United Terran Confederation, testing the Vertical Launch System Doctrine

[Detjen (OP)]

Mankind has finally achieved travel among the stars. though Earth remains factionalized among the nations of the world, most grievances have faded and all but the very few most stubborn and backwards countries have signed and ratified the First Solar Constitution.  this constitution gives the Confederation the sole rights to colonization and space born affairs, in return the confederation supplies the nations of the world with the latest technologies and supplies of cheap Trans-Newtonian minerals.

 Unfortunately today a new reveal has brought a twist to the lives of the Terran people.  30 years of almost exuberant almost golden age of development and expansion into the solar system has met with a terrifying new reality.    Earths only jump exploration vessel the Carl Sagan entered the Ross 248 system and instantly detected a 18500 ton wreck.  In one fell swoop there was proof of alien life, hostile life, and life that was a single jump point away from earth.  making a quick retreat in case the attack was in system the Sagan proceeded to explore the jump point from sol to Bernard's Star, only to find two wrecks, one at 69900 tons and the other 9250.   now Two jump points connected directly to the Solar system has the proof that aliens exist, and indeed someone out there is hostile.  suddenly space feels dangerous, deadly, and the People want the confederation to do something.

It is April 14th 2065 and a new era is to begin. a military fleet must be built, the people protected.

This game is a practice at using a different design doctrine than most.  instead of using a few launchers with magazines I intend to try to use something closer to the Vertical Launch System that are basically just a collection of box launchers. naturally ill have to trade the ability to basically insta-reload from a collier into a magazine for longer reloads and maintenance facilities but in return I do have the potential for a far larger salvo, which can be tailored to help overcome potentially heavy anti missile systems, not to mention damage resistance, damage to a launcher wont prevent me from launching other missiles,  though am I risking a chain explosion of missiles and launchers going off?  also I have a few other rules I like to put in on my ships

* Jumpdrives for every ship that's ment to travel through jump points, basically a warp drive for every ship  unless a gate has been built. "Towing" will be allowed for a ship if their jumpdrive was destroyed in battle
* CIWS for every non frigate.  im not sure if I really need to post this one but just in case every ship thats not a frigate will be required to have between 1-5 CIWS systems.  frigates being the AMM systems of the fleet they'll sacrifice their own personal defense for more overall fleet defense.  destroyers will have one Cruisers 3 and battleships and possibly carriers 5, exact numbers are sorta flexible
* Sensors for all!  every ship must carry some sensor system,  most will probably just be tiny active with maybe  somewhat sizeable passive sensors, while there will be an "Ageis" type ship, maybe a cruiser or maybe a battleship,  with the massive sensor for Fleet CNC control. 

 My fleet idea currently consists of
Frigate- AMM ship, ment to bring down incoming missiles with a small ability to return fire of its all. 
Destroyers- A small combat capable ship,  ment to share size similarity with the frigate though trading its defensive weaponry with greater offensive capability. together the frigate and destroyers can make a squadron led by a cruiser.  these groups will be great for patrols and generally good will in systems,  while supplying some if limited firepower to offensive fleets
Cruiser- Cruisers combine a fair amount of AMM capability with greater offensive capability and sensor support.  Cruisers will serve as leaders for Destroyer/Frigate squadrons and escorts for the larger ships
Battle cruiser- Heavy offense cruiser. sacrificing armor and some AMM capability for greater speed and weaponry. like traditional battle cruisers the idea is to be able to destroyer smaller ships and flee from larger ships, maybe in a fleet role provide a battleship for times when a battleship is overkill.   maybe an unnecessary ship?
Battleship-  Mammoth warship, to live up to its name it will be swathed in armor and shields, and carry some heavy weaponry.  these may carry the ultimate fleet sensors since the ships will be designed to absorb the hits anyways it might be better than leaving them on smaller cruisers. 

Naturally there will be some colliers and tankers. colliers probably consisting of just as many maintenance modules as cargo spaces, to at least allow reloading of the frigates and destroyers, unless I build simply gigantic colliers im not sure if cruisers on up will be able to use them and thus will probably be limited to returning to planets with facilities capable of handling them.

now I have one ship designed, mostly for system protection, to keep the planets from getting uppity. its a poor design, and likely to fail in any military combat, but its great for keeping plants happy and pirates laying low.

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Hydra class Frigate    15,000 tons     140 Crew     1542 BP      TCS 300  TH 900  EM 0
3000 km/s     Armour 5-54     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 12     PPV 45
Maint Life 4.17 Years     MSP 5128    AFR 900%    IFR 12.5%    1YR 472    5YR 7086    Max Repair 150 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 300   

USN Ion 300 (3)    Power 300    Fuel Use 45%    Signature 300    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 3,550,000 Litres    Range 94.7 billion km   (365 days at full power)

Class 1 VLS (75)    Missile Size 1    Hangar Reload 7.5 minutes    MF Reload 1.2 hours
Class 5 VLS (25)    Missile Size 5    Hangar Reload 37.5 minutes    MF Reload 6.2 hours
Class 10 VLS (10)    Missile Size 10    Hangar Reload 75 minutes    MF Reload 12.5 hours
ASMFC136-R130 (1)     Range 136.8m km    Resolution 130
AMMFC12-R1 (1)     Range 12.0m km    Resolution 1
Gauntlet AMM Mark I (75)  Speed: 7,200 km/s   End: 359.4m    Range: 155.3m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 38/23/11
Dagger Mark I (25)  Speed: 9,600 km/s   End: 245.4m    Range: 141.3m km   WH: 6    Size: 5    TH: 48/28/14
Longbow ASM MK I (10)  Speed: 18,000 km/s   End: 99.1m    Range: 107.1m km   WH: 10    Size: 10    TH: 96/57/28

ASMR40-R100 (1)     GPS 5000     Range 40.0m km    Resolution 100

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

as you can tell too much maintenance, 4 years when I was thinking 2 year deployment, AMM fire control sensor is way short for the AMM but it kept everyone feeling safe.  now I am doing a bit of a crash research into sensors to try and expand range before building my next class, which by some practice builds is ballooning up to about 25,000 tons.  I remove a number of the size 5 and 10 launchers, updated armor and new propulsion, up the fuel tanks though maybe instead of trying to push up to 2 year deplyments I should aim for closer to 1, 1.5?   new ships will have shields as well,  and ill probly try to fit on at least one single or dual railgun turret, or maybe cut down on the total number of AMM launchers and go for more railgun defense.  has anyone tried the VLS style ship, any suggestions on way to go with launcher numbers,  also should I focus on shorter deployments for naval ships, maybe lave berths for 2 year deployment but only about a years worth of supply in fuel and maintenance?

[Detjen (OP)]

This spot is resevered as a general quick list of my ships as I design and build them so we dont have to dance around the forum looking for them.
Hydra Class Frigate Commissioned 2046 Decomissioned 2083 Three commissioned Hydra 2.15.2046, Gorgon 5.20.2052, Minotaur 11.23.2053 All three have been retrofitted as of 2083

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Hydra class Frigate    15,000 tons     140 Crew     1542 BP      TCS 300  TH 900  EM 0
3000 km/s     Armour 5-54     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 12     PPV 45
Maint Life 4.17 Years     MSP 5128    AFR 900%    IFR 12.5%    1YR 472    5YR 7086    Max Repair 150 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 0    
Magazine 300    

USN Ion 300 (3)    Power 300    Fuel Use 45%    Signature 300    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 3,550,000 Litres    Range 94.7 billion km   (365 days at full power)

Class 1 VLS (75)    Missile Size 1    Hangar Reload 7.5 minutes    MF Reload 1.2 hours
Class 5 VLS (25)    Missile Size 5    Hangar Reload 37.5 minutes    MF Reload 6.2 hours
Class 10 VLS (10)    Missile Size 10    Hangar Reload 75 minutes    MF Reload 12.5 hours
ASMFC136-R130 (1)     Range 136.8m km    Resolution 130
AMMFC12-R1 (1)     Range 12.0m km    Resolution 1
Gauntlet AMM Mark I (75)  Speed: 7,200 km/s   End: 359.4m    Range: 155.3m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 38/23/11
Dagger Mark I (25)  Speed: 9,600 km/s   End: 245.4m    Range: 141.3m km   WH: 6    Size: 5    TH: 48/28/14
Longbow ASM MK I (10)  Speed: 18,000 km/s   End: 99.1m    Range: 107.1m km   WH: 10    Size: 10    TH: 96/57/28

ASMR40-R100 (1)     GPS 5000     Range 40.0m km    Resolution 100

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance


Kobold class Frigate 5 in service (Kobold 2.30.2081, Kappa 2.30.2081, Pheonix 2.30.2081, Hydra 6.2.2083, Gorgon 6.2.2083,) 1 Lost Minotaur 6.2.2083-9.11.2088

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15,000 tons     337 Crew     3081 BP      TCS 300  TH 560  EM 600
5333 km/s    JR 3-50     Armour 3-54     Shields 20-400     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 19     PPV 62.92
Maint Life 3.16 Years     MSP 2155    AFR 199%    IFR 2.8%    1YR 324    5YR 4855    Max Repair 700 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 36 months    Spare Berths 0    
Magazine 240    

Arestech J15000 Series 10     Max Ship Size 15000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
TCS M/p Drive 800 (2)    Power 800    Fuel Use 25%    Signature 280    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 750,000 Litres    Range 36.0 billion km   (78 days at full power)
Ingen Series 4-R400/480 Deflectors (5)   Total Fuel Cost  100 Litres per hour  (2,400 per day)

Twin Sparta 1.5 10cm UV Turret (2x2)    Range 120,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 6-3     RM 4    ROF 10        3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Quad Gausling R3-25 Cannon Turret (2x12)    Range 30,000km     TS: 25000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
CET FC128-7500 (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 7500 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
CET FC64-15000 (1)    Max Range: 128,000 km   TS: 15000 km/s     92 84 77 69 61 53 45 37 30 22
DAZMAR Series 6 SFR (1)     Total Power Output 6    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Class 1 VLS (240)    Missile Size 1    Hangar Reload 7.5 minutes    MF Reload 1.2 hours
AMMFC12-R1 (4)     Range 12.0m km    Resolution 1
Gauntlet AMM Mark II (240)  Speed: 19,200 km/s   End: 3.6m    Range: 4.1m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 281/169/84
Yuri Gargarian class Destroyer  3 in service (Yuri Gargarian 2.23.2085, Neil Armstrong 2.23.2085, Phillip J Fry 2.23.2085)

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15,000 tons     292 Crew     2275 BP      TCS 300  TH 1600  EM 720
5333 km/s    JR 3-50     Armour 3-54     Shields 24-400     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 19     PPV 73.27
Maint Life 2.99 Years     MSP 1853    AFR 199%    IFR 2.8%    1YR 310    5YR 4648    Max Repair 400 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 36 months    Spare Berths 0    
Magazine 425    

Arestech J15000 Series 10     Max Ship Size 15000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
NJPL M/p 800-4 Drive (2)    Power 800    Fuel Use 20%    Signature 800    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 750,000 Litres    Range 45.0 billion km   (97 days at full power)
Ingen Series 4-R400/480 Deflectors (6)   Total Fuel Cost  120 Litres per hour  (2,880 per day)

Twin Sparta 1.5 10cm UV Turret (2x2)    Range 120,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 6-3     RM 4    ROF 10        3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Phalanx CIWS-200 (1x8)    Range 1000 km     TS: 20000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
CET FC128-7500 (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 7500 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
DAZMAR Series 6 SFR (1)     Total Power Output 6    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Class 5 VLS (85)    Missile Size 5    Hangar Reload 37.5 minutes    MF Reload 6.2 hours
ASMFC136-R130 (2)     Range 136.8m km    Resolution 130
Dagger Mark II (85)  Speed: 9,600 km/s   End: 187m    Range: 107.7m km   WH: 9    Size: 5    TH: 140/84/42
Rome Class Cruiser 1 built (Rome 4.11.2088)

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25,000 tons     578 Crew     4205 BP      TCS 500  TH 3200  EM 1200
6400 km/s    JR 3-50     Armour 3-76     Shields 40-400     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 22     PPV 83.73
Maint Life 3.06 Years     MSP 3313    AFR 227%    IFR 3.2%    1YR 530    5YR 7943    Max Repair 400 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 36 months    Spare Berths 0    
Magazine 350    

Arestech J25000 Series 10     Max Ship Size 25000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
NJPL M/p 800-4 Drive (4)    Power 800    Fuel Use 20%    Signature 800    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1,050,000 Litres    Range 37.8 billion km   (68 days at full power)
Ingen Series 4-R400/480 Deflectors (10)   Total Fuel Cost  200 Litres per hour  (4,800 per day)

Triple Sparta 25cm UV Turret (1x3)    Range 256,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 48-18     RM 4    ROF 15        16 16 16 16 12 10 9 8 7 6
Phalanx CIWS-200 (2x8)    Range 1000 km     TS: 20000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
CET FC128-7500 (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 7500 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
DAZMAR series 48 SFR (1)     Total Power Output 48    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Class 5 VLS (60)    Missile Size 5    Hangar Reload 37.5 minutes    MF Reload 6.2 hours
Class 10 VLS (5)    Missile Size 10    Hangar Reload 75 minutes    MF Reload 12.5 hours
ASMFC136-R130 (2)     Range 136.8m km    Resolution 130
Dagger Mark II (50)  Speed: 9,600 km/s   End: 187m    Range: 107.7m km   WH: 9    Size: 5    TH: 140/84/42
Longbow Mark II (10)  Speed: 28,800 km/s   End: 56.6m    Range: 97.7m km   WH: 12    Size: 10    TH: 230/138/69

ASSMR231-R100 (1)     GPS 21000     Range 231.0m km    Resolution 100

[metalax]

It looks like you are using maintenance storage bays to get your maintenance life up. While this gives you a slight reduction in the build cost of the ship and the crew requirements, it also means you burn through a lot more maintenance supplies over time and it takes up more space within the design compared to using engineering spaces for the same maintenance life.

I personally aim for a three year maintenance life so as to keep to a 3 year service, 1 year overhaul cycle without needing to worry about resupplying maintenance supplies during normal operations, but a shorter life is certainly viable if you have supply ships in your fleet train. Similarly I keep a 3 year deployment time so there is no need to worry about r&r, the crew receive their shore leave while the ship is under overhaul. If you are willing to have your ships coming back more frequently or your ships will normally be based at colonies that can provide r&r then a shorter deployment can work just as well.

If you are going to be having tankers accompanying your fleet I would certainly cut down the amount of fuel carried. I'd suggest around 3 months as that allows some independent action, without tying up a lot of ship tonnage in fuel tanks.

I think you need to look at your missile designs again, your asm's really shouldn't be more effective at missile defence than your amm's.

You'd want at least a size 1 resolution 1 active sensor to be picking up missiles, as a backup for if your fleet sensor ship goes down. If you design one large enough to provide decent range for your amm's it can also serve as a backup for your asm's as well. I'd also recommend adding a few more fire controls, particularly for your amm's

The number of launchers seems low for a ship this size, though that is at least partially due to the fact I wouldn't mix multiple sizes of asm's without them being explicitly designed for different targets with the matching fire controls/sensors.

I've been using vls style ships of primarily box launchers along with a smaller number of 50% size launchers to allow for some sustained fire for my last few games, and the design certainly seems to work well. The alpha strike potential means you can frequently overwhelm any point defence, or you can repeatedly fire off single missiles to force the enemy to exhaust their amm stock. One thing I tend to do is to have a reloading ship of around twice the size with sufficient hangar and magazine space to reload my smaller ships that use the vls design one by one, refilling the missiles to reload the ships from colliers as needed. This mitigates the need to return to a colony to rearm between engagements and with smaller missiles can be fast enough to actually be of use while in combat.

[Detjen (OP)]

Yea my AMM's were one of my very first missiles designed the technology was so poor my larger missles easly outpace it, since im not in any actual threat of being attacked I still have the leasure of taking time, so I spent another handful of years developing some of my lesser developed techs, and got better engines set up along with more advanced warheads and missile agility.  this is my mark II design

Missile Size: 1 MSP  (0.05 HS)     Warhead: 1    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 44
Speed: 19200 km/s    Engine Endurance: 4 minutes   Range: 4.1m km
Cost Per Missile: 1.17
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 844.8%   3k km/s 264%   5k km/s 169%   10k km/s 84.5%

I took quite a bit of range out to increase manover cutting from 155 m to 4.1.  im not fully sure how I feel on this though my future design is intended to be part of a fleet, ill drop the 5 and 10 launchers, and stick to size 1

Active Sensor Strength: 126   Sensitivity Modifier: 110%
Sensor Size: 6 HS    Sensor HTK: 1
Resolution: 1    Maximum Range vs 50 ton object (or larger): 41,580,000 km
Range vs Size 6 Missile (or smaller): 4,528,062 km
Range vs Size 8 Missile: 6,652,800 km
Range vs Size 12 Missile: 14,968,800 km

maybe a bit chunky, considering my missile has a 4.1m km range, but if I read my numbers right this means nothing over a size six missile will sneak past my sensor plus I can grow into this pretty easily.   I dont have a full new design ready yet, as I been pushing back on designing some laser and gauss weaponry to go with my missile designs, and I hae a bad case of wait three more months for this, but then I can wait another 6 months and so on.  im gonna have to just tell myself to build some now and upgrade later eventually.

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Hydra - Copy class Frigate    15,450 tons     260 Crew     3448 BP      TCS 309  TH 700  EM 1800
6472 km/s     Armour 5-55     Shields 60-360     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 14     PPV 15
Maint Life 3.5 Years     MSP 5558    AFR 477%    IFR 6.6%    1YR 695    5YR 10421    Max Repair 350 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 36 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 100   

TCS M/p Drive 400 (5)    Power 400    Fuel Use 37.5%    Signature 140    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 2,000,000 Litres    Range 62.1 billion km   (111 days at full power)
Deflector R360/360 Series (20)   Total Fuel Cost  300 Litres per hour  (7,200 per day)

Class 1 VLS (100)    Missile Size 1    Hangar Reload 7.5 minutes    MF Reload 1.2 hours
AMFC41-R1 (5)     Range 41.6m km    Resolution 1
Gauntlet AMM Mark II (100)  Speed: 19,200 km/s   End: 3.6m    Range: 4.1m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 281/169/84

ASMR40-R100 (1)     GPS 5000     Range 40.0m km    Resolution 100

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
Im thinking a laser turret probably a duel 12cm with a ROF 5 to act as a mid range anti missile and a small bit of anti ship.  backing that up 3-4 gauss turrets though im not sure if I should stick to size 6 with the 100% or maybe shrink it down to a 1.5 and make a quad turret,  is it better to fire fewer higher chance to hit or  more with lower chance to hit but alot more metal flying?

[Zatsuza]

Looks a little better than your first one, I think. Looks a lot like my first ship as well. Still, a 15~kt vessel with only 100 AMMs as an armament feels a little on the low side. 
In any case I'd definitely stick in some laser or gauss PD as a secondary weapon, so when your VLS cells are empty you're not completely unarmed.

Depending on enemy missile velocities you could be forced to use 2:1 or even a 3:1 fire to get anything like a reliable kill ratio, though I think your AMMs should be able to do well enough on a 1:1 ratio unless you meet anything completely hideous. Then again, in a fleet you can probably get away with lower fire ratios anyway and hope your shields can soak up the rest that get through. in any case, a few ships with all that instant firepower could swamp a LOT of enemy PD.

As for laser or gauss, I'd go with either, not both. The extra tonnage needed for different FCS would be a bit too wasteful-- you really want to save as much tonnage as possible.

[Hawkeye]

Oh gosh, you´re ship will die a horrible death

No, seriously, Box Launchers for an ESCORT are simply a horrible idea (great (IMO) for ASMs, but realy, realy horrible in an Anti-Missile role).

The most common way, if you don´t know your enemies capabilities is to look at how your AMMs perform vs. your own ASMs.


Looking at your Longbows above, you will need at least 2 AMMs for each ASM.
This means, you can shoot down just 50 enemy missiles. After that, your 15.000 ton frigate turns into a big juicy target.

My DE below, which seems to be roughly at the same tech-level as you are, is somewhat slower, has weaker armor and shields, but it is designed to do a mission, and that is to protect the fleet from enemy missiles. It does that with 8 missile launchers that can launch almost 30 salvos for a total (again assuming 2 AMMs per ASM) of 120 enemy missiles and it _also_ carries a PD laser turret take on the leakers.

As I said, my DE has less armor and less shields, but once your frigate runs out of AMMs, that no longer matters all that much, now does it?
Also, my DE costs less than half a smuch as yours 

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Edward VII Mk. III class Destroyer Escort    8,000 tons     190 Crew     1438.8 BP      TCS 160  TH 912  EM 960
5700 km/s     Armour 3-35     Shields 32-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 15.82
Maint Life 2.87 Years     MSP 450    AFR 128%    IFR 1.8%    1YR 80    5YR 1205    Max Repair 154 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 237   

Parsons Type 228 Military Magneto-Plasma Drive (4)    Power 228    Fuel Use 44.86%    Signature 228    Exp 9%
Fuel Capacity 500,000 Litres    Range 25.1 billion km   (50 days at full power)
Vickers Type Delta/2.5 Electromagnetic Shield (13)   Total Fuel Cost  195 Litres per hour  (4,680 per day)

Twin Elswick 4" FUV Laser Cannon Mk. 88 Turret (1x2)    Range 128,000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 5    ROF 5        3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1
Pollen Fire Control System 64-16000 (1)    Max Range: 128,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     92 84 77 69 61 53 45 37 30 22
Brown-Curtiss Stellarator Fusion Reactor (1)     Total Power Output 6    Armour 0    Exp 5%

British Aerospace Company Sylver VLS (8)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
High Angel Control System Type 17/1 (2)     Range 17.3m km    Resolution 1
British Aerospace Starflash IV (237)  Speed: 38,400 km/s   End: 1.9m    Range: 4.4m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 243/146/73

Barr & Strout Type 11.5/1 Radar System (1)     GPS 105     Range 11.6m km    Resolution 1

ECM 10

[Detjen (OP)]

  It might die horribly, but I did intend to build all this specifically for testing a fleet of box launching ships.  box launching ships that keep ballooning in size cause im terrible at self control

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Kobold class Frigate    25,000 tons     536 Crew     5437 BP      TCS 500  TH 980  EM 1200
5600 km/s    JR 3-50     Armour 3-76     Shields 40-400     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 24     PPV 88.57
Maint Life 3.18 Years     MSP 2903    AFR 357%    IFR 5%    1YR 431    5YR 6464    Max Repair 350 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 36 months    Spare Berths 0    
Magazine 295    

Arestech J25000 Series 10     Max Ship Size 25000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
TCS M/p Drive 400 (7)    Power 400    Fuel Use 37.5%    Signature 140    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 2,500,000 Litres    Range 48.0 billion km   (99 days at full power)
Ingen Series 4-R400/480 Deflectors (10)   Total Fuel Cost  200 Litres per hour  (4,800 per day)

Twin Sparta 1.5 10cm UV Turret (2x2)    Range 120,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 6-3     RM 4    ROF 10        3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Quad Gausling R3-25 Cannon Turret (4x12)    Range 30,000km     TS: 25000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
CET FC64-15000 (2)    Max Range: 128,000 km   TS: 15000 km/s     92 84 77 69 61 53 45 37 30 22
CET FC128-7500 (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 7500 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
SFR Series 6 (1)     Total Power Output 6    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Class 1 VLS (295)    Missile Size 1    Hangar Reload 7.5 minutes    MF Reload 1.2 hours
AMFC41-R1 (5)     Range 41.6m km    Resolution 1
Gauntlet AMM Mark II (220)  Speed: 19,200 km/s   End: 3.6m    Range: 4.1m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 281/169/84

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
 At first I was expecting this, I was thinking id follow with destroyers around 30-35 crusers in the 50's and battlecruisers in the 60-75 with the ultimates being my battleship at 100k maybe a carrier of the same size.  now realizing my ship sits around comparable tonnage to battlecruisers and battleships of the WWII era,  im going through a whole new world of second guessing.  


and for fun I decided to try to build a 8k ship to match the one shared and got

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Hydra - Copy class Frigate    8,000 tons     131 Crew     1631.8 BP      TCS 160  TH 280  EM 960
5000 km/s     Armour 3-35     Shields 32-400     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 12     PPV 56.4
Maint Life 2.61 Years     MSP 1255    AFR 256%    IFR 3.6%    1YR 260    5YR 3907    Max Repair 700 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 36 months    Spare Berths 0    
Magazine 260    

TCS M/p Drive 800 (1)    Power 800    Fuel Use 25%    Signature 280    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 22.5 billion km   (52 days at full power)
Ingen Series 4-R400/480 Deflectors (8)   Total Fuel Cost  160 Litres per hour  (3,840 per day)

Quad Gausling R3-25 Cannon Turret (2x12)    Range 30,000km     TS: 25000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
CET FC64-15000 (1)    Max Range: 128,000 km   TS: 15000 km/s     92 84 77 69 61 53 45 37 30 22

Class 1 VLS (260)    Missile Size 1    Hangar Reload 7.5 minutes    MF Reload 1.2 hours
AMFC41-R1 (1)     Range 41.6m km    Resolution 1
Gauntlet AMM Mark II (280)  Speed: 19,200 km/s   End: 3.6m    Range: 4.1m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 281/169/84

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
So I may be able to live with a smaller ship afterall,  maybe set for a 10k 15k and 30k sized fleet of frigates destroyers and cruisers  though I now get into the whole question of less larger ships or more smaller ones. also fuel cells, my origional design im trying to have fuel to run about 100 days at full power and getting the feeling thats way too much.  even the little escort below only has 50 days.  am I worried too much about range?  I do intend to build some tankers but Id like to be able to cruise around 2-3 jump points from a base if possible.

EDIT: I love this,  its now 2076 in my game, 11 years after I set out to build the perfect VLS fleet,  I planned on exploring those wrecks by now,  and what do we have,  designs on drawing boards. this is the perfect government bureaucracy in action and I love it.  the project is overdue, overbudget and oversized.  the people must be getting antsy and maybe a little pissed.  Im learning tons though, more than I realized I needed to learn

[Detjen (OP)]

June 1st 2084 the first living aliens are encountered in Gliese 563.2 two jumpoints away from Earth.  worse the two jumps are gated, the first by an ancient alien gate, and the other by earth itself to bring civilian traffic to the newly terraformed planet of Yuri Gargarian in the Alpha Centari System.  worse still June 4th 2084 the aliens prove hostile, destroying the survey vessel that had met them, the Diamond.  luckily at this point the Confederation had built 6 of the new frigates, and dispatched them immediately to rescue the survivors.  54 of the 113 crew were pulled aboard.  due to the frigates lack of offensive weaponry and the fact that no destroyers or sensor systems had been finished yet the frigates immediately retreated, bringing the survivors to a somber heros welcome back at Earth. it is now March 9th 2086,  for two very tense years diplomatic messages were sent to the aliens while our frigates watched the gate, hoping the tiny anti missile stores would be capable of holding them off if they came through.  but now we have destroyers, and the first cruiser has been approved to be built. the final debate has begun,  for when the Rome has finished being built we will be capable of striking back,  the only question for the confederation is, should we.

So yea, real living aliens now,  blew up my survey vessel a couple days after first contact, and communications with them have been deemed impossible.  I now have a fleet, for better or for worse.
Kobold class Frigate 6 in service (Kobold, Kappa, Pheonix, Hydra, Gorgon, Minotaur)

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   15,000 tons     337 Crew     3081 BP      TCS 300  TH 560  EM 600
5333 km/s    JR 3-50     Armour 3-54     Shields 20-400     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 19     PPV 62.92
Maint Life 3.16 Years     MSP 2155    AFR 199%    IFR 2.8%    1YR 324    5YR 4855    Max Repair 700 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 36 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 240   

Arestech J15000 Series 10     Max Ship Size 15000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
TCS M/p Drive 800 (2)    Power 800    Fuel Use 25%    Signature 280    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 750,000 Litres    Range 36.0 billion km   (78 days at full power)
Ingen Series 4-R400/480 Deflectors (5)   Total Fuel Cost  100 Litres per hour  (2,400 per day)

Twin Sparta 1.5 10cm UV Turret (2x2)    Range 120,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 6-3     RM 4    ROF 10        3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Quad Gausling R3-25 Cannon Turret (2x12)    Range 30,000km     TS: 25000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
CET FC128-7500 (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 7500 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
CET FC64-15000 (1)    Max Range: 128,000 km   TS: 15000 km/s     92 84 77 69 61 53 45 37 30 22
DAZMAR Series 6 SFR (1)     Total Power Output 6    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Class 1 VLS (240)    Missile Size 1    Hangar Reload 7.5 minutes    MF Reload 1.2 hours
AMMFC12-R1 (4)     Range 12.0m km    Resolution 1
Gauntlet AMM Mark II (240)  Speed: 19,200 km/s   End: 3.6m    Range: 4.1m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 281/169/84
Yuri Gargarian class Destroyer  3 in service (Yuri Gargarian, Neil Armstrong, Phillip J Fry)

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15,000 tons     292 Crew     2275 BP      TCS 300  TH 1600  EM 720
5333 km/s    JR 3-50     Armour 3-54     Shields 24-400     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 19     PPV 73.27
Maint Life 2.99 Years     MSP 1853    AFR 199%    IFR 2.8%    1YR 310    5YR 4648    Max Repair 400 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 36 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 425   

Arestech J15000 Series 10     Max Ship Size 15000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
NJPL M/p 800-4 Drive (2)    Power 800    Fuel Use 20%    Signature 800    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 750,000 Litres    Range 45.0 billion km   (97 days at full power)
Ingen Series 4-R400/480 Deflectors (6)   Total Fuel Cost  120 Litres per hour  (2,880 per day)

Twin Sparta 1.5 10cm UV Turret (2x2)    Range 120,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 6-3     RM 4    ROF 10        3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Phalanx CIWS-200 (1x8)    Range 1000 km     TS: 20000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
CET FC128-7500 (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 7500 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
DAZMAR Series 6 SFR (1)     Total Power Output 6    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Class 5 VLS (85)    Missile Size 5    Hangar Reload 37.5 minutes    MF Reload 6.2 hours
ASMFC136-R130 (2)     Range 136.8m km    Resolution 130
Dagger Mark II (85)  Speed: 9,600 km/s   End: 187m    Range: 107.7m km   WH: 9    Size: 5    TH: 140/84/42
Rome class Cruiser  1 planned and in construction (Rome)

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25,000 tons     578 Crew     4205 BP      TCS 500  TH 3200  EM 1200
6400 km/s    JR 3-50     Armour 3-76     Shields 40-400     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 22     PPV 83.73
Maint Life 3.06 Years     MSP 3313    AFR 227%    IFR 3.2%    1YR 530    5YR 7943    Max Repair 400 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 36 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 350   

Arestech J25000 Series 10     Max Ship Size 25000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
NJPL M/p 800-4 Drive (4)    Power 800    Fuel Use 20%    Signature 800    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1,050,000 Litres    Range 37.8 billion km   (68 days at full power)
Ingen Series 4-R400/480 Deflectors (10)   Total Fuel Cost  200 Litres per hour  (4,800 per day)

Triple Sparta 25cm UV Turret (1x3)    Range 256,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 48-18     RM 4    ROF 15        16 16 16 16 12 10 9 8 7 6
Phalanx CIWS-200 (2x8)    Range 1000 km     TS: 20000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
CET FC128-7500 (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 7500 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
DAZMAR series 48 SFR (1)     Total Power Output 48    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Class 5 VLS (60)    Missile Size 5    Hangar Reload 37.5 minutes    MF Reload 6.2 hours
Class 10 VLS (5)    Missile Size 10    Hangar Reload 75 minutes    MF Reload 12.5 hours
ASMFC136-R130 (2)     Range 136.8m km    Resolution 130
Dagger Mark II (50)  Speed: 9,600 km/s   End: 187m    Range: 107.7m km   WH: 9    Size: 5    TH: 140/84/42
Longbow Mark II (10)  Speed: 28,800 km/s   End: 56.6m    Range: 97.7m km   WH: 12    Size: 10    TH: 230/138/69

ASSMR231-R100 (1)     GPS 21000     Range 231.0m km    Resolution 100

[Charlie Beeler]

What are you using for Active Sensors? I don't see any on either the Kobold or Gargarian designs.  MFC's do not function as detection systems, only guidance.

By having jumpdrives on each warship you have severely cut into your available hullspaces for weapons.  My opinion is that they will not fair well against ships in the same tonnage range. 

Something else to consider, for a squadron transit they will need to be in separate TG's if memory serves. It's been a long time since I tried a squadron transit with multiple ships in a TG with jumpdrives and at that time it generated several errors related to too many JD's in the same TG.

[Detjen (OP)]

  Oh yea the tonnage does hurt an extra 1000 is a pain but that was an RP desire of mine,  also they transit normally so theres no issue with multiple jump drives in a fleet.   however there will have to be a courtmarsal.

 My active senser was on the Rome,  the cruiser was acting as the sensor command ship, and in my haste to build and meet my threat head on...  i left out a resultion one sensor.  I sent my fleet to Bernards star in effort to scavenge some of the wrecks I found there and found the Gleise aliens waiting for me.  so eager to engage we jumped forwards.  two ships of 9250 tons that ran at only 4324.  my fleet at 5300 could easly catch them, and so we charged forward,  then about an hour into the chase as they were moving into range, bam we were suddenly bombarded by unexpected weaponry.  At first panic set in and I ordered a retreat, but I realized as my frigates were now usless being unable to target the missiles we were slowly being whittled away.  I realized escape wasnt likley if they had enough missiles, so we turned about again and charged in.  luckly they ran out,  but not before the Minotaur was destroyed. 106 surviors out of 337.  Six more were killed on the heavly damaged Gorgon and while the Rome itself had its shields knocked out only two squares of armor were damaged.  both alien ships destroyd with no lifeboats.  the Armstrong is out of ammo, and the others are fairly low, save for the frigates which still have all of their AMM missiles.  lets hope theres some tech retrived to make it worth 237 Terran lives lost in this travesty of a battle.  Really the salvos were like four missiles apeice, and I couldnt target any of them with AMM's because there was no resolution one active sensor,  the frigates were nothing more than expensive targets.


EDIT  YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING MEEEE.  I sent my Vulture class scavenger into the system to start scaveging off the hulk of the big wreck,  only somewhere between the jump point and the safty of my fleet it was hit by a hidden gleise alien.  118 surviors out of 369.  the Bernard's Star system is turning into a nightmare, im pulling all ships out till I fix my blindness and get some greater ships.
488 lives lost in the system now.  with potentially more as I race to grab the lifepods of the 118 and try to get out of system

[Charlie Beeler]

Last week I had not reverse engineered your tech...yet.  If I’m reading your ship designs correctly it appears that this is some of the tech your empire has available:

Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology -    6 power per hs for powerplants
Magneto-plasma Drive Technology -    16 propulsion points per hs
Fuel Consumption: 0.4 Litres per Engine Power Hour
Maximum Engine Power Modifier x1.5
Jump Point Theory
Max Squadron Jump Radius - 50k (Size x 1.0)
Max Jump Squadron Size - 3 (Size x 1.0)
Jump Drive Efficiency 10
Capacitor Recharge Rate 6
Beam Fire Control Range 32,000 km
Fire Control Speed Rating 5,000 km/s
Thermal Sensor Sensitivity 11
Active Grav Sensor Strength 21
EM Sensor Sensitivity 11
Turret Tracking Speed (10% Gear) 5,000 km/s
25cm Laser Focal Size
Ultraviolet Laser
Gauss Cannon Rate of Fire 4
Gauss Cannon Launch Velocity 3
Box Launcher 0.15 Size / 15x (No internal reload)
Two-stage Thermonuclear Warhead: Strength: 6 x MSP
Missile Agility 80 per MSP
Shield Regeneration Rate 4
Theta Shields -    4 points per hullspace
Laminate Composite Armour -   12 points per hullspace
Damage Control -   4 points per hullspace
Thermal Reduction: Signature 35% Normal

Based on the above I infer that you don’t have Electronic Warfare researched.  This is a critical tech for long range missile warfare.  At the very least you need ECCM to burn through OPFOR ECM.  For each level of ECM you don’t offset with ECCM you lose 10% of you MFC range.

Hopefully you have researched Max Tracking Time Bonus vs Missiles.  This tech is used by your beam point defense to offset tracking penalties that are calculated when you tracking speed is lower than the targeted missiles speed.  It accrues at 2% per 5second impulse that a missile is detected by active sensors.

If I’ve got your jumpdrive tech identified correctly your Kobold and Gargarian classes Arestech J15000 Series 10 jumpdrives are 1,500tons/(30hs) not 1,000tons/(20hs) but are much smaller that the starting 3,750tons/(75hs) I’d assumed when I posted last week.  So many players seem to only research the minimum tech for jumpdrives and then go back to maindrive research. 

I’m a firm believer in designing combat squadrons.  What this means in my design protocols is for each warship class there is a secondary class that replaces part of the offensive suite with a jumpdrive.  The jumpdrive Squadron size dictates the makeup of the minimum task group.  By keeping the jump radius/squadron size/efficiency techs moderately close to matching levels you can have effective jump assault teams.

As Hawkeye pointed out, your missiles are way too slow for the tech you’re using.  Yes, the hit chances Gauntlet/Dagger/Longbow missiles have are very good.  The ASM’s are going to be very easy to intercept by lower techs than you’re currently using (actually your Longbow is only a little below where it should be).  Worse, the AMM should be facing ASM’s with at least 24k/kps of speed, meaning that there is a significant chance that you won’t generate an intercept at all. (There is a sequence of play issue here that has not been resolved yet)  With Magneto-plasma Drive Technology missiles your speeds for both ASM/AMM should be north of 30k/kps .

Active Sensors/Missile Fire Control:  At a bare minimum each warship should carry an active sensor suite that lets it engage targets at maximum range.  There are some design caveats though. 

•   Unless you know the OPFOR’s speed use your own for determining range. 
•   Match AS and MFC resolutions.
•   When determining the needed detection/engagement range assume a meeting engagement.

The reason to assume a meeting engagement is this is where you will need the longest range for missiles to intercept at maximum range.  This does assume that your target will continue to close.  Works best when you can arrange for the OPFOR to be in a stern chase trying to catch you.

[Detjen (OP)]

Could it be that im aiming to have my missiles hit chances so high that im losing speed trying to give them maneuverability? my size 5 ASM has a 101% chance on a 5km/s ship and 50.9 on a 10km/s.  my size 10 is 155% and 77.8%.  i must be defenatly wasting agility with the 155% chance at 5km for a missile thats size 10.    whats the hit chances you tend to go for?  is there a suggested ratio in the four stats of a missiles design?

You are right about the lack of ECM and ECCM,  i have started researching that though intending to put that on my next generation of ships.  Tracking bonus is there but small I need to research that one a bit more though thankfully I never needed to test my PD in combat this time around. 

In my next gen of ships I am aiming for longer ranged weaponry and using the Interal Confinement Fusion drives,  Im not sure whats a good ship speed for these kinds of engines I was thinking about building my fleet around a 6500- 7000 km/s base

[Charlie Beeler]

I try to keep to hit chance at least 80% for my target speed, obviously 100% in better. 

As far as ratio goes it's a bit subjective based on the tech available.  The single biggest tool I for missile design is a modelling spreadsheet.  It handles engine size, drive tech, fuel consumption, power modifier, missile size, number of engines, fuel, warhead, missile agility, and armor.  I can play around with the variables until I find a combination to actually commit research too. 

The spreadsheet is a work-in-progress and still requires a lot of manual tweeking for things that I should have automated long ago.  So it's not available for distribution.  The bulk of the formula's needed to build your own are in the discussion topic in mechanics for v5.7/v6.0 from last year.  From there the program has a quirk in the rounding for agility/maneuver rating that I've spelled out in several posts over the last couple of years.  Couple that with drive, agility, fuel consumption, modifier, and warhead tech progression and you're golden.

For the most part I only have two missile classes: size 1 AMM and size 4 ASM. 

The loose protocol for AMM is a 1pt warhead, maximum size engine is remaining space, and finally adjusting agility while maintaining a desired range.  The range is usually determined based on anticipated missile speeds to intercept with at least 30-45 seconds for followup salvos if needed.

The loose protocol for ASM is 25% msp to warhead, similar engine requirement to AMM protocol with range being roughly matched to MFC range.

[Jorgen_CAB]

I really like the style of these ships and I usually run with something similar.

I usually build slightly bigger ships than I see most people building in AAR and in this forum. My role-playing reasoning being that ships in space would be bigger than earthbound ships based on the fact that engines and fuel would take up a much larger part of the ship than any earth counterpart and that space is much more dangerous so will need ships that is more self sufficient.

I also go with the rather realistic approach of VLS launching systems but I rely on 25% sized launchers with no additional magazines on the ship, so one missile per launcher is the maximum. I really think that any ship out in space that is big would be able to replenish missiles from a collier ship. The time to reload is so high anyway that the process becomes pretty realistic. I usually make a replenish attempt to take at least a few hours if the launchers is ready to fire and I want to swap out missiles.

I also go with rather big launchers for ASM size 8-12. Missiles will usually be between 2-12. Smaller missiles will be constructed into a MIRV type that basically separate directly after launch.

I design missiles based on the type of ship they intend to be shot at.

Smaller missiles (2-4) is for smaller and faster ships with a lower yield. These missiles have high agility and are usually fire at ships with poor PD/AMM capacity, such as fighters, FAC, scout ships.

Medium ASM 6-8 are used against bigger ships at medium range perhaps 100-200m km while larger missiles 10-12 is long range heavy missiles for artillery barrages.

I rarely engage an enemy without trying to scout them out first (if I can) to get as much information out of them as possible so I can design missiles (ships/sensors) as efficient as possible. I aim for a to hit ratio around 80%. My ships experience will usually make the actual to hit close to 100%.

I mainly go for a strong beam PD defense with AMM only for emergency when enemy salvos are overwhelming. Therefore I can comfortably use 25% small size 1 launchers. Although I might sometime argue with myself on the validity on that decision because that might not be how it would be done in reality.

In most modern missile equipped naval warships magazine launched missiles have been replaced to box launched missiles. Although, I'm pretty sure that naval ships could replenish their missiles at sea if necessary, but don't quote me on that...
I'm not entirely sure why magazine stored missiles was replaced, but I'm pretty sure it has to do with accessibility and ease of replacement. Also the fact that box launched ordnance can hold a much broader variety of missiles than magazine stored ones. Something Aurora don't model very well though if that is the case.