-type construction rates are halved, and the cost would almost certainly be 3-4 months of income, at least.  All of that for a ship that will be a massively inferior capital ship. 

Plus, the ability to build an SD does not mean that the HT-1 race suddenly is also able to build every hull in between.   

[Kurt (OP)]

"30 isn't the biggest number there is?!?  Wait, hold on!" (intense thinking) "K I got it.  45 is _actually_ the biggest number"

-everyone

also:  going from the invention of _agriculture_ to the invention of the reactionless starship drive, unassisted, in a single generation?  that's an "everyone" thing too.

Well, in this case the Tarek (if that is what we are talking about) were Ind-2, which means that they were more advanced than we are now, at the time of contact with the Coalition.  They were researching HT-1 and had been doing so for some time prior. 

Kurt

[Paul M]

They can prototype anything in between faster though as they don't have the 1/2 speed restriction on it.  They just have to pay the 5xhull cost for the prototyping.  So it is still a big advantage.  A low tech race building a BB well yeah it is a bad BB but it is still a BB.  So once the crabs finish a CA (assuming they start one) then they will still have to prototype a DD or a CL but they won't have to prototype their way up the chain ES-CT-FG-DD-CL-CA.   And even a HT1 CA is a threat to the in system squadron of CTs and ESs.

[Starslayer_D]

A HT1 CA is doable. It just doesn't have the speed advantage to close with a HT3 CA and its SM, W, Z and D advantage.

[Kurt (OP)]

They can prototype anything in between faster though as they don't have the 1/2 speed restriction on it.  They just have to pay the 5xhull cost for the prototyping.  So it is still a big advantage.  A low tech race building a BB well yeah it is a bad BB but it is still a BB.  So once the crabs finish a CA (assuming they start one) then they will still have to prototype a DD or a CL but they won't have to prototype their way up the chain ES-CT-FG-DD-CL-CA.   And even a HT1 CA is a threat to the in system squadron of CTs and ESs.

Hmmm...I think I misread that part of the rule.  Still, as I have reduced the build-rates, its going to take them a long time to proto-type that nice new CA. 

The Tarek really, really, hate the Coalition, though.  I mean, they really hate them.  I'm trying to avoid the "one-planet NPR war trap", though.  Especially in the mid to late game, there are too many times a one-planet NPRP will decide to go to war with the race that discovered them, per the contact rules.  That's just foolish in most cases, as that one-planet NPR could be picking a fight with a galaxy spanning empire, as far as they know.  That always ends badly for the little guy.  Almost always. 

Kurt

[Gyrfalcon]

Why do the Tarek hate the Coalition so badly? Is it just little-man syndrome 'they ignored our demands!!!!!1!' combined with raging, frothing xenophobia and genocidal urges?

[Kurt (OP)]

A HT1 CA is doable. It just doesn't have the speed advantage to close with a HT3 CA and its SM, W, Z and D advantage.

It's doable, and in my opinion, not necessarily a horrible idea.  Especially given the fact that by the time the proto-type launches, the Tarek will likely have better tech to install on her. 

The Coalition is in a tough position here.  Its government is philosophically opposed to launching an 'unprovoked' attack on the Tarek.  It's too loosely organized, and its states have too much veto power to do something that doesn't have near unanimous approval like that.  And there is nothing like unanimous approval for a pre-emptive attack, no matter what the Wunderlanders think.  Dealing with Russia is different, as there is a long history there, and close to unanimous agreement that they don't want to be conquered or marginalized by the Russians, and agreement that if they take their eyes off of them that's exactly what will happen.  With the Tarek, and other extra-solar races, the situation is very different. 

Privately, the current administration's attitude towards the Tarek is much the same as the last administration's attitude - leave them alone and hope they stay to themselves.  Protect the Wunderlanders with whatever ships can be spared, and retaliate with overwhelming force if the Tarek attack. 

Kurt

[Kurt (OP)]

Why do the Tarek hate the Coalition so badly? Is it just little-man syndrome 'they ignored our demands!!!!!1!' combined with raging, frothing xenophobia and genocidal urges?

The Coalition has no idea why, as the Tarek are the only ones that know, and they aren't even trying to communicate.  It could have something to do with their stats.  I'll give a hint, their racial outlook is 91, which, as an average of their stats, will give you some idea of the individual stat values.  The coalition is just lucky that the three-success race that they met was an Ind-2 race, and not at an equivalent tech level. 

Kurt

[Paul M]

The HT1 CA isn't facing CAs though it is facing CTs and ESs...the Wunderland system patrol.   Don't worry about miss-reading it...I read it first (and I went back to check) as doing that prototypes all hulls between but that isn't the case but saving the time is a still worth it.  There used to be huge advantages to even knowing that high tech systems exist via perceived threat but SM2 makes it pretty pointless as 1.5x the cost is not affordable by low tech races.

The Why of the crabs utter hatred of the shell-less, horrifying creatures from beyond the veil is of course a good question but maybe they resemble their equivalent of the boggie-man or child stealing ghosts or ... maybe they are a bunch of crazed #### deer..err crabs...

When I took over the Benethians who were up the economic septic creek in a leaky boat without any means of propulsion they were planning to attack the Thebans...  with I think 6 BB and maybe 12 BCs....   

[misanthropope]

nice installation, kurt.

it seems "it doesn't matter how they got there" is the wrongest statement in the story so far

battle was really close in raw tonnage.  what were the relative positions of the rehorsish and soviet fleets when the ambush started?  did the bad guys have any other tech advantage than E?  seems like it must have been a pretty fun battle to play out.  reasonably competitive and intense, but manageable in size.

edit:  reading skills. relative positions in the story.  nm

[Gyrfalcon]

Wow, that was an unexpected turn. Looking forward to how the Soviets deal with suddenly being the weaker party after being used to being able to throw their weight around with impunity.

[Kurt (OP)]

nice installation, kurt.

it seems "it doesn't matter how they got there" is the wrongest statement in the story so far

battle was really close in raw tonnage.  what were the relative positions of the rehorsish and soviet fleets when the ambush started?  did the bad guys have any other tech advantage than E?  seems like it must have been a pretty fun battle to play out.  reasonably competitive and intense, but manageable in size.

edit:  reading skills. relative positions in the story.  nm

It was close, except for the additional Rehorish fleet that had been hiding drive-fields down 60+ tac hexes away.  The Soviets picked them up towards the end, as they raced in to finish them off, but were wiped out before they could get there.  And no, the Rehorish and the D'Bringi didn't have any tech advantages at this point.  And, they manipulated the situation to make sure that their ships got to engage at their optimal weapons ranges, i.e, short range, while the Soviets couldn't take advantage of their missile superiority.  The Russians were forced to deal with the D'Bringi coming through the warp point ahead of them and then charging into close range for their beams, and by they time they realized that the Rehorish weren't on their side they too had closed into beam range.  The Rehorish started at 20 tac hexes (5 LS) range and then closed while the Russians were dealing with the D'Bringi. 

It was probably a good thing that none of the Russian's new BC's were with the Red Banner fleet, as they likely would have been lost too, and wouldn't have been able to use their capital missiles to their best effect. 

Kurt

[Kurt (OP)]

Wow, that was an unexpected turn. Looking forward to how the Soviets deal with suddenly being the weaker party after being used to being able to throw their weight around with impunity.

They are going to try to keep the Coalition in the dark for as long as possible.  On the Coalition side, when they find out that the Russian war with the D'Bringi has heated up they are going to have some uncomfortable situations to consider.  After all, what if the D'Bringi advance into the Sigma Draconis system, the Coalition's gateway to her colonies and the rest of the galaxy?  And, worse, what if the D'Bringi manage to force their way into the Solar system.  The Coalition absolutely cannot allow the D'Bringi to bombard the Soviet populations on Earth, or even engage the USSR's PDC's, because the collateral damage would be devastating.

Kurt 

[Gyrfalcon]

Before that though, they’re going to notice when the Russians go to serial production of all the light ships they lost that were the escorts for their battlecruisers. This will probably trigger some amount of panic when it looks like Russia is wildly escalating the size of its navy.