Author Topic: Planetary Defense Force Regiment  (Read 2365 times)

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Offline Borealis4x (OP)

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Planetary Defense Force Regiment
« on: January 26, 2021, 02:15:38 PM »
What advice do you have for making and effective Planetary Defense Force? I try to give every planet of consequence at least a full 25,000 ton Regiment of PDF troops consisting of 4 regular PDF battalions and a STO Command totaling 4,000 tons each. They also bring a 1000 ton Construction Company as well. This gives the planet some ability to defend itself in orbit and on the ground.

I originally made every company almost exclusively out of Static Heavy Weapons since why not? I figure if an enemy attacks my planet I'd much rather keep them occupied in a protracted siege until I can relive them with outside forces rather than risk losing the garrison and the planet in a counter-attack. But I thought it was kinda unrealistic how the entire garrison was made of heavy weapons only and some infantry, and was worried that the relative lack of 'shots' the garrison could take would lead to it being overwhelmed. So a typical PDF battalion has 3 standard PDF Infantry Companies and 1 PDF 'Strongpoint' with all the Heavy Weapons wrapped in Heavy Armor.

Code: [Select]
PDF Company
Transport Size: 1,000 tons
Build Cost: 30.3 BP
1x PDF Company HQ
98x PDF Guardsman
25x PDF Anti-Personnel Team
10x PDF Anti-Vehical Team
2x PDF Anti-Aircraft Team

Code: [Select]
PDF Strongpoint
Transport Size: 997 tons
Build Cost: 54 BP
1x PDF Company HQ
39x PDF Guardsman
9x Heavy Anti-Personel Emplacement
6x Heavy Anti-Vehical Emplacement
2x Heavy Anti-Air Emplacement

They are supported by a PDF Support Battalion made up of AA and Arty batteries.

Code: [Select]
PDF Artillery Battery
Transport Size: 946 tons
Build Cost: 56.8 BP
1x PDF Company HQ
13x Heavy Artillery Emplacement

Code: [Select]
PDF Anti-Air Battery
Transport Size: 946 tons
Build Cost: 56.8 BP
1x PDF Company HQ
13x Heavy Anti-Air Emplacement

Finally, we have the STO command which is comprised of 3 STO Batteries and 1 Orbital Point-Defense (OPD) battery.

Code: [Select]
STO Battery
Transport Size: 934 tons
Build Cost: 597.8 BP
1x PDF Company HQ
2x 18.75cm STO Laser Emplacment

Code: [Select]
OPD Battery
Transport Size: 813 tons
Build Cost: 548.6 BP
1x PDF Company HQ
3x Quad Gauss Cannon R400-10 PD Emplacement

I've attached an image showing off the full stats of the combined Regiment.

I opted not to include any Forward Observes since I don't think I'd ever want to destroy my own planets with dust and I'm pretty sure Ground Fighters would be destroyed by any invading fleet anyways since they can't 'hide' on the planet to the best of my knowledge.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Planetary Defense Force Regiment
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2021, 02:39:08 PM »
You're going to run into commander problems pretty quickly I think. A 25,000-ton total formation built out of 25 1,000-ton sub-formations is going to need 25 ground forces commanders, and one usually starts a campaign with around 50-60 of these. Granted you generate more over time but once you start having more than just 1-2 "planets of consequence" you'll need an awful lot of commanders and this is before you even start planning your offensive forces (which regularly need to be in the 100,000s if not millions of tons to take a planet).

I originally made every company almost exclusively out of Static Heavy Weapons since why not? I figure if an enemy attacks my planet I'd much rather keep them occupied in a protracted siege until I can relive them with outside forces rather than risk losing the garrison and the planet in a counter-attack. But I thought it was kinda unrealistic how the entire garrison was made of heavy weapons only and some infantry, and was worried that the relative lack of 'shots' the garrison could take would lead to it being overwhelmed. So a typical PDF battalion has 3 standard PDF Infantry Companies and 1 PDF 'Strongpoint' with all the Heavy Weapons wrapped in Heavy Armor.

The main issue with heavy weapons is that they are very often overkill. If the enemy lands just INF and VEH for instance then MAV would be fine to kill the VEH (at equal tech) and HAV is overkilling them thus wasting tonnage that could be given to more guns.

A general principle of Aurora ground forces is that offensive forces should be optimized for tonnage efficiency as transportation is the limiting factor in their deployment, but defensive forces should be optimized for build-cost efficiency as transportation is usually not the limiting factor on defense. In practice of course once can easily out-build their command capacity especially early on, but later in the game when it becomes necessary to continually upgrade forces to the latest models command capacity will catch up - doubly so if your base formation sizes also grow over time as while one might begin the game with 5,000-ton battalions, as troop tonnages reach into the millions larger base formations become more practical.

Thus for defensive forces, you usually don't want to think in terms of deploying the heaviest weapons you can, but as many as possible of the cheapest weapons that will (probably) do the job. Not only does this often mean using MAV, MB, MAA instead of HAV, HB, HAA but also using less than the maximum armor on your static weapons (trusting in fortification and base HP to do most of the work and assuming that a weapon which overmatches your HP will also overmatch your armor anyways).

As a last aside, your STOs probably do not need HQ elements as they do not benefit from the ground combat commander stats except for "Tactical" which does not seem to be common and most commanders will have other stats that benefit your ground troops who need them anyways while rarely does an outcome hinge on getting that extra 5% out of your STOs.
 

Offline Borealis4x (OP)

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Re: Planetary Defense Force Regiment
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2021, 03:02:52 PM »
You're going to run into commander problems pretty quickly I think. A 25,000-ton total formation built out of 25 1,000-ton sub-formations is going to need 25 ground forces commanders, and one usually starts a campaign with around 50-60 of these. Granted you generate more over time but once you start having more than just 1-2 "planets of consequence" you'll need an awful lot of commanders and this is before you even start planning your offensive forces (which regularly need to be in the 100,000s if not millions of tons to take a planet).

I originally made every company almost exclusively out of Static Heavy Weapons since why not? I figure if an enemy attacks my planet I'd much rather keep them occupied in a protracted siege until I can relive them with outside forces rather than risk losing the garrison and the planet in a counter-attack. But I thought it was kinda unrealistic how the entire garrison was made of heavy weapons only and some infantry, and was worried that the relative lack of 'shots' the garrison could take would lead to it being overwhelmed. So a typical PDF battalion has 3 standard PDF Infantry Companies and 1 PDF 'Strongpoint' with all the Heavy Weapons wrapped in Heavy Armor.


I know I'll run into this problem, but I feel that since I model down to the LT. rank for my navy I have to do the equivalent for my ground forces, which is Captain. And that means I feel the need to actually use Captains so they aren't sitting around doing the odd Construction Company or Marine Combat Team job once in a while; I have to model my forces down to the Company level for them to have enough assignments. But as you point out, that leaves far too many relative to their spawn rate and makes for a micro-management nightmare.

The former could be solved by just upping the spawn rate of ground officers, which imo should be even higher than the navy since I assume the army would be less selective. The latter could be mitigated if Steve adds a way for us to train entire extended formations all at once using a saved Template of Templates.

Of course, I wouldn't feel compelled to model down to the Company rank in the first place if HQ's had billets for lower-ranked officers to fill. A quick Google search tells me that a typical Battalion HQ has an XO position as well as 6 other lower-ranked officers serving in various roles. If an HQ had just two extra roles for officers plus an XO, I think that would be enough to keep everyone busy.   
 
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Offline Droll

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Re: Planetary Defense Force Regiment
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2021, 03:05:35 PM »
Of course, I wouldn't feel compelled to model down to the Company rank in the first place if HQ's had billets for lower-ranked officers to fill. A quick Google search tells me that a typical Battalion HQ has an XO position as well as 6 other lower-ranked officers serving in various roles. If an HQ had just two extra roles for officers plus an XO, I think that would be enough to keep everyone busy.

It would be great to have some sort of "bridge crew" equivalent to ground forces - it would mean that I don't feel the pressure to model down do company level. I had to spend 2 hours of gameplay to train 2 divisions of 1M tons each.
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: Planetary Defense Force Regiment
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2021, 03:18:46 PM »
You forgot logistics.  I'm also not seeing any higher command.  I guess maybe you have them and just didn't post them.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Planetary Defense Force Regiment
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2021, 03:20:27 PM »
Ground forces commanders are in an awkward spot because they were given the same superficial treatment as naval commanders in the move from VB6 but the mechanics aren't there yet. The old 4:1 ratio between ranks worked wonderfully for modeling realistic force structures because it supported the ubiquitous triangular structure (three line formations, a support/heavy weapons formation, and these under a command/HQ formation) very well. The current 3:1 ratio is frankly atrocious, it may look like it fits a triangular structure but it does not because you can't get enough commanders to also have the heavy weapons formations, so you either have to use "triangular" structures with only the line formations (any support is thus part of the HQ formation - which really minimizes the value of artillery-spec commanders) or use binary formations which are obsolete for good reasons. 4:1 was much better but the best would be 2:1 like the naval commands but with HQ officers below the commander as Borealis mentions.
 

Offline Borealis4x (OP)

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Re: Planetary Defense Force Regiment
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2021, 03:42:39 PM »
You should be able to select what types of officers to include in your HQ, just like how you can select different Command and Control modules in ships. Here are some examples:

Executive Officer: Applies Ground Combat Training bonus. Commander must be 2 ranks higher than the lowest ground unit commander rank.

Operations Officer: Applies all Ground Combat bonuses. Commander must be 1 rank higher than lowest ground unit commander rank.

Logistics Officer: Applies Ground Combat Logistics bonus. Commander must be 1 rank higher than lowest ground unit commander rank.

Communications Officer: Applies Ground Combat Maneuver bonus. Commander must be 1 rank higher than lowest ground unit commander rank.

Science Officer: Applies Survey and Xenoarchaeology bonus. Commander must be 1 rank higher than lowest ground unit commander rank.

In order to keep junior officers from being assigned to the general staff of big units such as Army HQs, the range of possible candidates for a staff officer position will be limited to leaders 3 ranks below the CO. So a Colonel commanding a Regiment can have a Communications Officer who is a Captain, but a General commanding an Army can only choose from Brigadier Generals and up to staff a similar role.

This is necessary since there isn't any hard limit on the level of officer than can command a single formation, unlike ships which can only be led by O-4s and below unless you manually assign higher-ranked officers.
   



« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 03:59:46 PM by Borealis4x »
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Planetary Defense Force Regiment
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2021, 03:51:04 PM »
You should be able to select what types of officers to include in your HQ, just like how you can select different Command and Control modules in ships. Here are some examples:

Executive Officer: Applies Ground Combat Training bonus. Commander must be 2 ranks higher than the lowest ground unit commander rank.

Operations Officer: Applies all Ground Combat bonus. Commander must be 1 rank higher than lowest ground unit commander rank.

Logistics Officer: Applies Ground Combat Logistics bonus. Commander must be 1 rank higher than lowest ground unit commander rank.

Communications Officer: Applies Ground Combat Maneuver bonus. Commander must be 1 rank higher than lowest ground unit commander rank.

Science Officer: Applies Survey and Xenoarchaeology bonus. Commander must be 1 rank higher than lowest ground unit commander rank.

In order to keep junior officers from being assigned to the general staff of big units such as Army HQs, the range of possible candidates for a staff officer position will be limited to leaders 3 ranks below the CO. So a Colonel commanding a Regiment can have a Communications Officer who is a Captain, but a General commanding and Army can only choose from Brigadier Generals and up to staff a similar role.

This is necessary since there isn't any hard limit on the level of officer than can command a single formation, unlike ships which can only be led by O-4s and below unless you manually assign higher-ranked officers.
 

I would probably keep it simpler, and just have the required rank be directly below the formation's listed (not necessarily actual) commander rank, since unlike warships we do have subordinate formations in a hierarchy as part of the mechanics (where subfleets don't really have "superior" formations so are not that similar). Note that while there is no hard limit, it is of the same nature as warships as far as auto-assign goes i.e. a commander will not be assigned to a formation with a minimum rank lower than their own unless you do it manually yourself.

This would work out naturally as you have e.g. Lt. Colonels commanding a battalion assisted by Majors, Brigadiers commanding a brigade assisted by Colonels, and Lt. Generals commanding a corps assisted by Maj. Generals. Then set the rank ratio to 2:1 just as for naval officers and maybe bump up the generation rate a bit (currently is 5 officers per academy per year, bumping up to 6 with most of the new generation being ground forces) and we're in great shape.
 

Offline Borealis4x (OP)

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Re: Planetary Defense Force Regiment
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2021, 03:56:49 PM »
You should be able to select what types of officers to include in your HQ, just like how you can select different Command and Control modules in ships. Here are some examples:

Executive Officer: Applies Ground Combat Training bonus. Commander must be 2 ranks higher than the lowest ground unit commander rank.

Operations Officer: Applies all Ground Combat bonus. Commander must be 1 rank higher than lowest ground unit commander rank.

Logistics Officer: Applies Ground Combat Logistics bonus. Commander must be 1 rank higher than lowest ground unit commander rank.

Communications Officer: Applies Ground Combat Maneuver bonus. Commander must be 1 rank higher than lowest ground unit commander rank.

Science Officer: Applies Survey and Xenoarchaeology bonus. Commander must be 1 rank higher than lowest ground unit commander rank.

In order to keep junior officers from being assigned to the general staff of big units such as Army HQs, the range of possible candidates for a staff officer position will be limited to leaders 3 ranks below the CO. So a Colonel commanding a Regiment can have a Communications Officer who is a Captain, but a General commanding and Army can only choose from Brigadier Generals and up to staff a similar role.

This is necessary since there isn't any hard limit on the level of officer than can command a single formation, unlike ships which can only be led by O-4s and below unless you manually assign higher-ranked officers.
 

I would probably keep it simpler, and just have the required rank be directly below the formation's listed (not necessarily actual) commander rank, since unlike warships we do have subordinate formations in a hierarchy as part of the mechanics (where subfleets don't really have "superior" formations so are not that similar). Note that while there is no hard limit, it is of the same nature as warships as far as auto-assign goes i.e. a commander will not be assigned to a formation with a minimum rank lower than their own unless you do it manually yourself.

This would work out naturally as you have e.g. Lt. Colonels commanding a battalion assisted by Majors, Brigadiers commanding a brigade assisted by Colonels, and Lt. Generals commanding a corps assisted by Maj. Generals. Then set the rank ratio to 2:1 just as for naval officers and maybe bump up the generation rate a bit (currently is 5 officers per academy per year, bumping up to 6 with most of the new generation being ground forces) and we're in great shape.

Well, from my research I've found that a variety of different ranks have roles in HQs. While your model works for the lowest-ranked formations, a General isn't going to be staffed by a bunch of Lt. Generals outside of maybe his XO as that would be a waste of a senior officer. Even Battalions will have Captains typically serve in an HQ.

Only the XO should have to be directly below the CO; the other billets should have a larger range of officers to choose from.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 03:58:36 PM by Borealis4x »
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Planetary Defense Force Regiment
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2021, 04:20:18 PM »
I don't think Steve is done with the ground combat mechanic and what we have is what he had time to create and made functional and good enough system until he feel the urge to improve on it.

I also feel I continuously lack commanders for my military formation despite mostly using battalion level formations at roughly 5k size as my smallest main combat units outside my Naval forces.

I always have to build huge numbers of academies to support my fleets and armies and I have troves of scientists that I don't know what to do with... I put academy leaders in every place I have academies and they are either lead by a naval or a ground officer.

I would also advice to start at battalion level... company level is too fiddly to deal with and the game really don't support it that well. For fleets it make more sense to model down to Lieutenants, I do that too, the ships don't have that much crew to command in comparison with ground forces.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Planetary Defense Force Regiment
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2021, 04:23:14 PM »
Well, from my research I've found that a variety of different ranks have roles in HQs. While your model works for the lowest-ranked formations, a General isn't going to be staffed by a bunch of Lt. Generals outside of maybe his XO as that would be a waste of a senior officer. Even Battalions will have Captains typically serve in an HQ.

Only the XO should have to be directly below the CO; the other billets should have a larger range of officers to choose from.

While you're right, there comes a point where we do have to simplify the modeling for the sake of good gameplay and having a system that plays well with other mechanics, particularly the auto-assignment which is essential to having a manageable game once officer numbers start creeping up over time. Currently the auto-assignment only operates on the minimum/assigned rank of any position including command, for both navy and ground commanders, and Steve so far has not shown any apparent interest in changing this although it has been suggested.

The basis for the rank arrangement I suggested is that the battalion-brigade-corps structure seems to be generally one that works best within Aurora for various reasons, although many players do indeed RP a more detailed structure, and in this case the assignments traditionally associated with the ranks I listed as staff officers are omitted anyways (MAJ = company, COL = regiment, MJG = division). This plus the traditional triangular formation structure would fit with a 2:1 rank ratio very neatly even if not perfectly accurate. Personally I already find it a minor nightmare trying to devise any realistic force structure that isn't three line sub-formations and all the support in the HQ which will actually use my ground officers, and I do worry that having a staff officer system with some positions being rank-1, some rank-2, etc. will only give me more nightmares...

Not to mention, incidentally, that this discussion is a tad academic as supposedly the bonuses are not actually passed down from superior HQs as intended anyways, though I haven't tested this myself so I'm not 100% convinced.

I don't think Steve is done with the ground combat mechanic and what we have is what he had time to create and made functional and good enough system until he feel the urge to improve on it.

I also feel I continuously lack commanders for my military formation despite mostly using battalion level formations at roughly 5k size as my smallest main combat units outside my Naval forces.

I always have to build huge numbers of academies to support my fleets and armies and I have troves of scientists that I don't know what to do with... I put academy leaders in every place I have academies and they are either lead by a naval or a ground officer.

I would also advice to start at battalion level... company level is too fiddly to deal with and the game really don't support it that well. For fleets it make more sense to model down to Lieutenants, I do that too, the ships don't have that much crew to command in comparison with ground forces.

Lack of commanders I think is why many players use 10k or even 20k as their base formation size...however this runs into the issue of many commanders lacking the ability to effectively command those formations (although I think this is bugged and command size doesn't actually have an effect?). I would frankly remove ground force command from the game as far as commander skill goes - rank and HQ capacity should be enough, and it is the only "skill" in the game that limits rather than improves a commander.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Planetary Defense Force Regiment
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2021, 04:32:40 PM »
Well, from my research I've found that a variety of different ranks have roles in HQs. While your model works for the lowest-ranked formations, a General isn't going to be staffed by a bunch of Lt. Generals outside of maybe his XO as that would be a waste of a senior officer. Even Battalions will have Captains typically serve in an HQ.

Only the XO should have to be directly below the CO; the other billets should have a larger range of officers to choose from.

While you're right, there comes a point where we do have to simplify the modeling for the sake of good gameplay and having a system that plays well with other mechanics, particularly the auto-assignment which is essential to having a manageable game once officer numbers start creeping up over time. Currently the auto-assignment only operates on the minimum/assigned rank of any position including command, for both navy and ground commanders, and Steve so far has not shown any apparent interest in changing this although it has been suggested.

The basis for the rank arrangement I suggested is that the battalion-brigade-corps structure seems to be generally one that works best within Aurora for various reasons, although many players do indeed RP a more detailed structure, and in this case the assignments traditionally associated with the ranks I listed as staff officers are omitted anyways (MAJ = company, COL = regiment, MJG = division). This plus the traditional triangular formation structure would fit with a 2:1 rank ratio very neatly even if not perfectly accurate. Personally I already find it a minor nightmare trying to devise any realistic force structure that isn't three line sub-formations and all the support in the HQ which will actually use my ground officers, and I do worry that having a staff officer system with some positions being rank-1, some rank-2, etc. will only give me more nightmares...

Not to mention, incidentally, that this discussion is a tad academic as supposedly the bonuses are not actually passed down from superior HQs as intended anyways, though I haven't tested this myself so I'm not 100% convinced.

I don't think Steve is done with the ground combat mechanic and what we have is what he had time to create and made functional and good enough system until he feel the urge to improve on it.

I also feel I continuously lack commanders for my military formation despite mostly using battalion level formations at roughly 5k size as my smallest main combat units outside my Naval forces.

I always have to build huge numbers of academies to support my fleets and armies and I have troves of scientists that I don't know what to do with... I put academy leaders in every place I have academies and they are either lead by a naval or a ground officer.

I would also advice to start at battalion level... company level is too fiddly to deal with and the game really don't support it that well. For fleets it make more sense to model down to Lieutenants, I do that too, the ships don't have that much crew to command in comparison with ground forces.

Lack of commanders I think is why many players use 10k or even 20k as their base formation size...however this runs into the issue of many commanders lacking the ability to effectively command those formations (although I think this is bugged and command size doesn't actually have an effect?). I would frankly remove ground force command from the game as far as commander skill goes - rank and HQ capacity should be enough, and it is the only "skill" in the game that limits rather than improves a commander.

Indeed the bonuses was not working at least a few versions ago... but I don't know if Steve corrected it or not. I just build the structure anyway for role-play purposes so in the mean time that will do if it is not fixed.

I'm not too fond of the force limitation for commanders either, it just are fiddly to play with.

As I said, I think that Steve have planned to go back to looking at the ground combat mechanic at some not too far distant future so I hope it brings some improvements to some of these issues. I think there are other issues with ground combat that is more important but I agree that it is not optimal as is.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Planetary Defense Force Regiment
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2021, 04:33:26 PM »
Lack of commanders I think is why many players use 10k or even 20k as their base formation size...however this runs into the issue of many commanders lacking the ability to effectively command those formations (although I think this is bugged and command size doesn't actually have an effect?). I would frankly remove ground force command from the game as far as commander skill goes - rank and HQ capacity should be enough, and it is the only "skill" in the game that limits rather than improves a commander.

Yes, absolutely yes. The command skill not only exists only to gimp otherwise excellent commanders but it also limits the flexibility of the player when it comes to choosing their formation size. There isn't much point in creating formations that are much bigger than the practical maximum that the game will randomly give your officers.
 

Offline serger

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Re: Planetary Defense Force Regiment
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2021, 03:09:32 AM »
Indeed the bonuses was not working at least a few versions ago... but I don't know if Steve corrected it or not.
At 1.12 it's still bugged.