Author Topic: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition  (Read 361443 times)

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Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #2145 on: September 04, 2021, 07:53:18 AM »
Would you be willing to put make a thread in the Mechanics forum where you test different Orbital Bombardment Support options so that we have hard data for Steve?
 

Offline ISN

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #2146 on: September 04, 2021, 09:45:20 AM »
I just noticed that the main armament on my ships has a higher hit chance against missiles (around 22%) than the dedicated PD turrets (around 15%) on the same ship. The lasers have a BFC with a range of 320,000 km and a tracking speed of 6250 km/s (the ships are slightly faster). The Gauss cannon turrets have a tracking speed of 20,000 km/s; their fire controls have a range of 64,000 km and a tracking speed of 20,000 km/s. Both are firing at 10,000 km in Final Defensive Fire mode. The lasers have ECCM, but the missiles they're targeting don't have ECM so that shouldn't matter. The missiles are size 6, move at 39,333 km/s, and have a maneuver rating of 13. The ships just performed a squadron jump but that should affect both equally. I've played around with the accuracy calculations a bit but I can't get the numbers to work out.

What size are your Gauss cannons? I can get these numbers to work out if I assume size-2 (33% base accuracy)

You're right -- I totally forgot about using reduced size Gauss cannons (although they're actually size-1.5 at 25% accuracy). That explains it, thanks.

Quote
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And how do you design your PD BFCs? Because clearly I'm doing something wrong with mine.

Your PD BFC looks fine, I would probably use 80,000 km range at this tech level if not 100,000 km but the exact best value is going to depend on your ship design principles. Always make sure you use the maximum tracking speed though, I am not sure if that is the case here.

I am using maximum tracking speed. I think I reduced the range of the BFCs because you get pretty sharp diminishing returns on range when firing at 10,000km -- going from 64,000km to 100,000km only changes the range multiplier from 0.84 to 0.9 while increasing the size of each BFC by 56%. But you're right that PD is probably not something I want to skimp on.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #2147 on: September 04, 2021, 10:13:06 AM »
First let me express my profound gratitude for considering 100 kT as a "smallish" force as is right and proper.

For both airborne and spaceborne fire support the hit chance is roughly the same as for your ground units, with the same target selection options as the heavy bombardment component. For airborne support the fighter pod types have variable damage/penetration depending on size and tech level so I will leave those alone, however for spaceborne support the effective damage per shot is 20x the square root of the weapon damage and the armor penetration is half this, e.g. for a 10cm railgun (1 damage per shot) we have 10 AP and 20 damage, while a 20cm railgun (4 damage per shot) deals 20 AP and 40 damage. These values are comparable to light and medium bombardment (LB and MB) components at racial attack 10 (which would be granted from researching 20cm railguns), which gives us a rough equivalency for comparisons.

Given a smallish 100 kT of forces on the ground, we might assume for sake of argument that these are 3x 25 kT tank brigades and a single 25 kT support brigade including HQ, supply vehicles, and medium artillery - this 3:1 ratio being implied as optimal by the officer promotions ratio. Assuming that roughly half of the HQ formation is logistics vehicles (rough calculations suggest this is not actually enough to sustain a month or so of campaigning by 75 kT of tanks, but let's assume it is), this implies some 12,000 tons of artillery or approximately 240 MB guns. Thus to bring equivalent firepower would require around ships in orbit totaling some 240x 20cm railguns. Recent behind-the-scenes ship design experience suggests that a reasonable amount of railguns of this size is perhaps 10x per 10,000 tons of ship, which could be more or less depending on your engine and armor policies, so to provide equivalent firepower to a 12 kT artillery force you need some 240,000-ish tons of naval vessels in orbit. If you like, reduce this to 180,000 since railguns fire four shots while artillery fires three, but the order of magnitude is not changing significantly here.

On one hand this seems quite inefficient - as it should be, ground units should be the most effective at ground combat particularly as they do not have much else to be good at. However, orbital bombardment does have a few advantages. On one hand it does not consume expensive ground-based GSP, maintenance supplies are not usually a serious bottleneck provided that a space empire has sufficient sources of duranium and gallicite particularly when the guns are only fired once every eight hours (effectively). By contrast GSP requires relatively scarce ground unit BPs to produce so is often a key constraint especially for an unprepared force. On the other hand, naval weapons need not be purpose-built for ground bombardment and you can simply loop in a spare battle fleet to shoot at tiny men on the ground if they happen to be in the area. Additionally, in the absence of STOs naval fire support cannot be killed by the enemy ground units unlike the artillery on the ground, so as a fight goes on the naval support element becomes progressively more powerful relative to the battle-damaged ground units and the contribution may be not insignificant.

I have focused on the fire support method of naval bombardment here, however there is also the option to bombard enemy ground units without coordination with the friendly ground units. I'm unclear on whether this happens every ground combat increment (8 hours) or at the weapon rate of fire; if the latter this is a fairly quick, though inaccurate and correspondingly MSP-expensive, way to reduce the enemy ground forces, though I think the collateral damage is likely to be much worse as each shot has a 1/3 chance to cause population damage instead. From the wiki I am not clear on if fire support operations cause this damage.

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I am using maximum tracking speed. I think I reduced the range of the BFCs because you get pretty sharp diminishing returns on range when firing at 10,000km -- going from 64,000km to 100,000km only changes the range multiplier from 0.84 to 0.9 while increasing the size of each BFC by 56%. But you're right that PD is probably not something I want to skimp on.

If you want to do math about it, the optimal value of the BFC range is going to depend on how many guns you have per BFC. If you have, say, 100 guns per BFC, then even a small improvement in BFC range will give a significant improvement in kill rate. Whereas if you have one BFC for a handful of guns, reducing the BFC size may allow you to fit another gun instead which will probably give more expected missile kills than a modest range increase. There is also the practical question of fitting a BFC to a specific ship class - you might be able to gain a few points of missile kill % by taking off 20 tons of fuel and pushing up BFC size by a small amount on one ship class, but maybe another class does not have that kind of room.

Generally I stick with 1x range multiplier for PD BFCs and don't think about it anymore.  ;)
 
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Offline Elminster

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #2148 on: September 04, 2021, 03:17:52 PM »
Code: [Select]
Accuracy = Aweap * [ (1 - Rt / Rfc) * (Vfc / Vt) * (1.0 + MTB) * 10 * (ECM - ECCM) ]
Hm, I have a problem with this formula. I'm good at math, but surely no expert, so I may have missed something.

The first thing to do (after putting the correct numbers in, of course) is to dissolve the brackets.
My problem is, when ECM and ECCM cancel each other out, say ECM = 20 and ECCM = 20.
That will result in a 0 for that bracket. Dissolving all other brackets will produce some other values which, in the end, would be multiplied by 0, resulting in an Accuracy of 0, regardless of the other values.

So, am I missing something, or is there a flaw in the formula?
 

Offline Andrew

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #2149 on: September 04, 2021, 03:28:39 PM »
The ECM/ECCM defaults to 1. So ECM Modifies it downwards to say 0.8 and if there is excess ECCM it stays at 1
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #2150 on: September 04, 2021, 04:59:07 PM »
Code: [Select]
Accuracy = Aweap * [ (1 - Rt / Rfc) * (Vfc / Vt) * (1.0 + MTB) * 10 * (ECM - ECCM) ]
Hm, I have a problem with this formula. I'm good at math, but surely no expert, so I may have missed something.

The first thing to do (after putting the correct numbers in, of course) is to dissolve the brackets.
My problem is, when ECM and ECCM cancel each other out, say ECM = 20 and ECCM = 20.
That will result in a 0 for that bracket. Dissolving all other brackets will produce some other values which, in the end, would be multiplied by 0, resulting in an Accuracy of 0, regardless of the other values.

So, am I missing something, or is there a flaw in the formula?

Oops, yes. There should be a minus sign, not a multiply sign. Correcting this above, the correct formula should be:

Code: [Select]
Accuracy = Aweap * [ (1 - Rt / Rfc) * (Vfc / Vt) * (1.0 + MTB) - 10 * (ECM - ECCM) ]
N.B. the factor of 10 is there since ECM and ECCM levels are taken as 1, 2, 3, ... rather than 10, 20, 30..., just to clarify.
 

Offline TMaekler

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #2151 on: September 05, 2021, 02:25:57 AM »
Just for fun sake:

The orbit of any object mainly depends on three factors:
a+b) The mass and speed of the object itself
c) The mass of the object in the center

Since planets have an excessive amount of mass shipping tons and tons of TN minerals around maybe isn't much of a thing. But I was wondering if anyone has ever done calculations of how much mass can be added (or subtracted) to any object until it will significantly modify the orbit of that object... ?!?
 

Offline El Pip

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #2152 on: September 05, 2021, 02:31:15 AM »
Words on orbital support and tonnage
A fine effort post and I believe I agree with the conclusion; orbital bombardment support is inefficient and not 'incredibly powerful', but with enough ships it can make a difference. This seems entirely reasonable from a game balance perspective, forcing the player to build up many millions of tons of ground forces is one of the biggest changes in C# Aurora and making orbiting ships too helpful would completely undermine that objective.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #2153 on: September 05, 2021, 10:54:59 PM »
Just for fun sake:

The orbit of any object mainly depends on three factors:
a+b) The mass and speed of the object itself
c) The mass of the object in the center

Since planets have an excessive amount of mass shipping tons and tons of TN minerals around maybe isn't much of a thing. But I was wondering if anyone has ever done calculations of how much mass can be added (or subtracted) to any object until it will significantly modify the orbit of that object... ?!?

This has been discussed numerous times in the context of moving asteroids with engines, but the same principles apply. Generally the understanding is that the mass of an asteroid is so large that human (or alien) constructions on the scale of Aurora cannot really affect them at all.

Consider an "small" asteroid (by Aurora standards) with a diameter of ~100 km. This is a volume of approximately 500,000 km^3, or more useful for dimensional analysis 5e14 m^3. A quick Google check suggests a rough estimate of asteroid density as 2 g/cm^3 which is equivalently 2 metric tons/m^3, so we can estimate the mass of our "small" asteroid as 1e15 tons.

In zeroes, that is 1,000,000,000,000,000 tons.

A billion tons of TNEs - an unrealistic amount to have on hand, really - would if dropped on this asteroid cause a change of 0.0001% in its mass, almost imperceptible in any case and certainly well below the quantified uncertainty in astronomical measurements of any given asteroid's orbital parameters.

In fairness there are many asteroids much smaller than this, at least according to people who are dreadfully intelligent and know much more than me about the subject, however in Aurora these are generally not modeled as they wouldn't be worth colonizing and - at the scale of the game - would not have any resources worth mentioning. An asteroid of, say, 1 km diameter would be small enough that dropping a billion tons of TNEs on its surface would have a noticeable effect (roughly doubling its mass, in fact), but I don't think we have any of those in the game.
 
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Offline TMaekler

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #2154 on: September 06, 2021, 02:19:25 AM »
This has been discussed numerous times in the context of moving asteroids with engines, but the same principles apply. Generally the understanding is that the mass of an asteroid is so large that human (or alien) constructions on the scale of Aurora cannot really affect them at all.

Consider an "small" asteroid (by Aurora standards) with a diameter of ~100 km. This is a volume of approximately 500,000 km^3, or more useful for dimensional analysis 5e14 m^3. A quick Google check suggests a rough estimate of asteroid density as 2 g/cm^3 which is equivalently 2 metric tons/m^3, so we can estimate the mass of our "small" asteroid as 1e15 tons.

In zeroes, that is 1,000,000,000,000,000 tons.

A billion tons of TNEs - an unrealistic amount to have on hand, really - would if dropped on this asteroid cause a change of 0.0001% in its mass, almost imperceptible in any case and certainly well below the quantified uncertainty in astronomical measurements of any given asteroid's orbital parameters.

In fairness there are many asteroids much smaller than this, at least according to people who are dreadfully intelligent and know much more than me about the subject, however in Aurora these are generally not modeled as they wouldn't be worth colonizing and - at the scale of the game - would not have any resources worth mentioning. An asteroid of, say, 1 km diameter would be small enough that dropping a billion tons of TNEs on its surface would have a noticeable effect (roughly doubling its mass, in fact), but I don't think we have any of those in the game.
Thanks for the info. I thought it might be slim - but that is not even slim... so biggest change in terms of mass is when we terraform atmospheres onto planets. Though I imagine even that might not be that much mass compared to the solid bodies of planets... .
 

Offline TMaekler

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #2155 on: September 08, 2021, 05:38:58 AM »
I was wondering if empty posts in the command hierarchy are always filled up before assignments for ship commanders or if it is possible to set the priority of ship commanders so high that they get restaffed before equal rank command posts?
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #2156 on: September 08, 2021, 09:57:20 AM »
I was wondering if empty posts in the command hierarchy are always filled up before assignments for ship commanders or if it is possible to set the priority of ship commanders so high that they get restaffed before equal rank command posts?

As usual there is a dev post on the matter:

Relevant quote pull:
Quote
After ship commanders are assigned, the non-command positions are assigned.

There is also a final step which assigns ship commanders with Reaction/Engineering/Tactical skills and AFAIK can pull commanders from the auxiliary posts. Basically there will never be an officer in an auxiliary post if there is an open command for which they are qualified. Even with the priority system this cannot be changed unless you fill all ship commands, either automatically or by divine intervention.

 

Offline ArcWolf

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #2157 on: September 08, 2021, 10:08:57 PM »
Question regarding Infantry units "Ground Capabilities", specifically "Extreme Pressure" & "Extreme Temperature". What exactly counts as "Extreme"?

My initial thought is anything that results in a CC > 0, is this correct or am I missing something? Thanks in advance.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #2158 on: September 08, 2021, 10:11:39 PM »
Question regarding Infantry units "Ground Capabilities", specifically "Extreme Pressure" & "Extreme Temperature". What exactly counts as "Extreme"?

My initial thought is anything that results in a CC > 0, is this correct or am I missing something? Thanks in advance.

Your initial thought is correct. The environment screen of a planet is a good place to look if you are specifically gearing up for a particular planet.

For your examples, if there is a CC cost associated with the temperature or the atmospheric pressure then you'll want their corresponding capability or suffer half effectiveness for each area.
 
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Offline TMaekler

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #2159 on: September 09, 2021, 01:30:58 AM »
I was wondering if empty posts in the command hierarchy are always filled up before assignments for ship commanders or if it is possible to set the priority of ship commanders so high that they get restaffed before equal rank command posts?

As usual there is a dev post on the matter:

Relevant quote pull:
Quote
After ship commanders are assigned, the non-command positions are assigned.

There is also a final step which assigns ship commanders with Reaction/Engineering/Tactical skills and AFAIK can pull commanders from the auxiliary posts. Basically there will never be an officer in an auxiliary post if there is an open command for which they are qualified. Even with the priority system this cannot be changed unless you fill all ship commands, either automatically or by divine intervention.
Thanks. Because of that posting I asked, because I understood it in a way that it only talks about the command assignments on ships, but not in the admin superstructure - and I was wondering if they get prioritized over the ship commander assignments. It shouldn’t be an issue as long as all admin commands have a higher rank than ship captain - but what happens if an admin command has an equal (or even lower) rank than that for a certain type of ship class? Who gets assigned first? The admin command or the higher ranked ship commander?