Author Topic: Cold War Comments Thread  (Read 47343 times)

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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #570 on: September 17, 2022, 01:42:11 PM »
So, the Lothari… speedbump or utter roadkill?

Probably speedbump that takes out a couple of patrol squadrons and maybe commits a small bit of genocide in a neighboring system just for fun.

Seems to be one of the things about Starfire AARs, when a generated race is naturally aggressive the mechanics pretty much force them to eventually declare a suicidal war against a major power even if it's not the most rational thing to do - although Kurt always justifies these silly choices well enough in his narratives! Though it does seem like it has been less common in NCW for some reason...
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #571 on: September 17, 2022, 04:00:06 PM »
So, the Lothari… speedbump or utter roadkill?

Probably speedbump that takes out a couple of patrol squadrons and maybe commits a small bit of genocide in a neighboring system just for fun.

Seems to be one of the things about Starfire AARs, when a generated race is naturally aggressive the mechanics pretty much force them to eventually declare a suicidal war against a major power even if it's not the most rational thing to do - although Kurt always justifies these silly choices well enough in his narratives! Though it does seem like it has been less common in NCW for some reason...

The Lothari are a mighty power in the galaxy!  As all will realize at some point!

The Starfire rules do push NPRs into wars with large races on a regular basis.  In the early game this might be problematic for a player race, but in the mid to later games they are barely speed bumps, even if they do have advanced tech.  In the phoenix campaign I remedied this by allowing the minor races to get together and talk to each other, and plot, under the auspices of the ASR.  This allowed the aggressive NPR's to try to work together against the major races, although in the end it didn't work out well for them. 

The Alliance doesn't really work the same way, though.  I have mostly ignored results that require minor races to declare war on major races.  Instead, I either make then irredeemably hostile to further contact, or have them bide their time, waiting for an opportunity. 
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #572 on: September 24, 2022, 11:02:08 PM »
Finally we meet the mysterious Benefactors, and... well, now there are even more questions. Indeed, with such incredible power and advanced technology, it is even more unclear what the goal is for these beings, since if their goal was simply galactic domination they would have no need to go about it in such a sneaky, roundabout manner. Unless they are, somehow, not as powerful as they appear, in which case the question is why they appear so powerful.

I'm assuming this race operates well beyond the printed rules of Starfire, of course? There's no veteran players nodding sagely in the background, thinking "Ah, yes, these are the Zyxnyphlorxynknytixans from Appendix P of the Galactic Secrets Errata to the High-Tech Addendum to the Imperial Starfire rules", right?  :P
 
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Offline Gyrfalcon

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #573 on: September 25, 2022, 01:14:49 AM »
I think its a case of Abusive Precursors that have ascended but continue to screw around with meatspace for the lulz.

Could they single-handedly conquer the universe? Surely, but that’s only fun the first few times.
 
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Offline Andrew

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #574 on: September 25, 2022, 03:18:35 AM »
I'm assuming this race operates well beyond the printed rules of Starfire, of course? There's no veteran players nodding sagely in the background, thinking "Ah, yes, these are the Zyxnyphlorxynknytixans from Appendix P of the Galactic Secrets Errata to the High-Tech Addendum to the Imperial Starfire rules", right?  :P
All the equipment on the large ships and the large ships themselves are High tech starfire equipment , including cloaking devices. The question of why they are not using direct invasion is much more complicated, at the moment it could be they would lose against the combined power of the alliances but at the start of the campaign they would have walked over the D'Bringi and Humans . Probably story related reasons based on their real origins
 
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Offline Paul M

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #575 on: September 26, 2022, 12:48:13 PM »
As Andrew says they are using high tech stuff (TL12+) but one consideration with high tech in starfire...quantity has a quality of its own.  So a TL15 CL might be very powerful but it costs the world and if you have a limited income then you can afford 3 TL15 CLs but for the same price the others get 15 TL7 CLs.  The speed either comes from home rules, super advanced engine tuners, or tactical engines...depending on if that was a monitor or else something larger and depending if I interpreted the description right.

Starfire has several break points technology wise.  And the tech level of the various races is at the cusp of one of them...being HT7-9 and fighting a race with HT10-12 is very brutal.  You may not have AM missiles and they have AAM...so your nuclear armed standard missiles do 1 damage their missiles do 3, and it gets worse for capital missiles.  They ignore your ECM theirs is still effective.  Their point defence is harder to overwhelm.  Their shields may reset, their passive armour belt is both thicker or else can do a serious number on your laser weapons.  In fighter to fighter combat F0 against F2+ is a joke.  The F2 can outfly the F0 to the point the F0 can't engage unless they are sitting on the target itself.

What they want...given the vorlon vibe I assume this is some war in heaven scenario sorta kinda thing.
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #576 on: September 27, 2022, 09:09:05 AM »
As Andrew says they are using high tech stuff (TL12+) but one consideration with high tech in starfire...quantity has a quality of its own.  So a TL15 CL might be very powerful but it costs the world and if you have a limited income then you can afford 3 TL15 CLs but for the same price the others get 15 TL7 CLs.  The speed either comes from home rules, super advanced engine tuners, or tactical engines...depending on if that was a monitor or else something larger and depending if I interpreted the description right.

Starfire has several break points technology wise.  And the tech level of the various races is at the cusp of one of them...being HT7-9 and fighting a race with HT10-12 is very brutal.  You may not have AM missiles and they have AAM...so your nuclear armed standard missiles do 1 damage their missiles do 3, and it gets worse for capital missiles.  They ignore your ECM theirs is still effective.  Their point defence is harder to overwhelm.  Their shields may reset, their passive armour belt is both thicker or else can do a serious number on your laser weapons.  In fighter to fighter combat F0 against F2+ is a joke.  The F2 can outfly the F0 to the point the F0 can't engage unless they are sitting on the target itself.

Yep.  A fully loaded F2 is faster than a loaded F0 and can carry enough weapons to have both anti-fighter or anti-ship capability, while the F0 pretty much is either/or.  The expense does go way up, though. 

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What they want...given the vorlon vibe I assume this is some war in heaven scenario sorta kinda thing.

Good catch.  B5 was pretty much my favorite science fiction series, along with the Expanse, and has snuck into more than one of my campaigns.  I was wondering if anyone would pick up on that. 
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #577 on: September 27, 2022, 12:51:32 PM »
B5 hooked me when during the pilot episode I saw the starfuries fire thrusters to spin, fire thrusters to stop spinning and then fly backwards firing on their targets.  Then the pheromonal story arcs where little things in one episode would show up later.  I must admit that while I liked Sheridan, I thought Sinclair was the better character.  Episodes like Sigma 957, were just a cut above the usual SF show fare.  Huge fan...have all the shows on DVD!  I like the Expanse as well, but have not had a chance to binge on it.

Starslayer and I added in advanced beam weapons as, at least I felt, that beam weapons for smaller ships (CAs and smaller in our game can't mount capital weapons) needed something.  I think a change like this is necessary else every ship smaller than a SD under most circumstances is armed with Wa only.   

Fighters are a rich mans weapon system.  The trouble is that you either have enough to obliterate the enemy in a single firing pass or else not enough to do anything of significance, rarely are you in a middle ground.  So either you go carrier heavy and have problems with things like warp point assaults or else you have to accept that your fighters are situationally valuable.  What makes the second option painful is that when you don't have enough fighters that means that you are significantly weaker as the carriers are nothing but targets, the fighters will die with poor exchanges and your fleet lacks the weapons it otherwise would have if it didn't have any carriers with them.  Starslayer would add in the cost of gunboats is also not trivial and they die in job lots and the replacement costs (MCr and shipyards) is significant.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #578 on: September 27, 2022, 10:40:44 PM »
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The Aurarii commander, Lord Major Vintari, ordered the Doraz force to surrender or be destroyed.  Warleader Grogan, the CO of the Doraz force, sent back a rudely worded reply that implied that the Centauri commander had had relations with his own mother. 

Truly the legacy of the Zaphorozhian Cossacks lives on, even amongst those peoples who have never heard of such a people.  ;D
 

Offline StarshipCactus

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #579 on: September 28, 2022, 05:01:20 AM »
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Warleader Grogan, the CO of the Doraz force, sent back a rudely worded reply that implied that the Centauri commander had had relations with his own mother.
Absolute GigaChad move.
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #580 on: September 29, 2022, 09:00:55 AM »
B5 hooked me when during the pilot episode I saw the starfuries fire thrusters to spin, fire thrusters to stop spinning and then fly backwards firing on their targets.  Then the pheromonal story arcs where little things in one episode would show up later.  I must admit that while I liked Sheridan, I thought Sinclair was the better character.  Episodes like Sigma 957, were just a cut above the usual SF show fare.  Huge fan...have all the shows on DVD!  I like the Expanse as well, but have not had a chance to binge on it.

Starslayer and I added in advanced beam weapons as, at least I felt, that beam weapons for smaller ships (CAs and smaller in our game can't mount capital weapons) needed something.  I think a change like this is necessary else every ship smaller than a SD under most circumstances is armed with Wa only.   

Fighters are a rich mans weapon system.  The trouble is that you either have enough to obliterate the enemy in a single firing pass or else not enough to do anything of significance, rarely are you in a middle ground.  So either you go carrier heavy and have problems with things like warp point assaults or else you have to accept that your fighters are situationally valuable.  What makes the second option painful is that when you don't have enough fighters that means that you are significantly weaker as the carriers are nothing but targets, the fighters will die with poor exchanges and your fleet lacks the weapons it otherwise would have if it didn't have any carriers with them.  Starslayer would add in the cost of gunboats is also not trivial and they die in job lots and the replacement costs (MCr and shipyards) is significant.

Interesting about limiting capital weapons to larger ships.  I'll have to think about that. 

Your last paragraph summarizes the problems and advantages of the swarm, whether its fighters or corvettes.  A swarm either wins big or loses big, there is no in between with a swarm.  With a corvette swarm, if it out-masses an opposing fleet by 1.5 or more it will likely win the battle, if it is near equivalent tech.  If it is under 1.5, then it is going to lose, and the loss will be total while the opposing fleet might not suffer any losses at all.  If it is more than 1.5 then it will likely win, but even then it will suffer significant losses.  The swarm has countervailing advantages to offset that reality.  It is quicker to build a bunch of corvettes than it is to build a battlecruiser or superdreadnought.  Corvettes are faster, both tactically and strategically.  However, a swarm, either fighters or corvettes, are bad at warp point assault. 

I don't have any races in the Cold War campaign that use the corvette swarm tactic.  The Alliance uses a lot of corvette-carriers, which are arguably the ultimate swarm, but they are used to dominate the scouting role rather than as an actual swarm.  The Alliance associate member state of Zir uses the swarm approach, but has never tested it and the Alliance, which is loss sensitive as it is an 'advanced' society with a public that would react poorly to heavy losses, is trying to convince the Zir that they should change their approach to a more standard fleet layout.  In the Phoenix Campaign I had a minor aggressor race that used swarm corvettes very successfully during the initial stages of their war against the largest and most powerful race in the game, however, the tide was turning against them by the time the campaign came to an end. 

Kurt
 

Offline StarshipCactus

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #581 on: October 02, 2022, 10:13:06 PM »
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The negotiations begin promptly, with the governor demanding reinstatement of the D’Bringi home world into the Alliance, with himself as leader and his choice of candidate placed into the D’Bringi position on the Council.
The balls on that guy! Still, I guess you might as well ask for everything right? The worst they'll do is laugh at you. I wonder if the populations of the alliance have some equivalent to memes that they might share. You can imagine this convo getting leaked and turned into either a joke about how stupid you can get or how much of a boss you have to be to ask for that after they brought a fleet and blockaded you lol.
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #582 on: October 03, 2022, 10:02:56 AM »
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The negotiations begin promptly, with the governor demanding reinstatement of the D’Bringi home world into the Alliance, with himself as leader and his choice of candidate placed into the D’Bringi position on the Council.
The balls on that guy! Still, I guess you might as well ask for everything right? The worst they'll do is laugh at you. I wonder if the populations of the alliance have some equivalent to memes that they might share. You can imagine this convo getting leaked and turned into either a joke about how stupid you can get or how much of a boss you have to be to ask for that after they brought a fleet and blockaded you lol.

When you're teetering on the brink of disaster, go big or go home.  If you win it was always your destiny, if not, well, you tried.  I think a lot of politicians embrace this line of thought. 
 

Offline Voltbot

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #583 on: October 04, 2022, 05:06:57 AM »
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The negotiations begin promptly, with the governor demanding reinstatement of the D’Bringi home world into the Alliance, with himself as leader and his choice of candidate placed into the D’Bringi position on the Council.
The balls on that guy! Still, I guess you might as well ask for everything right? The worst they'll do is laugh at you. I wonder if the populations of the alliance have some equivalent to memes that they might share. You can imagine this convo getting leaked and turned into either a joke about how stupid you can get or how much of a boss you have to be to ask for that after they brought a fleet and blockaded you lol.

When you're teetering on the brink of disaster, go big or go home.  If you win it was always your destiny, if not, well, you tried.  I think a lot of politicians embrace this line of thought.

That is one way of thinking... However if he just wanted to save himself (and possibly his comrades) from whatever is done there to people like him (should I call it a terrorist, traitor or an enemy of the race?), he might just asked for a deal, that they give won't fight the alliance and would give them control over the system, for an amnesty.
 

Offline Starslayer_D

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #584 on: October 05, 2022, 05:33:31 AM »
Well, lessons learned from the fights in pauls and my campaign, for the bugs, was that if you have the tech advantage, push. The first battles vs Undines adn allies saw the bugs infilct attriciously onesided battles, even in warp point assaults, obliterating whole fleets. And they would have been able to push faster, except....
time and cost to replace 6ßß+ gunboats... the smaller, frontier shps yards didn#t have enough capacity to fill them back up quickly, and the home world ship yards didn't have enough money available to do so, and round trips.. so it was, destraoy a fleet, go back, repair and restock, come back to face a new fleet. So its the knife vs the grindstone...  instead of the sledgehammer vs the eggshell. And the allies by ow have caught up to TL 10 gearwise... but the bugs reached TL 11 and finished refitting. Future will be interersting again, especially attacking bug systeems will be a pita for anyone die to massive cloaked fleets.
How a TL10 Undine fleet fared vs a cloaked bug fleet.. 10 BCs anihilatda  complete undinefleet, as when the opened fire they were in almost sprint range with AAM Wa...  + launched gunboats, vs foes wich had to make readyness rolls.

There's still fight in the creeply-crawlies..