Cold War Comments Thread

[Kurt (OP)]

Well, lessons learned from the fights in pauls and my campaign, for the bugs, was that if you have the tech advantage, push. The first battles vs Undines adn allies saw the bugs infilct attriciously onesided battles, even in warp point assaults, obliterating whole fleets. And they would have been able to push faster, except....
time and cost to replace 6ßß+ gunboats... the smaller, frontier shps yards didn#t have enough capacity to fill them back up quickly, and the home world ship yards didn't have enough money available to do so, and round trips.. so it was, destraoy a fleet, go back, repair and restock, come back to face a new fleet. So its the knife vs the grindstone...  instead of the sledgehammer vs the eggshell. And the allies by ow have caught up to TL 10 gearwise... but the bugs reached TL 11 and finished refitting. Future will be interersting again, especially attacking bug systeems will be a pita for anyone die to massive cloaked fleets.
How a TL10 Undine fleet fared vs a cloaked bug fleet.. 10 BCs anihilatda  complete undinefleet, as when the opened fire they were in almost sprint range with AAM Wa...  + launched gunboats, vs foes wich had to make readyness rolls.

There's still fight in the creeply-crawlies..

The lag caused by the need to deal with the aftermath of a battle is something that both the Alliance and the Colonial Union have noted and are trying to deal with, although the Alliance is more motivated given its size.  The need to send damaged ships back to yards, with trips that often take months, followed by one or more months in the yards, followed by the return trip to the front, is galling and can stall an offensive or crippled a defense.  Same for empty carriers.  The Alliance actually prepared for this by building and deploying squadrons of machine-ship ships capable of repairing damage, accompanied by freighters with crated fighters, however, these were all out of position given the way the piecemeal fleet deployments have gone in response to first the D'Bringi insurrection and then the invasions by the minor powers. 

The tech advantage/disadvantage is powerful but can only make up for so much.  In the old Phoenix Campaign, the bugs fielded very powerful fleets, but the ASR was learning the secret to bleeding them dry.  Retreat and give up systems in exchange for bleeding the bug fleets.  Retreat to the next system, throw up a warp point defense as best you can, and reinforce it as quickly as possible.  Given the fleet sizes available on both sides, the defenses quickly got to the level that the bugs had to use a simul-transit to break the defenses, which they were perfectly willing to do.  However, every time they did that, they lost around 30% of the committed fleet just to interpenetrations, aside from battle damage.  Losing 30% of your fleet for every system you take quickly becomes intolerable, as the bugs were quickly realizing. 

And that is without cloaking tech.  If I remember correctly, there was one smaller race that had cloaking tech in the Phoenix Campaign, but it was not in general use. 

[misanthropope]

it feels immoral to build shipyard capacity that you won't even use on a recurring basis.  but between tech level 2 and 6 (ish), yards go from being very expensive to very cheap, relative to the fleets they produce.  building 6 yards that you will literally never use to guarantee you will have one yard right where you want it in a crisis, generally worth it for bigger/ more advanced polities.

[Kurt (OP)]

it feels immoral to build shipyard capacity that you won't even use on a recurring basis.  but between tech level 2 and 6 (ish), yards go from being very expensive to very cheap, relative to the fleets they produce.  building 6 yards that you will literally never use to guarantee you will have one yard right where you want it in a crisis, generally worth it for bigger/ more advanced polities.

Yes, exactly.  Smaller races would have to divert a disproportionate share of their income to develop these capabilities, but for the majors, it will be seen as a sound investment in offensive expeditionary capability.  For example, the Alliance, based on its recent experiences, wants an expeditionary support squadron available in several different locations across their territory to support fleet operations.  Probably one per sector (they have three), plus extras at the home worlds.  Each expeditionary support squadron would have some repair ships equipped with machine shops, which are smaller than shipyards, and less capable, but can perform repairs and unbox fighters as replacements.  There would also be freighters carrying boxed fighters, supply ships with stored maintenance supplies, and ammunition ships with magazine reloads.  All of these would give an Alliance fleet unparalleled capabilities in sustaining long range operations, unmatched by any race in the game.  Just how many of each kind of ship there would be in each squadron is open to debate, and dependent on the time and resources the Alliance wants to sink into the project. 

The problem is, shipyard ships, or even machine shop ships, tend to get pulled into other operations.  For instance, machine shops can be used to refit existing units, and when refit time comes around, it can be very tempting to pull those ships off-station to support the nation's efforts to refit their bases and ships.  This is a reasonable use of existing resources, especially in peace time, but if something kicks off unexpectedly, that means that those machine shop ships might not be where they are needed.  This happened to the Alliance.  They had several squadrons of machine shop ships and mobile shipyards, for supporting fleet operations, but when the need to fortify the Zir Villiers system came up they all got sucked into that mission, and then were retasked from that to begin refitting the 6th Fleet's ships.  When first the D'Bringi, and then the Lothari and Aurarii troubles kicked off, none of them were available to support operations, as they were in a distant location beyond the frontier of the Alliance.   

[Gyrfalcon]

So gunboats are stupidly overpowered. What’s the counter to them - more gunboats?

[Andrew]

1) They are very expensive, replacing those casualties will not be cheap.
2) Fighters can be very effective against them. Particularly when they know what they are fighting and don't have lots of enemy fighters around
3) They are vulnerable to ship launched weapons, again a prepared fleet can inflict nasty losses on them. Their point defense is as effective as ships but 1 hit kills them so concentration of Advanced missile launcher fire or spreading out the fire to get maximum benefit from each leaker. At closer range sprint mode advanced missiles get a very high kill rate per hull space and if they are goinf for the lethal fighter rocket attack then they have to get very close.

I suspect those two fleets were slightly in favour of the Lothari by cost and that was a pyrhhic victory gutting the Lothari fleet and they will find it harder to replace than the alliance , if they win every battle that way they lose the war badly

[Kurt (OP)]

1) They are very expensive, replacing those casualties will not be cheap.
2) Fighters can be very effective against them. Particularly when they know what they are fighting and don't have lots of enemy fighters around
3) They are vulnerable to ship launched weapons, again a prepared fleet can inflict nasty losses on them. Their point defense is as effective as ships but 1 hit kills them so concentration of Advanced missile launcher fire or spreading out the fire to get maximum benefit from each leaker. At closer range sprint mode advanced missiles get a very high kill rate per hull space and if they are goinf for the lethal fighter rocket attack then they have to get very close.

I suspect those two fleets were slightly in favour of the Lothari by cost and that was a pyrhhic victory gutting the Lothari fleet and they will find it harder to replace than the alliance , if they win every battle that way they lose the war badly

#1 - Correct, and the Lothari have limited resources, compared to the Alliance. 
#2 - True, although gunboats carrying AFM's can be a good counter to fighters, but now that the Alliance knows that they exist they will be better at countering them, or at least expect them.  And if the gunboats are carrying AFM's, they aren't carrying anti-matter close attack missiles to attack the opposing fleet. 
#3 - Very true, and the Alliance knows it now. 

A real limitation to the gunboats was the difficulty they had reloading them, and that's something I hadn't anticipated.  The ships trying to reload the gunboats had to drop their drive fields, and with their limited cargo transfer capabilities it took forever to reload the damned things.  As it was, the Lothari didn't have enough time to reload them completely. 

Kurt

[nuclearslurpee]

I suspect those two fleets were slightly in favour of the Lothari by cost and that was a pyrhhic victory gutting the Lothari fleet and they will find it harder to replace than the alliance , if they win every battle that way they lose the war badly

From what I've read in SF fiction, this is usually how things go. The attacker always take heavy losses against a prepared WP defense and unless they have a massive economic advantage, or an ace in the hole like the first in-universe SBM-HAWKS or a closed WP into the enemy capital system (Phoenix Campaign says hello!), the attacker will either have to settle for and consolidate limited gains or will run out of steam and get pushed back to zero or worse after some time.

[Andrew]

With smaller fleets and open space battles you can get decisive victories in open combat, particularly with a tech advantage. A fleet with a range advantage can inflict one sided casualties and if their opponents do not have enough ships to get to close range the loss rate can be very one sided but that has to be the right tech advantage to work out. Smaller fleets can also contribute to impressive victories as with initiative and firepower you may be able to cripple the enemies ability to fight , were larger fleets mean that each kill is a smaller proportion of the enemies ability to fire back

[StarshipCactus]

Damn, Admiral Tai-sa G’Tak didn't deserve that, he was a good guy. Hopefully the Alliance will send enough firepower to smash these guys and take the Homeworld or where ever they are going to keep the prisoners. Mount a good old rescue mission. Assuming the spooks don't kill all of them by then.

[Paul M]

The alliance ships in our campaign are optimized to destroy gunboats and it is the Wa that is the reaper.  24 HS of weapons 8 Wa or 6 F shows the huge effectiveness of the Wa (N beams should get a bonus to hit actually) and the 2 salvos of 16 sprint mode missiles is what does the gunboats in.  But it has taken several battles and hideous losses by the insane seals (in the view of the Shanirian's) to produce the gunboat killer.

If you haven't done the same change we made to the prototype gunboat they can't carry missiles.  The pGB has only 2x4 rows rather than 2x4 columns.  When the shanirian's developed the pGB I said that I wanted that as the Shanirian's are a lot more loss sensitive than bugs...  I also can't fathom why the pGB is like this when every advanced GB just adds columns so you would think the pGB just removes 2. 

Starslayer has also optimized his loadouts...he can likely give some pointers.  I have only started to deploy the pGB and a firm doctrine has not been developed.

The other thing is that is clear is that EM by fighters/gunboats is pointless as virtually any ship engaging them can negate it with their ECCM.  Though only on a squadron basis per ECCM system.  Fc is also a good gunboat killer and E/N beams leave them to be captured (useful to get the technology).  Firing either standard or capital missiles is only good for annoyance factors.

[Kurt (OP)]

The alliance ships in our campaign are optimized to destroy gunboats and it is the Wa that is the reaper.  24 HS of weapons 8 Wa or 6 F shows the huge effectiveness of the Wa (N beams should get a bonus to hit actually) and the 2 salvos of 16 sprint mode missiles is what does the gunboats in.  But it has taken several battles and hideous losses by the insane seals (in the view of the Shanirian's) to produce the gunboat killer.

If you haven't done the same change we made to the prototype gunboat they can't carry missiles.  The pGB has only 2x4 rows rather than 2x4 columns.  When the shanirian's developed the pGB I said that I wanted that as the Shanirian's are a lot more loss sensitive than bugs...  I also can't fathom why the pGB is like this when every advanced GB just adds columns so you would think the pGB just removes 2. 

Starslayer has also optimized his loadouts...he can likely give some pointers.  I have only started to deploy the pGB and a firm doctrine has not been developed.

The other thing is that is clear is that EM by fighters/gunboats is pointless as virtually any ship engaging them can negate it with their ECCM.  Though only on a squadron basis per ECCM system.  Fc is also a good gunboat killer and E/N beams leave them to be captured (useful to get the technology).  Firing either standard or capital missiles is only good for annoyance factors.

If I remember correctly, the Alliance has noted the effectiveness of the Wa as a gunboat killer.  And, because of the advent of anti-matter warheads, ships designed to escort carriers and capital ships are increasingly equipped with Wa as it is effective out to medium ranges and does a good amount of damage.  Also, they are now aware of the AFM, although they did not get scans of it, unfortunately. 

[Kurt (OP)]

I suspect those two fleets were slightly in favour of the Lothari by cost and that was a pyrhhic victory gutting the Lothari fleet and they will find it harder to replace than the alliance , if they win every battle that way they lose the war badly

From what I've read in SF fiction, this is usually how things go. The attacker always take heavy losses against a prepared WP defense and unless they have a massive economic advantage, or an ace in the hole like the first in-universe SBM-HAWKS or a closed WP into the enemy capital system (Phoenix Campaign says hello!), the attacker will either have to settle for and consolidate limited gains or will run out of steam and get pushed back to zero or worse after some time.

Finding a closed warp point into an enemy's home system is the holy grail and is extremely unlikely.  And yet, it has happened in one form or another in many of my campaigns. 

[Paul M]

The Shanirian's, largely for cost reasons, stayed with the Ra as they thought there would always be a target for the missiles so the close range issue wasn't one more so as their ships carry E beams for close quarters fighting.  But the reports coming to them via their trade partners plus their military intel efforts forced the SCN to rethink this and swap over to the Wa for their ships...regardless of what it did to their budget.  But I can assure you the real gunboat killers of the insane seal's are their CAs...they just destroy the GBs in job lots.  Starslayer has been procrastinating about writing up the last battle...but I think I killed about 600 pGBs plus for the first time bug capital ships got hit hard...this is the first time our "alliance races" actually had a solid fleet and defenses...their fighters were not so effective but CSP is going to suffer big time when the capitals transit in and dump about 100 pGBs on the WP.  But the bug capitals also went down and this is really a first.

[Starslayer_D]

Initially my bugs carried a lot of reloads for their gunboats, to cover situations and so on... costing about 4k MCr for each SD for the magazine alone (more now with AAM).
But experience showed that launched gunboats, unlike in the fiction, usually didn't make it back anyway to reload. so each loadout is about only once.

Currently I had half my pGBs loaded with an AFM in Rack 1 and fL and 3* fRAAM in the other. The otehr ones just go with 2* fL and 6 fRAAM.

For true GB I would go with either 4* fL and 12 fRAAM. Use fL while closing in, and drop adn ripple fire at point blank range.
Or 16* fM-a. Or a defense setup with AFMs. DM-bs might also work, but a salvo of 16 only helps really vs corvettes.

On shipyard fleets.. i am by now trying to keep 12 SYs or MSs for each fleet, as 6 of eitehr just don#t cut it in terms of turnaround.

[StarshipCactus]

Does the Colonial Union have any avenues for expansion? Are they still exploring new space or are they just colonising the territory they already know?