Author Topic: C# Suggestions  (Read 273362 times)

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Offline Barkhorn

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1200 on: December 23, 2020, 12:51:05 AM »
I love this idea.  I've always somewhat been annoyed by games like Civilization where you can see the whole tech tree in the stone age and plan out your development from pottery to microchips.  Hammurabi didn't sit around planning like "hmm, I'll get bronze working now, then writing so I can start building libraries.  By ~1500AD I should be making ~600 science per turn and working on acoustics".
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1201 on: December 23, 2020, 12:52:07 AM »
I understand your concerns and that was why I suggested an option at setup to use this or not.  However I do believe what you characterize as a player getting randomly screwed is actually how things go IRL.  Today I just happened to be browsing through a list of failed aircraft, both civilian and military that were designed and built with high hopes and just didn't work out as planned.

Something that we are all probably familiar with today that speaks to this is all of the vaccines that are under development some of which are now out for use but some of which are failed and no longer being pursued.  I don't see this as the player being randomly screwed I just see this as more of a situation that exists where you don't know exactly what the return will be on the research path you choose and you will either live with pushing down a certain line of research even though there may be a better one or more broadly pushing several paths to get a feel for which might be the best way to go this particular time. 

If research and development was as cut and dried as we find it in games than every country would field basically the same tanks, planes and ships.  This is not the case because real research has a huge degree of uncertainty and results are often not what was anticipated when the project was begun.

One of the tricky things about a game, even a "realistic" one, is that real life itself actually makes a terrible game. This is because a game is at the end of the day meant to be fun, while real life has no such developer's mandate and no such need to sell copies/pad download numbers. I don't believe that for most players, failing at random would be considered "fun" - if anything, random elements in games work best when they make a game unpredictable and present challenges for a player to overcome - Precursors are an excellent example of this.

As a player however, Aurora gives you considerable leeway for roleplay and that means you can have the freedom and flexibility to play in such a way that you get a mix of successful and failed component and ship designs if you choose to play more experimentally instead of seeking the purely optimal designs. Sure, you can just build every ship with 50% engine mass and railguns, or lock onto a whole-hog carrier + missile bomber doctrine which is proven to be highly effective, but where's the fun in that? (Rhetorical question; for many people this is fun and they are very happy with it. Weirdos...)

There are really quite a lot of variables in Aurora to design with, so certainly it's possible to design and build many "failed" designs in the process of finding a good balance of different components or even the doctrine of the designs. In my current campaign I ran into an aggressive NPR very early and had to wage a tense defense with my starting ship designs and insufficient logistics to support them. Notably my mixed torpedo bomber / Gauss fighters ran into numerous problems due to a combination of superior enemy tech (the NPR invested a lot of RP into shields) and, uh, poor naval doctrine (also known as PEBKAC) and were ineffective. Because of this, my next generation of carrier fighters will be designed very differently, as my initial designs did not work out as well as planned or hoped for (much like, incidentally, the IRL British carrier aircraft they were based on).

The difference here is that as a player of a game, I can recognize where my plans failed and devise an approach to correct those failures. The research system in Aurora lacks that capability in the sense that it exists in real life. In reality, if a new technology or vehicle doesn't work out, the researchers learn from how that technology performed and figure out what needs to be fixed in the next designs. In Aurora we don't have that aspect in the research mechanic itself, and adding a random modifier doesn't give that either - if my tech fails, I can't learn anything from it, all I can do is roll the dice again (for the low, low price of another 5,000 RP).
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 12:54:59 AM by nuclearslurpee »
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1202 on: December 23, 2020, 05:35:14 AM »
This is an idea that would probably take too much work for Steve and may not be well received, however I just wanted to throw it out there.  I have seen many posts about weapons systems that are only useful for roleplaying and similarly if you are really trying to win in the most efficient way you research these techs and build these ships etc.

What if there was a small but significant amount of RNG put into the various techs at the start of every game.  The idea being that in one gameplay the lasers might well be the way to go, however the next time with the same exact setup it may be plasma or mesons etc.  The player wouldn't know before actually doing the research how effective any one weapon system would be in that particular game requiring one to experiment and find a different path each game.

I think this would be great for roleplaying as well, those who like to assign different preferences to different groups in the multiplayer starts would no longer feel constricted by considerations like well this isn't right because now this group has the weakest weapon system because you wouldn't know beforehand who had what.

I know this would be very difficult as a range would need to be arrived at for each system so that the weapons were not useless on the bottom end and not superpowered on the top end.  This would have to be balanced enough however that the value of the systems would change in relation to each other depending on where they were assigned in the range when the game was generated.

Perhaps a check box could be added at game setup for those that preferred the current system as opposed to this proposal.

In my opinion it would make allot more sense if each and individual component would have a small random variation of its efficiency for every parameter when researched. If you research a size 10 engine then its fuel efficiency will vary with +/- 10% its power will vary with +/- 10%. If you are no happy with the component you have to spend more research point to perhaps get a better one.

In addition to this you cold then increase research project by allowing more time to be invested to increase the chance for a better more effective component such as if you use two times the RP you are sure to end up with 0-10% more efficiency rather than -10% to 10% variation.

I would understand if this would be problematic for some people as they MUST have ships being exactly the same in some respect which might be problematic with this rules change. If could be optional, but I'm no fan of optional rules.

Personally I would like for research to be a bit less certain of the final result and you simply will have to live with the results.

I also think that it is not super realistic that a size 1 component takes half the time to research from a s size 2 component. I think there should be more of a logarithmic scale to research times of components in most circumstances.
 
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Offline spartacus

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1203 on: December 23, 2020, 10:27:15 AM »
I am glad some people see some merit to this idea or a variation of it.  I must not have been clear in my original post the idea was not to make some tech lines completely ineffective.  Just to alter the balance changing which ones were better.  As Aurora stands now it is very winnable even when utilizing inferior techs, many have roleplayed this and still come out on top, and I wouldn't want this to change.  The point to this being that no one wants a game where the roll of the dice at the beginning determines whether or not you win or lose.

For me with a lot of games some of the first play throughs are the most fun just because you don't know what is the best way to go and there is a lot of experimenting to find out which ways are good for what you are trying to do.  This idea was a way to perhaps extend that early joy of discovery and newness throughout the time playing the game.  I know we can pretend we don't know and roleplay inferior paths to increase the challenge and that is fine, however I guess maybe I am just not as good at pretending as some because I always know what I really know to be true. 

To borrow from the season I like to look at research results like Christmas presents and they are always much more fun when what is inside is a surprise instead of knowing what you will get every time over and over again.

I would be open to any system that could replicate this type of experience so I can see some merit to the idea Jorgen_CAB had about shifting this to the components, I am not a programmer and don't know which way would be harder for Steve to change the game.  As I said originally I am afraid that any of this would be too much effort and require a major reworking of the game. 

To sum up for me it would just be fun to sit down at the beginning and have some mystery every game to the choices I would make at the beginning of the game.  I realize that this would not be for everyone but I think it would appeal to more than just me alone and for those that aren't interested I see nothing wrong with the way anyone chooses to play the game as long as they have fun doing it.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1204 on: December 23, 2020, 12:18:30 PM »
In my opinion it would make allot more sense if each and individual component would have a small random variation of its efficiency for every parameter when researched. If you research a size 10 engine then its fuel efficiency will vary with +/- 10% its power will vary with +/- 10%. If you are no happy with the component you have to spend more research point to perhaps get a better one.

In addition to this you cold then increase research project by allowing more time to be invested to increase the chance for a better more effective component such as if you use two times the RP you are sure to end up with 0-10% more efficiency rather than -10% to 10% variation.

I would understand if this would be problematic for some people as they MUST have ships being exactly the same in some respect which might be problematic with this rules change. If could be optional, but I'm no fan of optional rules.

Personally I would like for research to be a bit less certain of the final result and you simply will have to live with the results.

I also think that it is not super realistic that a size 1 component takes half the time to research from a s size 2 component. I think there should be more of a logarithmic scale to research times of components in most circumstances.

This would be a much more reasonable system. Instead of crippling entire research paths through dice rolls this works on an individual component level and should broadly average out over time and many components, which should provide some interesting flavor and design decisions at a fairly small level, also encouraging a larger variety of components perhaps even with the same set of techs. Additionally since player and NPR research work differently this would not affect the NPRs negatively which is great.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1205 on: December 23, 2020, 02:24:01 PM »
Option to disable CMCs for those planned economy enthusiasts
 
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Offline Garfunkel

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1206 on: December 24, 2020, 04:27:06 AM »
That research thing probably deserves a thread of its own where it can be hashed out further as it is a complex topic.

Option to disable CMCs for those planned economy enthusiasts
Are they not disabled together with shipping lines?
 

Offline Droll

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1207 on: December 24, 2020, 04:31:26 AM »
Option to disable CMCs for those planned economy enthusiasts
Are they not disabled together with shipping lines?

Nop. I'm playing a no civie game right now and they are building their CMCs regardless.
 
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Offline spartacus

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1208 on: December 24, 2020, 08:03:32 AM »
That research thing probably deserves a thread of its own where it can be hashed out further as it is a complex topic.


Admittedly I am biased, but I do think it is an interesting concept that could potentially add a lot of flavor to the game for a lot of people.  Steve would really need to comment on it's viability however before people get all worked up about it.  It seems to be more polarizing, at least to some, than I thought it would be and if it is simply unworkable or Steve is not interested in it at all then there is no real reason to pursue or argue about it.
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1209 on: December 24, 2020, 12:49:11 PM »
Option to disable CMCs for those planned economy enthusiasts
Are they not disabled together with shipping lines?

Nop. I'm playing a no civie game right now and they are building their CMCs regardless.

 - Seconded. Can confirm that this is the case.  :)
 

Offline db48x

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1210 on: December 24, 2020, 01:22:02 PM »
In my opinion it would make allot more sense if each and individual component would have a small random variation of its efficiency for every parameter when researched. If you research a size 10 engine then its fuel efficiency will vary with +/- 10% its power will vary with +/- 10%. If you are no happy with the component you have to spend more research point to perhaps get a better one.

That's an interesting idea, but I fear that it's too readily exploitable. Players of a certain mindset would feel compelled to simply reroll every component they design until they get one that has the +10% bonus.

Perhaps instead, the formulas for component abilities should have an extra modifier that is randomized per-game. This modifier would apply equally to all components that have the same characteristics, so a boring action like rerolling would never help. It would also be predictable, so once you've figured it out you can take it into consideration.

A concrete example might help. Currently, the fuel consumption of an engine is determined by a formula: SQRT(10/Engine Size in HS). What if the formula was SQRT(10/Engine Size in HS) + 0.2 * sin(?*x+?), where ? and ? are random parameters choosen at game start and saved in the database. This would give some engines sizes a small bonus and other engine sizes a small penalty, and you wouldn't know which ahead of time.

I'm still not sure that this would be sufficiently interesting, but it would eliminate the compulsion.

I also think that it is not super realistic that a size 1 component takes half the time to research from a s size 2 component. I think there should be more of a logarithmic scale to research times of components in most circumstances.

This I can get behind. Military HQ research times get really ridiculous really quickly, since the HQ size is the primary factor.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1211 on: December 24, 2020, 01:27:01 PM »
I'm also dubious as to why above a certain HQ size the unit size stays the same. Is it to avoid large HQs getting targetted easily?
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1212 on: December 24, 2020, 02:19:49 PM »
In my opinion it would make allot more sense if each and individual component would have a small random variation of its efficiency for every parameter when researched. If you research a size 10 engine then its fuel efficiency will vary with +/- 10% its power will vary with +/- 10%. If you are no happy with the component you have to spend more research point to perhaps get a better one.

That's an interesting idea, but I fear that it's too readily exploitable. Players of a certain mindset would feel compelled to simply reroll every component they design until they get one that has the +10% bonus.

Perhaps instead, the formulas for component abilities should have an extra modifier that is randomized per-game. This modifier would apply equally to all components that have the same characteristics, so a boring action like rerolling would never help. It would also be predictable, so once you've figured it out you can take it into consideration.

A concrete example might help. Currently, the fuel consumption of an engine is determined by a formula: SQRT(10/Engine Size in HS). What if the formula was SQRT(10/Engine Size in HS) + 0.2 * sin(?*x+?), where ? and ? are random parameters choosen at game start and saved in the database. This would give some engines sizes a small bonus and other engine sizes a small penalty, and you wouldn't know which ahead of time.

I'm still not sure that this would be sufficiently interesting, but it would eliminate the compulsion.

I think a deterministic approach like that would be more annoying than interesting, given that in many cases certain component sizes are standard for good reasons, e.g. size 25 for commercial engines until the player starts bumping up the size tech (and then usually size 40, 60, etc.), and even past that I wouldn't want to be constantly tweaking my engine designs +/- 1 HS just to dodge a poor modifier. Gauss cannons are another example where the sizes remain quite fixed. I suppose you can consider more factors than just size but then it's just complicated.

On the other hand, I don't see much of an "exploit" here. Major components like big engines, large weapons, etc. are quite expensive to research so if anything rerolling these becomes a significant game decision. On the other hand rerolling a smaller component I don't think is problematic, after all you can issue a specification for a sensor or fighter engine with X, Y, Z specifications to five different companies and get five different designs to test.

Maybe a reasonable check here is that the +/- 10% (or other value) applies separately to each performance characteristic. So an engine has a separate roll for each of EP, fuel efficiency, power modifier, ... or a laser has separate rolls for power, recharge/ROF, range, ... and in this case you can even for game balance purposes add a constraint that the net randomness averages out to +/- 0% so you get for example two engines that have the same total performance for their tech, but one may be faster and another more fuel-efficient. This makes "better" components a subjective judgment and again rerolling becomes a strategic decision rather than an "optimize nao" button.

Quote
I also think that it is not super realistic that a size 1 component takes half the time to research from a s size 2 component. I think there should be more of a logarithmic scale to research times of components in most circumstances.

This I can get behind. Military HQ research times get really ridiculous really quickly, since the HQ size is the primary factor.

I really don't understand why HQs don't follow the same cost scaling as every other unit based on size and armor. Even if they worked correctly in-game the bonuses from HQs are not so overbearing that the research costs need to be so prohibitive - the ability to command a corps, a formation used in various forms for centuries now, should not be more expensive to develop than futuristic ion engine technology!
 
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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1213 on: December 24, 2020, 02:39:30 PM »
On the other hand, I don't see much of an "exploit" here. Major components like big engines, large weapons, etc. are quite expensive to research so if anything rerolling these becomes a significant game decision. On the other hand rerolling a smaller component I don't think is problematic, after all you can issue a specification for a sensor or fighter engine with X, Y, Z specifications to five different companies and get five different designs to test.

This is also why I raised the fact that small components should be more expensive and larger less expensive than they currently are. I would like to see most components to go from a current size 10 as standard size and cost and then larger get substantially cheaper to research in comparison to size while smaller get way more expensive per size. This would make it much more of a choice to research several small components as research is a rather limiting resource you have.


Maybe a reasonable check here is that the +/- 10% (or other value) applies separately to each performance characteristic. So an engine has a separate roll for each of EP, fuel efficiency, power modifier, ... or a laser has separate rolls for power, recharge/ROF, range, ... and in this case you can even for game balance purposes add a constraint that the net randomness averages out to +/- 0% so you get for example two engines that have the same total performance for their tech, but one may be faster and another more fuel-efficient. This makes "better" components a subjective judgment and again rerolling becomes a strategic decision rather than an "optimize nao" button.

I think this makes sense.... I would like to see normal research to perhaps be a around +/-10% net change and if you want you could make it a 0-10% net change if you invest twice the RP from the start.

I would see such a feature pretty easy to add to the game as it is just about randomise the end values of a component once the research is complete.

Personally I would find it quite entertaining that not every component are carbon copies of each other and it could be interesting to put components of different types yet the same technology and size in different ships. Sure you might end up with ships in your fleet that will now differ about +/-5% in speed unless you compensate with the ships size instead.

I would not mind varied research speeds either for that matter... sometimes research can take more or less time than expected.
 

Offline papent

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Re: C# Suggestions
« Reply #1214 on: December 24, 2020, 10:18:23 PM »
these are probable niche items.
Return of designer mode it makes setting specific scenarios a little bit easier. Although I know it does allow people to destroy their games with mistakes pretty easily.
Enable transfers of Ships to other empires.
In my humble opinion anything that could be considered a balance issue is a moot point unless the AI utilize it against you because otherwise it's an exploit you willing choose to use to game the system. 
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