Author Topic: Ion era beam ships  (Read 1674 times)

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Offline bankshot (OP)

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Ion era beam ships
« on: January 29, 2021, 10:52:31 AM »
I'm finally getting around to setting up a fleet, and I decided to go with 16K as my target size.  That will allow two 60HS 85% engines to push the ship at 4km/s which matches my fire control tech.  Is the following design reasonably balanced?  My planned doctrine is for fleets to be made up of one jump carrier to hold scout fighters, one tanker, and 6 of these as the primary fighting force. My regular tankers have commercial engines, so they are limited to 2.5km/s which means I'll probably have to design a dedicated fleet tanker/supply ship. 

I have only explored 1 jump out from Sol and haven't encountered any NPRs for now I just need a defense force, but I want something that could potentially be used later to escort a missile cruiser strike fleet once my economy is mature enough to warrant further further exploration.


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Merlin class Destroyer (P)      15,936 tons       431 Crew       2,281 BP       TCS 319    TH 1,275    EM 600
4000 km/s      Armour 4-56       Shields 20-300       HTK 103      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 11      PPV 100.4
Maint Life 3.34 Years     MSP 1,864    AFR 185%    IFR 2.6%    1YR 254    5YR 3,808    Max Repair 270.9375 MSP
Captain    Control Rating 3   BRG   ENG   CIC   
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Morale Check Required   

Ion Drive 85% 60HS  EP637.50 (2)    Power 1275.0    Fuel Use 16.32%    Signature 637.5    Explosion 8%
Fuel Capacity 160,000 Litres    Range 11.1 billion km (32 days at full power)
Gamma S20 / R300 Shields (1)     Recharge Time 300 seconds (0.1 per second)

18cm Spinal C4/15s UV Laser (2)    Range 256,000km     TS: 4,000 km/s     Power 9-4     RM 40,000 km    ROF 15       
12cm C4/5s UV Laser (6)    Range 160,000km     TS: 4,000 km/s     Power 4-4     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5       
Twin Gauss Cannon 3x R30-85.00 Turret (5x6)    Range 30,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R256-TS4000 (1)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 4,000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
PD BFC R45-TS16000 (2)     Max Range: 44,800 km   TS: 16,000 km/s     78 55 33 11 0 0 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor R14 (3)     Total Power Output 42.3    Exp 5%

PD Active Search  7.3M/658K-R1 (1)     GPS 21     Range 7.3m km    MCR 658.1k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

 

Offline misanthropope

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Re: Ion era beam ships
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2021, 11:37:53 AM »
the combination of slow and thinly armored (in both cases, "for a beam ship") wont be much problem in pure defense or escort duty, but things could go pear-shaped in a hurry if you're depending on a fleet of these things to take it to somebody. 

im not one of the "3:1" fundamentalists on this board, but even a modest increase in the power multiple could save you significant tonnage, enough to thicken up the armor at any rate.  going up to a power multiple of 1.0 at size 51 seems like it cant strain your logistics too much, and gains you a thousand tons or so.

the endurance and weapon mix both seem ok to me.  maybe too much gauss not enough laser?  obv it depends on a lot of things you can't know at this point, but id be tempted to replace at least one gauss turret with turreted 10cm lasers. 

might plow the shield tonnage back into armor, just for the extra hits to kill.  in any combat you're focused on winning _at all_, not winning the flawless victory.
 
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Offline Zap0

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Re: Ion era beam ships
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2021, 12:07:54 PM »
Quote
18cm Spinal C4/15s UV Laser (2)    Range 256,000km     TS: 4,000 km/s     Power 9-4     RM 40,000 km    ROF 15 

B-but you can only have one spinal weapon!

It looks reasonably balanced generally. I'd shoot for ~5k speed for an ion beam ship. The early tech shields are pretty sad, they may be better spent as armor. The lasers could benefit from being bigger for more range, but the 5s reload on the 12cm is nice - maybe upgrade to 20cm when you hit cap recharge 5.

Tip: You can reduce the capacitor on the spinal laser to 3 to make it cheaper, it'll only fire every 3 turns anyway.
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Ion era beam ships
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2021, 12:13:54 PM »
The shields make no sense and should probably be armor instead. 20 strength is less than half a layer of armor, will be destroyed easily by just 3-5 missiles or weapon shots, and I shudder to think about how much tonnage you're dedicating to get such a small effect.

Deployment time 24 months makes not a lot of sense especially with only 11b km of range. I'd reduce it down to 12 months and bump up the range. If you run into a situation where you need ships on station for more than 12 months at a time you'll probably be better-served to tug a recreation station to that position, as the upfront expense will be made up for by designing more efficient combat ships.

4000 km/s is rather slow for an ion-era beam ship. I'd try to get at least 5000 km/s, at 4000 km/s you will struggle to close with enemy missile ships at the same tech level. Additionally, I do think 11b km range is rather low, it's not unmanageable but it will require you to always have a tanker pre-positioned or you will be waiting for a tanker to show up for a large part of your total time during an operation. I usually design my fleet warships to a range of 30b km but even 20b km is probably fine, this should often at least allow a fleet to reach its station and then engage in an operation while waiting for the tanker to show up and refuel them for the trip back home.

If you're not stressed about fuel conservation, an "optimal" propulsion design (maintaining a 3:1 ratio between engine and fuel mass) would be 2x size 48 ion engines with 1.50x EP modifier, which along with 1.4m L fuel will get you over 5000 km/s and 20b km range. If you want to be more fuel-efficient and keep the same "form factor" so to speak, with 2x size 60 engines a 1.10x EM modifier will get you to 5000 km/s. If you haven't got the EP modifier tech...well, it's 500 RP, so what's the holdup? But in that case, at 1.0x modifier you can get 5000 km/s with 3x size 43 engines.

Enough about engines. Looks like you've got two spinal lasers, just be aware that come 1.13 it will no longer be possible to mount multiple of these as it is considered a bug that you can presently. Your spinal laser could use the Recharge 3 capacitor instead of 4 to save a few minerals, as you'll get ROF 15 either way. The overall laser loadout looks a bit light but since you are also mounting Gauss turrets I think it looks about right all together. Do note that due to an obtuse collision of statistics and salvo mechanics, smaller Gauss weapons are more optimal for PD with sizes 1 HS and smaller being the best - it looks like you're using a larger size, which won't be crippling just a bit sub-optimal.

Your PD BFC would benefit from a longer range, presently you will only have about 78% accuracy in PD fire as final fire takes place at 10,000 km range. I would probably try to get 96,000 km range on the PD control as this puts you close to 90% accuracy (good enough, any more would mean diminishing returns) with only a 1.5x size multiplier at worst.

Your reactor is a good bit more than you need, you have 8x lasers at Recharge 4 so only need 32 power and you're producing 42. I;d either cut that down, or push up to 3x R16 so you have one reactor for redundancy in case of battle damage. However, if you convert the spinal lasers to only use Recharge 3 then your power need is only 30 so you should use 2x or 3x R15 reactors.

Note that you should make sure if this ship doesn't have passive sensors, you have a ship which does that can accompany it. A 3,000-ton sensor corvette with size 12 EM and thermal sensors will work well although you'd have to design a new engine for it.
 
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Offline brondi00

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Re: Ion era beam ships
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2021, 01:11:39 PM »
All of this is good advice.  I'd echo the way too long deployment time.  For ships of a, primarily, defensive nature, i usually only use 3-6 months.  They will be staying close to home not going on long flights to other systems on expeditions for expansion and raiding.

Also I'd echo a range of about 20bKm.  It's enough for a good one way distance with fuel for fighting (which beam ships really need since they have to close to engage).

You may not be able to make it all the way home but, hey, of you live you can send tankers to top everyone off for the return trip.

The only new thing I'd say is a ship that is going to primarily be stationed at home for system defense doesn't need 3 years of maintenance life either.  Maybe 3-6 months, maybe you to 9 months for combat repair stores. 

All and all you made the opposite mistakes I did as a newb.  I tended to not include enough deployment time (I often forgot to even set it at all) and would forget maintenance.

All the suggested changes should up the mission tonnage and make the shop faster and leaner so it can do its job of defense much better. 
 
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Offline brondi00

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Re: Ion era beam ships
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2021, 01:12:46 PM »
Also, if you make any changes I'm always interested in seeing what you changed. 

Regards
 

Offline bankshot (OP)

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Re: Ion era beam ships
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2021, 02:57:24 PM »
Thanks for all your feedback.  My fleets in prior games have been missile predominant, so I wasn't thinking in terms of beam ship speed even though this is a beam ship.  The shields were size 10/500 tons and were included under the theory that I should have a shield capable of catching one missile of current tech damage (16) or two of prior tech.  Adding a 5th layer of armor cost about 7.5 HS.  I shrunk the gauss turrets to half size but I'm not willing to go to 1HS turrets.  The remaining space savings went to extra lasers and fuel.  I left the reactors alone to have partial redundancy in case of combat damage (if a reactor gets destroyed a couple of lasers probably did too).  I haven't designed my scouts yet but I plan for them to be parasites attached to the jump ship/carrier/flagship for the fleet so passive sensors weren't included in this design.  Here's version 2:

Code: [Select]
Merlin 2 class Destroyer (P)      16,068 tons       471 Crew       2,692.1 BP       TCS 321    TH 1,800    EM 0
5601 km/s      Armour 5-56       Shields 0-0       HTK 100      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 9      PPV 99.8
Maint Life 2.37 Years     MSP 1,874    AFR 217%    IFR 3.0%    1YR 457    5YR 6,855    Max Repair 450.00 MSP
Captain    Control Rating 3   BRG   ENG   CIC   
Intended Deployment Time: 9 months    Morale Check Required   

Ion Drive  120% 60HS EP900.00 (2)    Power 1800.0    Fuel Use 38.64%    Signature 900.00    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 600,000 Litres    Range 17.4 billion km (35 days at full power)

18cm Spinal C4/15s UV Laser (1)    Range 256,000km     TS: 5,601 km/s     Power 9-4     RM 40,000 km    ROF 15       
12cm C4/5s UV Laser (8)    Range 160,000km     TS: 5,601 km/s     Power 4-4     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5       
Twin Gauss Cannon 3x R30-67% Turret (6x6)    Range 30,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R256-TS5600 (1)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 5,600 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
PD BFC R96-TS16000 (2)     Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 16,000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor R14 (3)     Total Power Output 42.3    Exp 5%

PD Active Search  7.3M/658K-R1 (1)     GPS 21     Range 7.3m km    MCR 658.1k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Ion era beam ships
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2021, 03:58:30 PM »
When did Steve remove the limit on one spinal weapon per ship... I must have missed that information?!?
 

Offline Zap0

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Re: Ion era beam ships
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2021, 03:58:50 PM »
When did Steve remove the limit on one spinal weapon per ship... I must have missed that information?!?

Bug, undone in 1.13
 

Offline brondi00

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Re: Ion era beam ships
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2021, 06:07:00 PM »
I do think overall that's a better ship.  Better speed.  Still similar fire power and without abusing the spinal laser bug.