Author Topic: Slowing down research  (Read 3379 times)

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Offline roug (OP)

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Slowing down research
« on: May 16, 2020, 12:16:43 PM »
Hi i am thinking of starting a new game with slow research. Will this also affect the npr?
 
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Offline Pedroig

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Re: Slowing down research
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2020, 12:18:25 PM »
research rate is universal
si vis pacem, para bellum
 
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Offline kenlon

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Re: Slowing down research
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2020, 12:56:50 PM »
I wiuld highly recommend that you also increase the minerals of your starting planet in proportion top how much you cut research rate.
 
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Offline amram

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Re: Slowing down research
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2020, 10:06:39 AM »
I wiuld highly recommend that you also increase the minerals of your starting planet in proportion top how much you cut research rate.

I didn't, went with 20% research, normal minerals, 10% survey.  I'm finding it interesting having to actually deal with resource collection issues for a change. 

Usually you can ramp up mining production to a point where a few mines can get you by, so its easy enough to have the infrastructure needed to maintain an empire, and a little effort lets you afford some warmongering to go with it.  it doesn't even matter if your mining is focused on low accessible planets, or scattered across multiple reasonable planets, you have enough to be so spread out.

With slow research, that's not so easy, the mines take ages to improve appreciably in performance. With a small population, there is a small industrial base to improve collection via quantity.   With low performance and low quantity, where you put the mines matters.

Its made aurora interesting in a new way this time around.  I can't turtle, I'll run out of resources at low tech levels.  I can't race into the stars because I'll get plastered by the first spoiler I encounter.  I'm not even sure I can meet an NPR on equal footing so I'm concerned I'll encounter one before I start feeling some breathing room mineral wise.  Every move requires a little thought, lest I topple the house of cards.

I like feeling like space is big and scary for a change.
 
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Offline skoormit

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Re: Slowing down research
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2020, 09:45:47 PM »
I didn't, went with 20% research, normal minerals, 10% survey. 

Same here, but starting in a random system rather than Sol.
It feels like a different game.

I'm 25 years in and just had a NPR tell me that I should pack up and leave the Dagger system.
But that's the best system I've found! The only reasonable long-term source of Corundium. The best near-hab planet with more than trivial minerals. And only 15B km from home--which means my freighters can make a round trip in less than a year.

So there's going to be a fight.
Me with my 15cm Near Ultraviolet lasers and RoF 2, Velo 10k Gauss cannons. Protected by Composite Armour and Regen-1 Beta Shields.
Them with, hopefully, nothing more than large rocks and mean words.
 

Offline consiefe

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Re: Slowing down research
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2020, 09:48:45 PM »
I didn't, went with 20% research, normal minerals, 10% survey. 

Same here, but starting in a random system rather than Sol.
It feels like a different game.

I'm 25 years in and just had a NPR tell me that I should pack up and leave the Dagger system.
But that's the best system I've found! The only reasonable long-term source of Corundium. The best near-hab planet with more than trivial minerals. And only 15B km from home--which means my freighters can make a round trip in less than a year.

So there's going to be a fight.
Me with my 15cm Near Ultraviolet lasers and RoF 2, Velo 10k Gauss cannons. Protected by Composite Armour and Regen-1 Beta Shields.
Them with, hopefully, nothing more than large rocks and mean words.

Haha, I want to read the outcome of that tribal clash. :)
 

Offline vorpal+5

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Re: Slowing down research
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2020, 10:15:38 PM »
I didn't, went with 20% research, normal minerals, 10% survey. 
<..>
Them with, hopefully, nothing more than large rocks and mean words.
You mean they already mastered sending relativistic-speed asteroids against enemy worlds?  ;D
 
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Offline amram

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Re: Slowing down research
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2020, 12:44:50 AM »
I didn't, went with 20% research, normal minerals, 10% survey. 

Same here, but starting in a random system rather than Sol.
It feels like a different game.

I'm 25 years in and just had a NPR tell me that I should pack up and leave the Dagger system.
But that's the best system I've found! The only reasonable long-term source of Corundium. The best near-hab planet with more than trivial minerals. And only 15B km from home--which means my freighters can make a round trip in less than a year.

So there's going to be a fight.
Me with my 15cm Near Ultraviolet lasers and RoF 2, Velo 10k Gauss cannons. Protected by Composite Armour and Regen-1 Beta Shields.
Them with, hopefully, nothing more than large rocks and mean words.

Its strange having the early mid game more than century after the start.  Only got Ion drives, particle lance, particle beam 6, particle range 240, capacitor 5, grav 28, em 14, BFC range 64, BFC speed 5000, 80 AGI/msp, warhead 6, duranium armor, research 500, and that's pretty much it for a over a century's effort.

I've got a couple dozen 5,000 ton FAC's, mostly aiming to smash an opponent in the opening strike with a massive missile barrage., limited ability to stop a counter strike, and the beginnings of a beam force.  I've explored 30 systems and only just had an encounter, and I'm not certain its an NPR, all spoilers are active.  There are two NPR's since game start between 15 and 75 LY, I've met neither.  Like you, I can only hope they're just as feeble as I am when we finally meet, it'll be a rough war if they aren't hurt by the opening strike - I can throw 720 ASM's out to 100mkm in one salvo - then run like hell and hope I have enough time to reload the box launchers.....or that the growing number of particle lance FAC's can keep the line.

Hopelessly short of Neutronium, Mercassium, and Corundium - plenty of prospected stocks(well over 10 million in every mineral, though low accessibility and scattered all over), but limited mining to capitalise.  I started with 800CI, getting enough mining capacity, while struggling to progress in shipyards, factories, research labs.  Now have 120 labs, 800 factories, and 300 mines and almost 700 auto mines.

127 years and I'm still being pulled in every direction, and endless list of priorities still, not one I'm satisfied is being met yet.
 
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Offline skoormit

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Re: Slowing down research
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2020, 07:10:48 AM »
I didn't, went with 20% research, normal minerals, 10% survey. 

Same here, but starting in a random system rather than Sol.
It feels like a different game.

I'm 25 years in and just had a NPR tell me that I should pack up and leave the Dagger system.
But that's the best system I've found! The only reasonable long-term source of Corundium. The best near-hab planet with more than trivial minerals. And only 15B km from home--which means my freighters can make a round trip in less than a year.

So there's going to be a fight.
Me with my 15cm Near Ultraviolet lasers and RoF 2, Velo 10k Gauss cannons. Protected by Composite Armour and Regen-1 Beta Shields.
Them with, hopefully, nothing more than large rocks and mean words.

Haha, I want to read the outcome of that tribal clash. :)

Also, after carefully rereading the details for the C# diplomacy system, I realized that the NPR is not making a threat on an imminent attack.
It is more accurate to say that they have seen my considerable presence (two colonies, 11+M pop, a dozen or more freighters coming and going at any point in time) in this valuable system, and they have not seen anything at all that scares them (a half-dozen survey ships, literally zero armed ships).
Therefore they think we should leave, because they have pointy sticks and we don't, and it would be better if they did not have to poke us with them.

So I think all I need to do is show them some pointy sticks. The sooner the better.
I decided I did not have time to finish the research for Near-Ult Lasers--would have needed 25 labs (of my 51 total) for 15 months.

I'm now researching the prototypes for these:
Code: [Select]
Spike class Point Defence Base (P)      10,318 tons       376 Crew       1,139.9 BP       TCS 206    TH 0    EM 0
1 km/s      Armour 9-42       Shields 0-0       HTK 131      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 4      PPV 116.6
Maint Life 7.76 Years     MSP 1,076    AFR 213%    IFR 3.0%    1YR 32    5YR 474    Max Repair 33.36 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   


15.0cm C2 Visible Light Laser (18)    Range 120,000km     TS: 2,000 km/s     Power 6-2     RM 20,000 km    ROF 15        6 6 4 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Quad Gauss Cannon R100-17.00 Turret 8km/s (4x8)    Range 10,000km     TS: 8000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 10,000 km    ROF 5        1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Beam Fire Control R12-TS8000 (3)     Max Range: 12,000 km   TS: 8,000 km/s     17 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Beam Fire Control R192-TS2000 (3)     Max Range: 192,000 km   TS: 2,000 km/s     47 45 42 40 37 34 32 29 27 24
Pebble Bed Reactor R8 (5)     Total Power Output 40.5    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor AS1-R1 (3)     GPS 2     Range 1.4m km    MCR 124.4k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

I will deploy these in groups of three to guard the jump point and probably also place one at each of the two colonies.
This is only possible because I have already built a 10kt naval yard with 3 slipways (I start with zero yards; it takes a long time to develop shipbuilding capacity).

As soon as I have these in place, I will issue a kind request to the bugs to leave this system to me.
Maybe we can avoid a fight after all.

If I had been playing with a higher tech rate, I would likely be taking a very different approach.
 

Offline amram

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Re: Slowing down research
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2020, 10:49:18 AM »
Likewise, I've had my first contact with a hostile NPR.

They can simply outrun my first generation ASM's, but no real shock there, I can outrun them too.  The second generation has no issues running them down, but was designed for 80% chance with a 7650km/sec target in mind, they do 8165, so they perform well enough.  Especially when I throw 38 from every FAC I bring.

Speaking of, I've taken losses.  They seem to have superior tech to me - their AMM's can do 100kkm/sec, while mine can only do 37.7kkm/s.  Their ASM's do 41kkm/sec and 8 damage, while my latest designs, which I've not even researched yet would only achieve 4 damage and 9.63kkm/sec.  Though both of us seem woefully unable to stop the other's missiles, and both seem to be fielding approximately equal ranges, so I've pushed out to 150mkm.

They definitely lead me in ECM/ECCM, since I have none as yet, and I could not engage them at 100mkm as designed, only 73mkm, so I suspect ECM 3 is in use, and intel confirms it.

They've smashed a few of my smaller asteroid automine colonies, and wiped out mercury, which at one point was my main offworld mining location.  Its not critical to me at this time, so it hurts, but isn't fatal.  Only one civilian cargo ship has been taken out as well.

I lost 11 missile FAC, and damage to the other 5, 4 of which needed to do damage control where they took the hit to get their engines back online and limp home.  The Gauss FAC were wholly ineffective, designed when the best my FC could do was 16kkm/sec, its all the turrets could do too.  So barely 1/3 chance from speed, 1/4 chance from the gauss being 25%, and possible ECM on the missiles they use, they often don't even fire.  They did get kills, but rather than max range and run, they had to close to 73mkm, and are not fast, they were designed when the best I could do was 3/4 what the enemy now does.

The destroyers I had managed to get built saved my bacon.  Not only can they do 8606km/sec, 500km/sec faster than the enemy, enough to run them down and close range, but I expected a brawl, so I piled on 2 20HS shields for 170hp, and 6 layers of armor.  That saved me.  I had 9 destroyers, 5 particle lance, 3 gauss, and one passive recon destroyer, which meant I could absorb up to 1500 damage, without taking an armor hit, and I did withdraw any destroyer that was being hammered hard.  Couple that with them blowing their ASM load on smashing mercury, some of my mining, and much less combat capable FAC's, and the destroyers only had to worry about the AMM's, which they fielded in fairly sizeable numbers.

They also had what intel says are railguns, with a range nearly 50% greater than ours, having been seen to fire at 353kkm with RoF20, while we have only 240kkm and RoF40.  However, they bring 7x4 damage, and we bring 6x12 damage, and they have the railgun damage profile, and we have the particle lance profile, I typically got penetrations while they did not.

I have smashed 70,000 tons of warship, while losing 50,000 of my own, and only one of the destroyers that did most of the work.  That said, nearly every ship had damage, and their latest missile strike fleet simply walked home, I was too mauled to chase them while under railgun barrage without risking all my combat ability.

So now begins the crash course - we need the next FC techs, both tracking and range. We need ECCM 3 or better, to offset the penalties they have imposed.  We need magneto plasma engines(have Ion), so ensure we can still chase down our foes, and we need more particle beam range, 240kkm is a bit short at the moment.

Plus then we need to get those ships built....

At least I can refit the firecontrols into place much more quickly.  Kinda happy I spent the last year or so with every single lab tech manning a lab doing something, to get them all improving, I have so many high quality techs now.

And salvage, I have enemy wrecks to salvage, which if I can get to that quickly enough will assist my research efforts.

So many priorities still....I have probably lost this game, time will tell - it wasn't a mineral rich earth, and I took only 100m people into the game.
 
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Offline vorpal+5

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Re: Slowing down research
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2020, 10:31:17 PM »
You have only lost when Earth is nuked! Or at least you see an overpowering enemy combat fleet in Sol ... Perhaps they will not press?
 

Offline sneer

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Re: Slowing down research
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2020, 01:38:42 AM »
it is not a loss
it is an interesting game
now you have challenge and good motivation to play ;)
 

Offline amram

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Re: Slowing down research
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2020, 10:01:35 PM »
Certainly was a fun fight.  I was in the midst of a mineral crunch when we met, and didn't have the mass to sit on the jump point and prevent them from entering sol, though I could engage them and clear them out when I noticed them.

I was being very sparing with my mineral runs since all of my critical mining was happening out of system, and I lacked enough ships to escort the freighters - I was making escorted freighter runs to coincide with each time I smashed one of their fleets since I figured there was not likely to be anyone in the system to see me do it.  Was trying to get a salvager out, and had it mostly built to take advantage of all the mineral donations I'd been given, but didn't quite make it in time.

The swarm showed up and kicked my face in, lol.  I had allowed the NPR's to trigger spoilers, and since I was almost on par with the NPR they came through, I figure they watched his fleet enter my system, and followed him in and found me.  I was still licking my wounds from my last NPR fight and kinda got steamrolled.

In any event, I'm sold on the slower research, my default start now is 10% research and 2% survey, and often I don't mess with the mineral count on earth.  The science labs, and decent commanders matter when surveying - as does putting more than one survey module, or more than one ship in the system.
 

Offline Gabethebaldandbold

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Re: Slowing down research
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2020, 10:18:45 PM »
alright you guys have convinced me, next campaign will be 20% research and even less survey. I will start conventional though, and go into magneto plasma, because otherwise I just cant get a feel for what a decent ship feels like. also main guns will be plasma. I have been having lots of fun using plasma, makes your ground units good much faster.
To beam, or not to beam.   That is the question
the answer is you beam. and you better beam hard.
 

Offline liveware

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Re: Slowing down research
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2020, 10:33:51 PM »
I wiuld highly recommend that you also increase the minerals of your starting planet in proportion top how much you cut research rate.
++1

I discovered this was necessary the hard way about 250 years into a 'slow' campaign.

Slow research is definitely more fun in my opinion. Makes each new tech much more of a strategic achievement.

I might also suggest a lower starting population to add more interesting build up early on. I started a 10m initial population game recently... it took a while to get anywhere but that was half the fun :-)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 10:36:21 PM by liveware »
Open the pod-bay doors HAL...
 
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