Author Topic: Suggestion: Plasma Carronade technology: Direct feed  (Read 4441 times)

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Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Suggestion: Plasma Carronade technology: Direct feed
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2020, 06:47:57 PM »
 - Honestly, both Mesons and HPMs should have some sort of damage scaling... I wonder if that's a matter of a simple DB edit?
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Suggestion: Plasma Carronade technology: Direct feed
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2020, 06:58:45 PM »
- Honestly, both Mesons and HPMs should have some sort of damage scaling... I wonder if that's a matter of a simple DB edit?

I checked and it is not.

Since Steve did update railguns a bit for 1.13 I think we can hope that he will look at mesons and HPMs in future updates, certainly I can't imagine he's happy with the current state of those weapon types either. Plasma I think is as good as it will get aside from the possibility of a creative mounting option, since right now it fills its niche very well and the issue is that the niche in question is questionably useful. Mesons and HPMs are just straight-up weak choices even within their niches, and while the idea of having specialized secondary weapons is neat in theory it doesn't fit well with Aurora's research model, with Gauss being really the major exception just because of how important point defense is.
 
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Offline TallTroll

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Re: Suggestion: Plasma Carronade technology: Direct feed
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2021, 01:47:29 PM »
>> and HPMs should have some sort of damage scaling

HPMs already have damage scaling... use them as fighter/FAC weapons. You do need a bit of tech to make them work as fighter weapons, but a couple of dozen will bring down the shields and wipe out the sensors of pretty much any target that doesn't VASTLY outtech you in under a minute. You do then need a Plan B to do actual damage
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Suggestion: Plasma Carronade technology: Direct feed
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2021, 10:41:55 PM »
I've always disliked Mesons so I can't think of anything with them and I agree that Plasma Carronade is fine as it is, especially since it's a quick way to boost your ground force damage output in early game.

For HPM, the one thing that would make them more useful is if microwaves would fry engines in addition to electronics. That would make them the ultimate boarding weapon - take down shields, blind fire controls and sensors, disable engines, send in the marines.

I don't think it would be overpowered compared to other weapons because it would still only do 1 pt of damage per shot meaning that you need lot of weapons to disable a ship quickly since engines have plenty of HTK. Plus, HPM range is on the shorter side of things so enemy lasers / particle beams will definitely put up a proper fight.
 
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Offline serger

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Re: Suggestion: Plasma Carronade technology: Direct feed
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2021, 11:31:40 PM »
It will be a weakening of HPM, because their main advantage is an ability to make a target combat-ineffective quickly, and if engines will be vulnerable - they'll absorb microwaves before FCs went down, so more expected time of return fire.
 
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Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Suggestion: Plasma Carronade technology: Direct feed
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2021, 08:27:42 AM »
True but there would still be a DAC roll. Depending on whether engines are just one slot in that table or 1-slot-per-HTK will make a huge difference and something that can be tested and modified.
 

Offline ExChairman

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Re: Suggestion: Plasma Carronade technology: Direct feed
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2021, 11:09:28 AM »
Make it more like old Starfire where plasma guns fired "pellets"  of plasma, doing heavy damage, it was possible to intercept these "pellets" with missile defences. Make it short ranged, interceptable and powerfull as a last tech for carronades...

Or that might be a problem with SF copyright...
« Last Edit: August 04, 2021, 11:11:48 AM by ExChairman »
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Suggestion: Plasma Carronade technology: Direct feed
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2021, 11:28:42 AM »
Make it more like old Starfire where plasma guns fired "pellets"  of plasma, doing heavy damage, it was possible to intercept these "pellets" with missile defences. Make it short ranged, interceptable and powerfull as a last tech for carronades...

Or that might be a problem with SF copyright...

I think these or similar were in VB6 as the legendary Plasma Torpedoes but have not made an appearance in the C# version.
 
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Offline iceball3

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Re: Suggestion: Plasma Carronade technology: Direct feed
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2021, 02:37:40 PM »
It's an interesting idea, however in practical terms I wonder what this actually does to make a plasma carronade a better weapon than it already is? Presently the plasma carronade essentially works like this: if your guns are in range of the target, you win. The check on it is very short range that cannot be improved with technology (although this does make them a very cheap weapon type to research). So realistically, what does making them even deadlier at that short range actually do to make them a more viable or interesting weapon? At the end of the day, if your guns are in range of the target, you still win.
Actually, I did an analysis on the vanilla plasma carronade a few years ago, and came to a pretty damning conclusion; Plasma carronades are completely identical to same-size infrared-tech lasers, excepting a few differences.
-Infrared lasers cost WAY less.
-Carronades have slightly reduced crew requirements.
-Carronades have a wide penetration profile, more like missiles, so penetrate less layers of armor in a given hit on a fresh segment.

In essence, plasma carronades in any size are 100% obsolete once you research the corresponding size laser, and entirely obsolete for single mounts once you have spinal laser mounts. The only point to researching them is to essentially have larger infrared lasers for fewer tech points, which is... not great, because you're essentially forsaking every other laser technology role in the process. I'm almost certain railguns will outperform it in all except lategame tech shock-damage roles, due to the extra capacitor and weight efficiency of the weapon system.
Hell, lasers even beat it in the point blank alpha strike department anyway because you can just build a battery of infrared lasers with reduced size tech. An incredibly cheap battery too.

I'd like to restate again that carronades are physically identical to flat stock infrared lasers of same size, including the part where they suffer damage falloff, so you necessarily have to hug in 10kkm range to actually do that damage, which entirely requires you have higher initiative than the fleet you're engaging on top of being faster.
It's not great, honestly. I was kind of hoping that carronades would've been directly re-fluffed as specialized planetary bombardment weapon with the ground combat update, so at least it's current stats could be justified as it's essentially the stat spread of an improvisation of a space-to-surface weapon, turned against ships.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Suggestion: Plasma Carronade technology: Direct feed
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2021, 03:18:47 PM »
It's an interesting idea, however in practical terms I wonder what this actually does to make a plasma carronade a better weapon than it already is? Presently the plasma carronade essentially works like this: if your guns are in range of the target, you win. The check on it is very short range that cannot be improved with technology (although this does make them a very cheap weapon type to research). So realistically, what does making them even deadlier at that short range actually do to make them a more viable or interesting weapon? At the end of the day, if your guns are in range of the target, you still win.
Actually, I did an analysis on the vanilla plasma carronade a few years ago, and came to a pretty damning conclusion; Plasma carronades are completely identical to same-size infrared-tech lasers, excepting a few differences.
-Infrared lasers cost WAY less.
-Carronades have slightly reduced crew requirements.
-Carronades have a wide penetration profile, more like missiles, so penetrate less layers of armor in a given hit on a fresh segment.

In essence, plasma carronades in any size are 100% obsolete once you research the corresponding size laser, and entirely obsolete for single mounts once you have spinal laser mounts. The only point to researching them is to essentially have larger infrared lasers for fewer tech points, which is... not great, because you're essentially forsaking every other laser technology role in the process. I'm almost certain railguns will outperform it in all except lategame tech shock-damage roles, due to the extra capacitor and weight efficiency of the weapon system.
Hell, lasers even beat it in the point blank alpha strike department anyway because you can just build a battery of infrared lasers with reduced size tech. An incredibly cheap battery too.

I'd like to restate again that carronades are physically identical to flat stock infrared lasers of same size, including the part where they suffer damage falloff, so you necessarily have to hug in 10kkm range to actually do that damage, which entirely requires you have higher initiative than the fleet you're engaging on top of being faster.
It's not great, honestly. I was kind of hoping that carronades would've been directly re-fluffed as specialized planetary bombardment weapon with the ground combat update, so at least it's current stats could be justified as it's essentially the stat spread of an improvisation of a space-to-surface weapon, turned against ships.

Yeah carronades are only useful if you want to get high ground forces weapons tech. But generally speaking having a stronger space force is better than having a strong ground force. So lasers > carronades.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Suggestion: Plasma Carronade technology: Direct feed
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2021, 03:35:03 PM »
The only point to researching them is to essentially have larger infrared lasers for fewer tech points, which is... not great, because you're essentially forsaking every other laser technology role in the process.

This is actually a huge benefit to plasma carronades, because that "fewer tech points" part is actually a massive difference bordering on order of magnitude.

For example, a base-tech plasma carronade:

Off-Topic: 15 cm C1 Plasma Carronade • show

Damage Output 6     Rate of Fire 30 seconds
Max Range 60,000 km     Carronade Size 4 HS  (200 tons)    Carronade HTK 2
Power Requirement 6    Recharge Rate 1
Cost 2.4    Crew 8
Development Cost 109 RP

Materials Required
Duranium  0.5
Corundium  1.4
Boronide  0.5

This can be built out of the box on a TN start (500 RP after TN Tech on a conventional start) for a very low 109 RP component research cost.

By contrast a 15 cm infrared laser:

Off-Topic: 10.0cm C1 Infrared Laser • show

Damage Output 6    Rate of Fire 30 seconds     Range Modifier 10,000
Max Range 60,000 km     Laser Size 5 HS  (250 tons)     Laser HTK 2
Power Requirement 6    Recharge Rate 1
Cost 2.4    Crew 15
Development Cost 109 RP

Materials Required
Duranium  0.5
Boronide  0.5
Corundium  1.4

has the same development cost but requires 6000 RP (7000 on a conventional start) to develop the same capability.

Okay, but that's early game tech which doesn't matter that much, even on a conventional start it isn't hard to invest a couple years and a few dozen labs to get something shiny. What about later in the game? Well, for a total of 30k RP (i.e., 15k RP for the last tech) we can have a 40 cm carronade:

Off-Topic: 40 cm C1 Plasma Carronade • show

Damage Output 40     Rate of Fire 200 seconds
Max Range 400,000 km     Carronade Size 12 HS  (600 tons)    Carronade HTK 6
Power Requirement 40    Recharge Rate 1
Cost 6.3    Crew 24
Development Cost 177 RP

Materials Required
Duranium  1.3
Corundium  3.8
Boronide  1.3

For 30k RP that actually looks pretty nice, but what about lasers? Well, for 30k RP we can either have this not nearly so impressive-looking 25 cm laser:

Off-Topic: 25.0cm C1 Infrared Laser • show

Damage Output 16    Rate of Fire 80 seconds     Range Modifier 10,000
Max Range 160,000 km     Laser Size 8 HS  (400 tons)     Laser HTK 4
Power Requirement 16    Recharge Rate 1
Cost 4    Crew 24
Development Cost 141 RP

Materials Required
Duranium  0.8
Boronide  0.8
Corundium  2.4

...ugh. Or, we could split our research between caliber and wavelength techs, as God Steve intended, and deploy something like this:

Off-Topic: 20.0cm C1 Ultraviolet Laser • show

Damage Output 10    Rate of Fire 50 seconds     Range Modifier 40,000
Max Range 400,000 km     Laser Size 6 HS  (300 tons)     Laser HTK 3
Power Requirement 10    Recharge Rate 1
Cost 12.6    Crew 18
Development Cost 250 RP

Materials Required
Duranium  2.5
Boronide  2.5
Corundium  7.6

That looks a lot better. The alpha damage is a lot less, but it's half the size and fires 4x faster at the same maximum range (so probably limited by BFC tech at this point in the tech tree). It is however more expensive (~2x the cost per weapon, ~4x the cost per ton), and of course with such low alpha damage for lasers the "plasma bomber" approach still runs a good chance of decimating a fleet if a close-range ambush can be pulled off, such as when defending against a JP assault which conveniently enough is one of the main use cases for plasma.

It is worth pointing out that if we want to deploy a 40cm laser, the required RP investment in caliber tech only would be 245k RP, a factor of eight times more RP than to deploy a 40cm plasma carronade. Again, the RP difference is an order of magnitude difference and is not a negligible consideration.

This RP-cheap nature also makes plasma carronades a very effective research target for boosting the ground forces racial attack level, as for the same nominal RP investment one gains an additional level of racial attack (and compared to lasers one can even pull two levels ahead since lasers and other weapons require multiple tech lines, although in practice this doesn't always happen due to concurrent investment in missiles or Gauss PD techs). This is another significant consideration when considering how well plasma carronades are balanced from the broader strategic perspective.

Overall I find plasma weapons to be fairly well-balanced, and I like using them as a backup beam weapon in missile-heavy fleets when I do not want to expend a lot of RP into lasers or particle beams at the expense of my missile, sensor, and PD techs. To be clear, for a primary beam weapon I will prefer lasers, railguns, or particle beams every time, but for a secondary or tertiary weapon plasma works well and has its own advantages so in my view it is quite usable. I think the mistake many players make is that the compare plasma to lasers on the premise that all beam weapon types should be equally viable and "balanced" as a primary fleet armament, which simply is not how Aurora is balanced nor should it be. It is entirely okay for some beam weapon types to be narrow and specialized, as long as they still have a useful niche in the game I think "balance" is achieved. Thus in my view, plasma is balanced in the same manner as HPMs and Gauss cannons as a viable secondary weapon (mesons, however, I have yet to find a compelling argument or use case for and I maintain they have been over-nerfed due to their power in VB6).
« Last Edit: August 04, 2021, 03:39:23 PM by nuclearslurpee »
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Suggestion: Plasma Carronade technology: Direct feed
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2021, 07:58:46 PM »
I think many players don't take the RP cost into consideration because if you're doing a "normal" game start with 1 NPR and some spoilers, paying 40k RP vs 4k RP isn't that big of a deal - in most cases you have the time to wait for that laser research to advance and you're not in a hurry to get a weapon out there.

Now, if you do a conventional multi-race start, then the RP cost becomes a hugely important factor and for those players who do that sort of thing, plasma is entirely viable weapon tech to go for. Plus, it's good for emergencies - if you forget to research lasers or RG or missiles and run into hostiles one jump away from Sol, plasma carronades are your best friend unless you have so many labs you can crash research other weapons in a week.
 

Offline iceball3

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Re: Suggestion: Plasma Carronade technology: Direct feed
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2021, 06:11:15 AM »
I forgot that Steve added in ground forces weapon systems, that's actually pretty relevant! It's now a ground forces tech :P
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Suggestion: Plasma Carronade technology: Direct feed
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2021, 03:53:24 PM »
Also add that Plasma weapons are extremely effective as ground to space weapons for the time and research you put into them. Since size really is not a factor for planetary defences they are very efficient weapon in terms of research you put into them. If you instead put RP into sensors and fire-controls rather than expensive beam weapon technologies then plasma weapons will show how powerful they actually are.

As I like multi-faction games and know how important the RP cost is then plasma usually is the first weapon system most factions tend to develop as that give them better ground troops and better planetary batteries.

Another effect is that if you only have one large weapon on your ship as a secondary beam defence system you only pay half the cost of the fire-control rather than several laser or rail gun systems for example. It also cut down on research costs as well as fire-control costs.

Plasma only real drawback is that is is bad as a PD weapon, but I think you can generally live with that. Most who develop plasma tech probably also develop gauss cannons for PD at some stage to compensate. Low tech rail-guns also work well as a complement to Plasma weapons until you can afford better PD such as Gauss cannons.

I think that plasma weapons can be a main beam weapon for fleets that rely on beam weapons if paired with gauss technology, especially in slow tech campaigns where it is very unlikely to ever get into late game tech to begin with.