Author Topic: Cold War Comments Thread  (Read 74194 times)

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Offline StarshipCactus

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #165 on: August 20, 2020, 04:18:50 AM »
On the whole "a little disadvantage" thing...one thing that all naval officers learned somewhere near the turn of the century was that a little disadvantage turned into a big loss, it is one of the reasons I think there was so few naval engagements in WW2 for example and just thinking on it why carriers were so big a change, because you can't avoid a fight when carriers are present.  Anyway, as the saying goes...as an exercise to the reader to illustrate this: take two sides; A had 3 ships, B has 4 ships, each ship takes 4 damage to kill, each ship does 1 hit damage.  Line them up so each ship of A is engaged by 1 of B except ship 3 which has 2 attackers.  See what happens, feel free to change how the ships fight but it doesn't change the fact that A is destroyed for far less cost to B then 3:4 odd would intuitively indicate.

Probably the hardest thing I had to learn in starfire battles is that they are naval and not land engagements and the above applies.  Getting caught by a substantially larger force in one Bug-Seal battle was particularly painful as I had thought from the pre-battle banter I had a good chance of victory and then what showed up...I'm pretty sure Starslayer detected my discontent!  A lot of our recent battles have been to be blunt "inconclusive" simply because neither side felt they had an advantage big enough to tip the scales in their favour sufficiently to avoid major losses even in a victory.

From my experience in EVE Online as part of many fleets of every scale, from 3 man small gang roams up to 1k man keepstar sieges, I know how important a good fleet commander can be. If you can force a mistake or outmanoeuvre an enemy, you can make an inferior fleet composition work. So long as you know how your fleet works, how their fleet works, everybody plays well and you can force a mistake or outmanoeuvre the enemy fleet, you can pull off a victory, even a decisive victory. Of course, half the battle is won beforehand. In Starfire/Aurora, you make sure you build more/better ships with the best tech. In EVE, you want to recruit good pilots in large numbers, while making sure everybody has a good fleet comp trained and is well drilled in broadcasting for reps, following align commands and shooting the primary.
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #166 on: August 21, 2020, 08:55:36 AM »
On the whole "a little disadvantage" thing...one thing that all naval officers learned somewhere near the turn of the century was that a little disadvantage turned into a big loss, it is one of the reasons I think there was so few naval engagements in WW2 for example and just thinking on it why carriers were so big a change, because you can't avoid a fight when carriers are present.  Anyway, as the saying goes...as an exercise to the reader to illustrate this: take two sides; A had 3 ships, B has 4 ships, each ship takes 4 damage to kill, each ship does 1 hit damage.  Line them up so each ship of A is engaged by 1 of B except ship 3 which has 2 attackers.  See what happens, feel free to change how the ships fight but it doesn't change the fact that A is destroyed for far less cost to B then 3:4 odd would intuitively indicate.

Marshal Kosygin and I had this revelation simultaneously during his first, and last, battle <G>.  The parallels with surface naval battles aren't exact, though.  As I understand it, in the typical naval surface battle, a ship being fired at performs measurably worse than a ship that is not being targeted.  Thus, most fleets would train to spread their fire across the entire enemy battle line to ensure that all enemy ships were engaged.  Additionally, even later in WW II, at the height of surface engagement tech, capital ships had difficultly distinguishing their shell-fall from the salvoes of other capital ships, if they all aimed at the same target, which made it very difficult to adjust their fire, and thus they tended to target different ships to maximize their chances of hits. 

In Starfire, there is no disadvantage associated with concentrating your fire, and thus, the advantage of knocking an enemy ship out of the fight quickly becomes the overriding factor. 

However, none of that invalidates your point, which was that a small numerical or mass advantage can quickly translate to a significant advantage in battle, which is both true and something the Russians learned at great cost. 

Quote
Probably the hardest thing I had to learn in starfire battles is that they are naval and not land engagements and the above applies.  Getting caught by a substantially larger force in one Bug-Seal battle was particularly painful as I had thought from the pre-battle banter I had a good chance of victory and then what showed up...I'm pretty sure Starslayer detected my discontent!  A lot of our recent battles have been to be blunt "inconclusive" simply because neither side felt they had an advantage big enough to tip the scales in their favour sufficiently to avoid major losses even in a victory.

Starfire also adds in the technology dimension.  Higher tech, or at least the possession of critical "break-point" systems, such as fighters, or capital missile launchers, can make a big difference and overcome numerical or mass disadvantages. In this case, though, the tech advantage isn't clear.  Both sides are roughly the same, with the D'Bringi and the soviets roughly equivalent, and the Rehorish generally behind both.  The Soviets are slightly ahead of the D'Bringi, but the D'Bringi have access to some "wild-card" tech. 

Kurt

 
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #167 on: August 21, 2020, 09:22:31 AM »
On the whole "a little disadvantage" thing...one thing that all naval officers learned somewhere near the turn of the century was that a little disadvantage turned into a big loss, it is one of the reasons I think there was so few naval engagements in WW2 for example and just thinking on it why carriers were so big a change, because you can't avoid a fight when carriers are present.  Anyway, as the saying goes...as an exercise to the reader to illustrate this: take two sides; A had 3 ships, B has 4 ships, each ship takes 4 damage to kill, each ship does 1 hit damage.  Line them up so each ship of A is engaged by 1 of B except ship 3 which has 2 attackers.  See what happens, feel free to change how the ships fight but it doesn't change the fact that A is destroyed for far less cost to B then 3:4 odd would intuitively indicate.

Probably the hardest thing I had to learn in starfire battles is that they are naval and not land engagements and the above applies.  Getting caught by a substantially larger force in one Bug-Seal battle was particularly painful as I had thought from the pre-battle banter I had a good chance of victory and then what showed up...I'm pretty sure Starslayer detected my discontent!  A lot of our recent battles have been to be blunt "inconclusive" simply because neither side felt they had an advantage big enough to tip the scales in their favour sufficiently to avoid major losses even in a victory.

From my experience in EVE Online as part of many fleets of every scale, from 3 man small gang roams up to 1k man keepstar sieges, I know how important a good fleet commander can be. If you can force a mistake or outmanoeuvre an enemy, you can make an inferior fleet composition work. So long as you know how your fleet works, how their fleet works, everybody plays well and you can force a mistake or outmanoeuvre the enemy fleet, you can pull off a victory, even a decisive victory. Of course, half the battle is won beforehand. In Starfire/Aurora, you make sure you build more/better ships with the best tech. In EVE, you want to recruit good pilots in large numbers, while making sure everybody has a good fleet comp trained and is well drilled in broadcasting for reps, following align commands and shooting the primary.

In terms of the good fleet commander, you are pointing out the limitations of a solo campaign like the Cold War, or really any of my campaigns.  I realized early on that while I may be trying to create a character that is a brilliant, genius-level commander, I am most definitely not that, so I cannot conceive of the brilliant strategies that a brilliant commander might use.  So I have to satisfy myself, and hopefully anyone who reads what I produce, by saying that they are brilliant, or at least good at their jobs, and having them see things that others might not see. 

Paul and Starslayer have an advantage, in that there are two people involved in their campaign, which allows for true surprise, and possibly innovative strategies, whereas the solo campaign is more limited in that respect. 

Kurt
 

Offline StarshipCactus

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #168 on: August 21, 2020, 10:46:42 PM »
On the whole "a little disadvantage" thing...one thing that all naval officers learned somewhere near the turn of the century was that a little disadvantage turned into a big loss, it is one of the reasons I think there was so few naval engagements in WW2 for example and just thinking on it why carriers were so big a change, because you can't avoid a fight when carriers are present.  Anyway, as the saying goes...as an exercise to the reader to illustrate this: take two sides; A had 3 ships, B has 4 ships, each ship takes 4 damage to kill, each ship does 1 hit damage.  Line them up so each ship of A is engaged by 1 of B except ship 3 which has 2 attackers.  See what happens, feel free to change how the ships fight but it doesn't change the fact that A is destroyed for far less cost to B then 3:4 odd would intuitively indicate.

Probably the hardest thing I had to learn in starfire battles is that they are naval and not land engagements and the above applies.  Getting caught by a substantially larger force in one Bug-Seal battle was particularly painful as I had thought from the pre-battle banter I had a good chance of victory and then what showed up...I'm pretty sure Starslayer detected my discontent!  A lot of our recent battles have been to be blunt "inconclusive" simply because neither side felt they had an advantage big enough to tip the scales in their favour sufficiently to avoid major losses even in a victory.

From my experience in EVE Online as part of many fleets of every scale, from 3 man small gang roams up to 1k man keepstar sieges, I know how important a good fleet commander can be. If you can force a mistake or outmanoeuvre an enemy, you can make an inferior fleet composition work. So long as you know how your fleet works, how their fleet works, everybody plays well and you can force a mistake or outmanoeuvre the enemy fleet, you can pull off a victory, even a decisive victory. Of course, half the battle is won beforehand. In Starfire/Aurora, you make sure you build more/better ships with the best tech. In EVE, you want to recruit good pilots in large numbers, while making sure everybody has a good fleet comp trained and is well drilled in broadcasting for reps, following align commands and shooting the primary.

In terms of the good fleet commander, you are pointing out the limitations of a solo campaign like the Cold War, or really any of my campaigns.  I realized early on that while I may be trying to create a character that is a brilliant, genius-level commander, I am most definitely not that, so I cannot conceive of the brilliant strategies that a brilliant commander might use.  So I have to satisfy myself, and hopefully anyone who reads what I produce, by saying that they are brilliant, or at least good at their jobs, and having them see things that others might not see. 

Paul and Starslayer have an advantage, in that there are two people involved in their campaign, which allows for true surprise, and possibly innovative strategies, whereas the solo campaign is more limited in that respect. 

Kurt

Controlling both sides of the fight does make it rather difficult. It is hard enough trying to remember how much intel each faction knows going into the battle, without trying to simulate the commanders skill too.
 

Offline misanthropope

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #169 on: August 24, 2020, 12:45:47 PM »
boy, if this next bit goes just a little bit wrong it becomes the D'Bringi campaign from here on out.

played with a lot of folks who thought the one-month notice of war is a cultural imperative, but boy do i not think the humans can afford that.

did the coalition win concessions of any kind from the russians?
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #170 on: August 24, 2020, 01:37:16 PM »
Yeah the whole shoot on a single ship till it pops is a game-ism that doesn't exist in real life.   But at times I find spreading fire in starfire has advantages too, it reduces especially in missile combat overkill.  The formula is basically dA/dt = -B and dB/dt = -A and the solution to those linked equations gives you the fact that any disadvantage can result in the disadvantaged side loosing substantially more than the you might expect given the amount of disadvantage.  In those formula A and B are the strength of the two sides, and so strength can be rated in terms of ship numbers, C3I capabilities, technology and so forth.  I just chose to illustrate the concept in terms of ship numbers since the Sovietski-D'bringi battles were without significant technological differences.  The existence of weapon tiers also is supported: a force with F as opposed to L would be rated stronger.  The main take away is to not fight at a disadvantage, and that it is decidedly different from land combat where an inferior force can inflict disproportionate losses on a superior one. 

Manuever in most games is "overrated" as one is either closing, holding the range open, or opening the range.   The other side is doing the same thing.  Without restricted firing arcs (such as in Attack Vector Tactical or Squadron Strike or starfleet battles) for the most part manuver is trivial.  It can make a difference in Starfire, and frankly I'm a big manuever warfare person but realistically most starfire battles reduce quickly to weight of metal.  Torpedoes in Squadron Strike or Attack Vector Tactical are pure maneuver denial weapons...the stop the enemy from going certain ways and largely in starfire such things don't exist except for potentially small craft/fighters.   Sufficient numbers of those weapons likely will block the enemy from moving towards them.

My recommendation for dealing with characters who are supposed to be better at fleet combat is to give them a benefit on any turn they roll a natural 10 for initiative.   They can have the enemy move their full movement so not used pulsed movement, or they can get a +1 to missile fire, or they can treat beam fire as one category higher on the damage chart or point defences can be +1 to intercept.   You can add others that make sense to you.  As you are alone you have to be clear in your own head what each side knows and how they plan on fighting but that is hard.  We do have the advantage...and even when Starslayer is playing out battles without me he often asks me what one side will do and I do my best to give him an unbiased view.
 

Offline Starslayer_D

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #171 on: August 25, 2020, 02:52:37 AM »
Sometimes there are also surprises to be had. Last battle I wrote up had one side in claok vs a technological inferior side. While not completely without damage, it was a slaughter nevertheless. Current battle in progress turned out to decided by design philosophy. CM from XO racks from elite crews vs. BCs with only 7* Di as point defence... = ouch? I was a bit flabberghasted as two BCs basically got taken out of the fight in one salvo each. Pretty much decisive moment there, and unanticipated. (Both sides where pretty even in numbers...  well, once I finished writting it up, got a bit destracted by a good web book).
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #172 on: August 25, 2020, 08:54:26 AM »
boy, if this next bit goes just a little bit wrong it becomes the D'Bringi campaign from here on out.

played with a lot of folks who thought the one-month notice of war is a cultural imperative, but boy do i not think the humans can afford that.

did the coalition win concessions of any kind from the russians?

Essentially, the Russians have agreed to be the junior partner in the alliance, as their military is so much weaker than the Coalition's, and they are in such a worse position in so many ways.  In addition, the Coalition has worded the agreement in such a way so as to make it possible to bring the other Earth governments into the Alliance, making it a truly global effort.  At this point I'm not sure how I'm going to make this work, as SA only has slots for two races per planet.  Probably will be cosmetic for now. 

In game terms, the Coalition and the USSR have signed a partnership agreement, with the Coalition as the senior partner, instead of a jumped-up trade and military agreement like their last joint venture.  The Coalition certainly intends this be a permanent development, however, the Soviet Union signed out of desperation and because of a fear of internal instability.  If they can get their feet under them they may change their minds.  How that will work out for them is questionable, and will be very dependent on how the war goes. 

Kurt
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #173 on: August 25, 2020, 09:04:10 AM »
Sometimes there are also surprises to be had. Last battle I wrote up had one side in claok vs a technological inferior side. While not completely without damage, it was a slaughter nevertheless. Current battle in progress turned out to decided by design philosophy. CM from XO racks from elite crews vs. BCs with only 7* Di as point defence... = ouch? I was a bit flabberghasted as two BCs basically got taken out of the fight in one salvo each. Pretty much decisive moment there, and unanticipated. (Both sides where pretty even in numbers...  well, once I finished writting it up, got a bit destracted by a good web book).

SA's random design philosophy has had interesting effects in the game so far.  I thought the D'Bringi had the worst design philosophy ever, and would quickly lose once confronted.  After all, they were limited to Ic only, and their capital ships were armed with a mixture of beam weapons, no missiles, and light on the passive defenses.  To leaven their beam-only fleet, I gave the Keepers missile ships, so they at least had some missile ships to support their beam battle line, but I still thought they were doomed.  Instead, it has worked out pretty well.  They had enough time to abandon the Ic limitation once it became clear that it was a bad idea for beam-equipped cruisers to be tactically slower than everything else, and the mix of a beam-heavy fleet supported by a few missile squadrons has worked out very well.  The Russians have actually had missile parity, or even a slight advantage in terms of missile combatants in several battles, but ended up losing because they couldn't counter the beam-heavy battle line once it closed to weapons range.  Of course, being out-massed didn't help the Russians either. 

Kurt
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #174 on: September 02, 2020, 11:04:54 AM »
Well I'd say the new alliance will have several fairly important strategic decisions to make to define their operational foci.  I'm curious to see how that goes.

As far as SA random designs go, I learned that there is nothing truly stupid that can come out if it but the key is figuring out how to use what it gives you the most effectively.  Admittedly commercial engines with one speed lower than max and plasma gun would likely qualify as hard to figure out but generally no matter how wackadoodle it was some advantage could be seen by the combination as hair-pulling-ly bizarre as it can be.   Even the Laser and Energy Beam combo of the squidzies I have seen can give the attacker fits...since you have to carry on each ship two completely different sets of defences.   

Anyway I figure the next few months will be interesting...
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #175 on: September 02, 2020, 11:54:48 AM »
Well I'd say the new alliance will have several fairly important strategic decisions to make to define their operational foci.  I'm curious to see how that goes.

As far as SA random designs go, I learned that there is nothing truly stupid that can come out if it but the key is figuring out how to use what it gives you the most effectively.  Admittedly commercial engines with one speed lower than max and plasma gun would likely qualify as hard to figure out but generally no matter how wackadoodle it was some advantage could be seen by the combination as hair-pulling-ly bizarre as it can be.   Even the Laser and Energy Beam combo of the squidzies I have seen can give the attacker fits...since you have to carry on each ship two completely different sets of defences.   

Anyway I figure the next few months will be interesting...

The initial strategic problem for the new alliance is regaining control of the Sigma Draconis/Moskva system.  That system is the Earth's gateway to the stars, and must be controlled.  After that, there are several choices.  The Soviets will advocate strongly for regaining control of the Leningrad and Brezhnev systems, as what is left of their Home Fleet is trapped in the Brezhnev system.  Getting that fleet back has obvious advantages, but such a campaign would be risky, given the presence of at least two closed warp points in or around those systems.  Also, Leningrad, Brezhnev, and Gorkij are essentially worthless in and of themselves, except for the warp route to and from the D'Bringi Expanses.  The other possibility is launching a campaign to free the Soviet colonial territories, which has both the advantage of regaining the production capacity there, and represents a route to the home world of at least one of the D'Bringi alliance's member races, the Rehorish. 

I can't see either earth power deciding to commit significant forces to a campaign in the Soviet colonial territories until either the closed warp points are found or significant fortifications are built on the warp point from Moskva to Leningrad, to prevent raids or even major offensives along that route.  Until that is done, sending the fleet away from the Moskva/Sigma Draconis system will just open the allies up to an offensive from that area by the D'Bringi that could cut off supplies to any fleet deployed beyond that system. 

Kurt
« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 04:17:30 PM by Kurt »
 

Offline misanthropope

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #176 on: September 02, 2020, 03:26:12 PM »
from the tone of assessment there, Kurt, you make it sound like clearing out Moskva is a given.  I guess I'm not clear on what the capitalist swine can bring to bear; is it actually a shoo-in?  i mean, from the omniscient perspective?
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #177 on: September 02, 2020, 04:23:54 PM »
from the tone of assessment there, Kurt, you make it sound like clearing out Moskva is a given.  I guess I'm not clear on what the capitalist swine can bring to bear; is it actually a shoo-in?  i mean, from the omniscient perspective?

The humans have a pretty good assessment of the D'Bringi fleet strength in Moskva.  Remember, the Coalition is still present in the Moskva system, and has a fleet watching the D'Bringi, as well as scouts out across the system to watch for any other D'Bringi forces moving into the system.  Barring a surprise, they are confident that they can either force the D'Bringi back, or, if they attempt to fight, can defeat them.  The remaining Russian fleet is relatively small, but combined with the Coalition fleet, they out-mass the D'Bringi/T'Pau forces comfortably, and based on previous Russian experiences they know the D'Bringi don't have higher tech at this point. 

The wildcard is the Rehorish fleet.  The humans have no real idea how large it is, or where it is.  It was last seen in the Russian colonial territories, and has apparently been stopped by the closed warp point that lies along that chain in between Rehorish space and the inner human systems.  Whether it is still in the Russian colonial territories, or is moving through Rehorish and D'Bringi space to join forces with the D'Bringi fleet is unknown.  That is what the humans fear, though, is those two fleets joining.  Unless large reinforcements show up for the D'Bringi/T'Pau fleet, the humans are fairly confident that they can take them out. 

Kurt
 

Offline Migi

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #178 on: September 02, 2020, 05:06:23 PM »
What is a BS0?
If colonies can build ships, how much human industrial capacity is now outside Sol?
Also the soviets have 2 big fortresses (or did they scrap one?), are they going to stay in Sol or are they going to be moved the the warp points in Moskva in order to expand the defensive perimeter?
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #179 on: September 03, 2020, 10:58:22 AM »
A BS0 is a Basestation 0.  This is the smallest base that can be between 5 and 15 Hull spaces in size.  It is the equivalent of a corvette.

Industry in Starfire is very abstract.  Basically each population unit (PU*) produces 1+(Technology level/10)*(planetary mineral status factor**) MCr per turn.  So in the case of the colony assuming it on an average mineral wealth habitable world and has 150 PU and the RC is TL 5 then it will make 225 MCr per turn.  Any population is assumed to have a civilian produced and run space port and so those larger than colony size (I think I have this right) can produce "stuff" with it.  What gets complicated is what "stuff" costs, as often that depends on with what it is produced.  So construction of a ship in a ship yard costs base cost, construction on a planet surface costs more, the speed it can be built is also dependent on where it is built, and the total amount of produced in a turn is also limited.  One advantage of SA is that most of this is programmed in by Steve and you don't have to figure out where the heck it is in Imperial Starfire and then where in SM2 you have to look to see if it has changed.

*There are things called Industrial Units (IU) that produce on the same rate but aren't affected by planetary mineral status factor
**this is 0.5, 0.75, 1, 1.25 or 1.5 for habitable worlds and other multipliers for moons/non habitable planets
 
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