Author Topic: v1.13.0 Bugs Thread  (Read 89929 times)

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Offline Entaro

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Re: v1.13.0 Bugs Thread
« Reply #555 on: November 26, 2021, 03:33:16 PM »
Not sure if this is a bug, but this is definitely not the correct logic of the AI ​​behavior:
During the war with NPR, the enemy fleet flew up to my planet and did absolutely nothing, allowing my fleet to approach and shoot it with missiles. Shoot a lot of time and destroy everything.

The class of ships - the same one that fired energy weapons at my colony - but they did not try to use them for point defense against my missiles.
They did not try to get close to me, although my huge ships cannot be overlooked, did not try to escape. They were just in orbit around my colony while I destroyed them.

Details here:
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=12838.15
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: v1.13.0 Bugs Thread
« Reply #556 on: November 26, 2021, 04:50:19 PM »
I have had something similar happen which was documented in my 1.12 AAR.

My best guess as to the cause is that relations with the NPR somehow dropped enough that they felt obligated to shoot at you (blow up a colony, destroy a few picket ships, whatever), and then in the intervening time relations returned to a neutral enough value that they no longer considered the player hostile. However, when the player then fires at the NPR the NPR seems unable to register that the player is hostile to them, and respond appropriately, until another construction increment passes and they can reassess the relationship status.

It really is a big hole in the NPR logic and very easily exploited to score an early battle victory, and there is not much a player can do to avoid this exploit since the NPR-player relationship is opaque when unfriendly.
 
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Offline Entaro

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Re: v1.13.0 Bugs Thread
« Reply #557 on: November 26, 2021, 05:50:27 PM »
I have had something similar happen which was documented in my 1.12 AAR.

My best guess as to the cause is that relations with the NPR somehow dropped enough that they felt obligated to shoot at you (blow up a colony, destroy a few picket ships, whatever), and then in the intervening time relations returned to a neutral enough value that they no longer considered the player hostile. However, when the player then fires at the NPR the NPR seems unable to register that the player is hostile to them, and respond appropriately, until another construction increment passes and they can reassess the relationship status.

It really is a big hole in the NPR logic and very easily exploited to score an early battle victory, and there is not much a player can do to avoid this exploit since the NPR-player relationship is opaque when unfriendly.
Yes, there was a report that the relationship had become neutral some time before they arrived.
It turns out that I myself, without knowing it, used the exploit ... sad (But, I hope this helps to draw attention to this bug :)

But in this case, it is not clear why they are not "at war" with me, they have become in the orbit of my colony for a long time. Perhaps they sent this fleet there even before they "declared neutrality" and that caused the bug? Maybe they wanted to destroy my colony, but did not have time to make this decision?)
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: v1.13.0 Bugs Thread
« Reply #558 on: November 26, 2021, 07:00:11 PM »
But in this case, it is not clear why they are not "at war" with me, they have become in the orbit of my colony for a long time. Perhaps they sent this fleet there even before they "declared neutrality" and that caused the bug? Maybe they wanted to destroy my colony, but did not have time to make this decision?)

Yes. Basically they became annoyed enough at your presence in "their" territory that they decided to shoot at you, then once you were no longer in their territory they calmed down and decided the humans were not so bad. Then they got shot at, but persisted in believing that humans are not so bad for the mandatory 5 day waiting period.

Aurora is weird.  :P
 
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Offline Entaro

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Re: v1.13.0 Bugs Thread
« Reply #559 on: November 26, 2021, 10:20:34 PM »
Not sure if this is a bug, given the mechanics of the game, but ...
Found that NPR was flying near my fleet with his small fleet. With an interval of an hour or 3 hours, it flies into the range of my missiles for several million km, and then immediately flies away. I don't know if this is an attempt to simulate tactics so that I spend missiles, or he simply does not see me at a distance of more than 70 million km, and cannot remember where I was just when he retreats, but ...
In general, I chose an interval of 8 hours. And after 8 hours the enemy fleet was right next to mine, which allowed me to easily destroy it. It looks like the AI ​​is processing fleet movement decisions no more often than my time frame ...? Sadly, I will have to take this feature into account and try not to use it, but the enemy fleet flying on the edge of the range of my missiles is enraging.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: v1.13.0 Bugs Thread
« Reply #560 on: November 27, 2021, 07:02:39 AM »
Okay.

I have looked over the screenshots for the last bug report. It looks to me like everything is probably working correctly "under the hood", as the number of penetrations seems to be reasonable given the intel reporting. The issue seems to be that the number of hits reported is a misnomer, and should more accurately be labeled "Number of units hit" and this number is capped to the number of units in the formation/element. Basically, there are no hidden mechanics or gameplay bugs, the error is in the UI which displays this information to the player.

The number of hits is reported, rather than the number of units destroyed. You don't have exact knowledge of the number of enemy units, at least until the battle has been going on for quite a while, so this reflects the claims of your own forces, not the 'true' situation. It is similar to what happens in reality where multiple sources may claim the same 'kill'.
 
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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: v1.13.0 Bugs Thread
« Reply #561 on: November 27, 2021, 07:05:33 AM »
I have had something similar happen which was documented in my 1.12 AAR.

My best guess as to the cause is that relations with the NPR somehow dropped enough that they felt obligated to shoot at you (blow up a colony, destroy a few picket ships, whatever), and then in the intervening time relations returned to a neutral enough value that they no longer considered the player hostile. However, when the player then fires at the NPR the NPR seems unable to register that the player is hostile to them, and respond appropriately, until another construction increment passes and they can reassess the relationship status.

It really is a big hole in the NPR logic and very easily exploited to score an early battle victory, and there is not much a player can do to avoid this exploit since the NPR-player relationship is opaque when unfriendly.

I can't find this bug. If you fire on an NPR, they will declare you hostile immediately. There may be a situation, as I suspect happened in the original report, where an NPR turns hostile but won't fire on a population without STOs. Some NPRs will avoid planetary bombardment in favour of ground attack.
 
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Offline Entaro

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Re: v1.13.0 Bugs Thread
« Reply #562 on: November 27, 2021, 12:01:06 PM »
I can't find this bug. If you fire on an NPR, they will declare you hostile immediately. There may be a situation, as I suspect happened in the original report, where an NPR turns hostile but won't fire on a population without STOs. Some NPRs will avoid planetary bombardment in favour of ground attack.
If you have time, attach it to your post above - your save in the middle of the battle.

The enemy fleet was over my planet and did nothing. I shot him with rockets, and there was no reaction to this. Generally. No attempt to fly away, no attempt to get close to attack.

I can list a number of other things that may not be bugs, but this is definitely what is a flaw in the AI ​​logic:
1. It seemed to me that the template of the main ships of the enemy for 30 years has not changed. These are all the same ships, with the same tonnage, speed, and weak railgun armament. But the enemy built several dozen more of just such ships.
2. Being armed with railguns, this type of ships did not try to use it against missiles.
In principle, this can be explained logically - if they do not have sensors that can see my missiles ... But this is rather stupid.
If there are no such sensors on this ship, what prevents the AI ​​from adding to the fleet consisting of such ships - several ships capable of detecting incoming missiles?
3. The civilization with which I am at war does not have any missiles at all. Neither anti-ship nor anti-missile. This allows me to destroy their ships from a distance just by shooting at targets. The only "difficulty" I face is to calculate the number of missiles so as not to waste extra ones.
If only they used their railguns for defensive fire against my missiles ... but that doesn't happen either.
4. Well, with the logic of the division of the AI ​​fleets, something needs to be done ... Perhaps I could not have destroyed their entire fleet together (I would have run out of missiles and my slow rocket platforms would not have escaped), but I could easily deal with several parts of their fleet.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: v1.13.0 Bugs Thread
« Reply #563 on: November 27, 2021, 12:01:44 PM »
I can't find this bug. If you fire on an NPR, they will declare you hostile immediately. There may be a situation, as I suspect happened in the original report, where an NPR turns hostile but won't fire on a population without STOs. Some NPRs will avoid planetary bombardment in favour of ground attack.

What happened to me in my 1.12 game was:
  • NPR gets mad for some reason and blows up a few of my JP monitor ships.
  • After a bit, I get a notification that the NPR now considers me neutral again.
  • Some short time later, as my fleets arrive on the scene I engage the NPRs in a series of battles. Despite having multiple of their fleets fired upon and destroyed by my railgun-armed ships, the NPR does not fire back - and they assuredly had sufficient opportunity to do so.
  • Once the construction increment ticked over, the next NPR fleet I engaged fired back as expected.
If you can tolerate reading my admittedly long-winded writing, the original account of these "battles" can be found in my AAR thread here. Again, it is a 1.12 game so not the current version but Entaro reports something quite similar so I suspect the bug still exists in 1.13. Seems like a tricky one to track down but hopefully having more information helps. I do want to note that in this campaign I have not build any STOs, nor has the NPR even come near any of my populations since they initially opened fire on my ships.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2021, 12:03:34 PM by nuclearslurpee »
 
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Offline Entaro

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Re: v1.13.0 Bugs Thread
« Reply #564 on: November 27, 2021, 12:04:25 PM »
If you can tolerate reading my admittedly long-winded writing, the original account of the battle can be found in my AAR thread here. Again, it is a 1.12 game so not the current version but Entaro reports something quite similar so I suspect the bug still exists in 1.13. Seems like a tricky one to track down but hopefully having more information helps. I do want to note that in this campaign I have not build any STOs, nor has the NPR even come near any of my populations since they initially opened fire on my ships.
It seems to me that this error is very easy to track down, just take the save in the middle of the battle from the person who encountered this error and load it :)
The only thing - I'm not sure if the building time counter doesn't reset after loading the game.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: v1.13.0 Bugs Thread
« Reply #565 on: November 27, 2021, 01:30:17 PM »
I can't find this bug. If you fire on an NPR, they will declare you hostile immediately. There may be a situation, as I suspect happened in the original report, where an NPR turns hostile but won't fire on a population without STOs. Some NPRs will avoid planetary bombardment in favour of ground attack.
If you have time, attach it to your post above - your save in the middle of the battle.

The enemy fleet was over my planet and did nothing. I shot him with rockets, and there was no reaction to this. Generally. No attempt to fly away, no attempt to get close to attack.

I can list a number of other things that may not be bugs, but this is definitely what is a flaw in the AI ​​logic:
1. It seemed to me that the template of the main ships of the enemy for 30 years has not changed. These are all the same ships, with the same tonnage, speed, and weak railgun armament. But the enemy built several dozen more of just such ships.
2. Being armed with railguns, this type of ships did not try to use it against missiles.
In principle, this can be explained logically - if they do not have sensors that can see my missiles ... But this is rather stupid.
If there are no such sensors on this ship, what prevents the AI ​​from adding to the fleet consisting of such ships - several ships capable of detecting incoming missiles?
3. The civilization with which I am at war does not have any missiles at all. Neither anti-ship nor anti-missile. This allows me to destroy their ships from a distance just by shooting at targets. The only "difficulty" I face is to calculate the number of missiles so as not to waste extra ones.
If only they used their railguns for defensive fire against my missiles ... but that doesn't happen either.
4. Well, with the logic of the division of the AI ​​fleets, something needs to be done ... Perhaps I could not have destroyed their entire fleet together (I would have run out of missiles and my slow rocket platforms would not have escaped), but I could easily deal with several parts of their fleet.

The problem is that if was a common issue, it would have been raised and fixed by now. I have no idea why the AI in your game is not using its railguns to fire against inbound missiles, when it works fine in my games and apparently other games. Are you using long time jumps perhaps so the missiles pass through the AI sensor range in a single increment?

A beam-only strategy is fine. As you play more games, you will learn about the strategic weaknesses of missiles, despite their short-term tactical advantages.
 
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Offline Entaro

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Re: v1.13.0 Bugs Thread
« Reply #566 on: November 27, 2021, 01:41:27 PM »

The problem is that if was a common issue, it would have been raised and fixed by now. I have no idea why the AI in your game is not using its railguns to fire against inbound missiles, when it works fine in my games and apparently other games. Are you using long time jumps perhaps so the missiles pass through the AI sensor range in a single increment?

A beam-only strategy is fine. As you play more games, you will learn about the strategic weaknesses of missiles, despite their short-term tactical advantages.
I understood. Perhaps the problem is in my game, precisely with my enemy, who, due to the fact that I found him too early, or for some other reason, did not include in his base warships or active scanners against missiles, or the point function itself protection ... it's weird. I will try to fight other AIs and write if everything goes well.
By the way, this AI has a ship type capable of shooting down missiles and using point defense. The problem is with only one class of ships.

No, I use 5 second time intervals during combat and my missiles approaching.

As for the beam ships - I understand. In fact, if they used their 17 * 4 railguns on each of their beam ships, including for point defense, it would be very difficult for me. I suspect in that case, I would simply run out of missiles ... in which case it would be a winning strategy from the point of view of AI.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: v1.13.0 Bugs Thread
« Reply #567 on: November 27, 2021, 01:42:26 PM »
I can't find this bug. If you fire on an NPR, they will declare you hostile immediately. There may be a situation, as I suspect happened in the original report, where an NPR turns hostile but won't fire on a population without STOs. Some NPRs will avoid planetary bombardment in favour of ground attack.

What happened to me in my 1.12 game was:
  • NPR gets mad for some reason and blows up a few of my JP monitor ships.
  • After a bit, I get a notification that the NPR now considers me neutral again.
  • Some short time later, as my fleets arrive on the scene I engage the NPRs in a series of battles. Despite having multiple of their fleets fired upon and destroyed by my railgun-armed ships, the NPR does not fire back - and they assuredly had sufficient opportunity to do so.
  • Once the construction increment ticked over, the next NPR fleet I engaged fired back as expected.
If you can tolerate reading my admittedly long-winded writing, the original account of these "battles" can be found in my AAR thread here. Again, it is a 1.12 game so not the current version but Entaro reports something quite similar so I suspect the bug still exists in 1.13. Seems like a tricky one to track down but hopefully having more information helps. I do want to note that in this campaign I have not build any STOs, nor has the NPR even come near any of my populations since they initially opened fire on my ships.

I'm almost 100% certain you will have checked this, but I need to ask anyway :)  I assume the attacked NPR units were warships and had weapons with sufficient range to engage you?

The mechanics for this are based on diplomatic points. When you inflict damage on a ship it lowers the diplomacy points. If the current level is still above -101 post-damage, it reduces to that point and declares war (changes the status of your race to hostile). The only exception in the code is a situation where the NPR has no alien race record, but that is more of a bug-check than anticipating a real situation.

Its odd that a construction cycle fixes things because there is nothing related to combat or damage in political terms during that phase. That only changes during combat phases. It is also a rare bug, because otherwise this would get reported a LOT. Some very weird combination of circumstances must be in play. Can you think of anything else unusual about the situation?

Also, if it happens again, please can you save the DB.
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: v1.13.0 Bugs Thread
« Reply #568 on: November 27, 2021, 02:03:58 PM »
I'm almost 100% certain you will have checked this, but I need to ask anyway :)  I assume the attacked NPR units were warships and had weapons with sufficient range to engage you?

Yes. Missiles and 10cm + 15cm lasers against my 10cm + 15cm railguns, so range would not be a problem for the NPR fleets. Most of the ships were armed aside from a jump cruiser class (Kiev) and one stabilisation ship (Svobodny).

Quote
The mechanics for this are based on diplomatic points. When you inflict damage on a ship it lowers the diplomacy points. If the current level is still above -101 post-damage, it reduces to that point and declares war (changes the status of your race to hostile). The only exception in the code is a situation where the NPR has no alien race record, but that is more of a bug-check than anticipating a real situation.

Its odd that a construction cycle fixes things because there is nothing related to combat or damage in political terms during that phase. That only changes during combat phases. It is also a rare bug, because otherwise this would get reported a LOT. Some very weird combination of circumstances must be in play. Can you think of anything else unusual about the situation?

The closest thing to "unusual" I can think of, besides what I already described, is that the first fleet I engaged came through a jump point - I initially thought they were suffering from some extremely long jump shock. However the next two battles before the construction tick were in open space and exhibited the same behavior.

Quote
Also, if it happens again, please can you save the DB.

I'll do my best. Looking over my post history I realize I never filed a bug report since this was in a 1.12 game after 1.13 had been released, but I will try to save the DB next time even if this happens in my 1.12 campaign in case it is still useful.
 
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Offline Entaro

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Re: v1.13.0 Bugs Thread
« Reply #569 on: November 27, 2021, 02:11:50 PM »
I'm almost 100% certain you will have checked this, but I need to ask anyway :)  I assume the attacked NPR units were warships and had weapons with sufficient range to engage you?

Also, if it happens again, please can you save the DB.
In my case, these were warships, had weapons, but did not have sufficient range to attack my ships (but could attack the planet, or try to get closer, or try to retreat).

In my case, the database is saved, in addition: