Author Topic: Raiders and non TN starts  (Read 848 times)

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Offline Paul M (OP)

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Raiders and non TN starts
« on: November 03, 2022, 02:27:56 PM »
I've tried now several times non-TN starts with raiders enabled...this seems to be a non-viable combination.  Basically in most of the original attempts my homeworld was wiped out before I got to TN tech.  In the game previous to the current one there was a few week war before my ground forces were obliterated but at least I had gotten to TN and my StO's got some raider ships.  For the current game I set the Raiders on spawning only after 20 explored systems.  These have all been non-Sol starts as well.  In this attempt I got to TN and developed technology to have a better ground force...I now have 2 armoured and 1 infantry divisions plus I'm on my second generation of StO emplacements.  I have established a colony in my home system plus 2 small ones in the adjacent systems.  I have 6 Frigates, 6 Orbital bases and 18 fighters plus some support ships.  I'm increasing my yards so I can build 9000 Tonne DDs.  Then suddenly a raider ship showed up over my outsystem colony...a few days later 40 more similar sized ships (903 tonne) and 20 51K tonne ships show up.  325K in ground troops is landed on a colony of 30K population with 1.2K of police force...obliteration follows.  Then a single ship shows up in my home system...ok...realistically this is game over.  I'm still researching nuclear pulse drives so I'm facing a steep speed difference.  Them showing up in the system they did cuts me off from most exploration as the other jump point led to not much (bad exploration luck over all). 

So far as I can see any play with non-TN start or reduced starting numbers or slow research...things that for me make an interesting game are killed by the raiders if they are active.  Plus they ignored the trigger rule I set (likely an NPC had explored more) and their behaviour (extermination as opposed to raiding) makes things just unfun.  In my view they would be more viable if they were spawned with a force based not game turn but on what the player has.  Otherwise my advice to anyone is to just turn them off when you play in the above ways.
 

Offline Pedroig

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Re: Raiders and non TN starts
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2022, 04:31:58 PM »
Set NPC races to 0 until you hit TN, this is being addressed in the 2.2 notes, but currently the count is discovered systems, not player discovered systems, so having NPC races exploring is doing you in.
si vis pacem, para bellum
 
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Offline Paul M (OP)

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Re: Raiders and non TN starts
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2022, 10:53:08 AM »
I think there is a bit more to the issue then just that the NPCs also explore.  To be clear, I think the idea of the raiders is good.  I just think the execution is sub-optimal.  A non-TN start with reduced population and limited infrastructure (research facilities, etc) means you take the better part of 75-100 years to achieve what a TN start gives you.   How fast depends on your starting scientists but it is still not a short time.  If you turn up the cost of research, you get much the same result.  To have 60 ships show up, that is not something I think anyone in this situation can deal with.  They have a 4K speed, my fighters don't even do 2K...I did manage to sneak a squadron in; but they didn't hit anything before destruction.   My frigates do 800 kps, admittedly they are using 75% max engines as I didn't want to develop two engines and my survey ships need efficiency.  But the kicker is the 325K in ground troops, assuming that is an accurate value, and if I go with the 51K ships being transports it is not impossible they had each 16K or so...that is 10x my homeworlds ground forces and 100x my colony. 

I don't really see any solution beyond turning them off at game start.  Basically, that single ship can destroy my entire navy, and all my StO's...it will take damage, but it outranges most of my weapons...only the AI's lack of tactical ability could save me...or its weapon breaking down given the new mechanics.

Added in edit:  the change in 2.2 will reduce the chance you get the situation I am in (60 ships showing up) but the real problem is that 1 ship is sufficient to destroy my navy, if handled well.  The AI won't likely do that given it is currently futzing around but even that kills the game due to being stuck at 5 min turns.  For me anyway it is a case of: "it looks good in theory, but works like spit in practice."
« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 11:27:45 AM by Paul M »
 

Offline Xkill

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Re: Raiders and non TN starts
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2022, 06:33:25 PM »
I think it's a given that at such tech levels you are simply going to get destroyed. If an unfriendly NPR (or god forbid, Invaders) stumbled upon your home system it would end much the same way. This is just a product of the effects of technological mismatch in Aurora. Since the raiders have such a massive advantage, they can claim hegemony at will. Their raid sizes probably shouldn't be based on simple game time, though. Feels artificial. Maybe previous raid success or PPV or some other thing like that would be a better metric for this?

The raider proclivity towards wanton destruction is indeed strange, however. If there were more ways to interact with them in a form that fit their nature they might feel more adequate. If the current "conqueror behaviour" must be maintained, then additional mechanics that support this would be good. Perhaps after establishing dominion over local space they could subjugate races/populations and impose tribute payments in wealth, minerals or population. They might force limits on technological development or military expansion and other such measures, all upon threat of massive raid/invasion. That might make them feel more like raiders and bullies instead of opportunistic exterminators.
 

Offline Ultimoos

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Re: Raiders and non TN starts
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2022, 05:58:20 PM »
I think you are giving yourself just way too much handicap. Reduced research speed, conventional start, random system. It's manageable ONLY when you start with 0 NPR's.
I have similar game to yours right now. 25% research, conventional start. I set raiders to 2 systems discovered. But. 0 NPR's, so I can prepare for what's to come. Raider ships are not big problem. They are weak. 100 point's of missile damage clears them with ease. But, you need tech. At least lvl3 on everything. Lvl3 missile tech just barely works.

You really cant compete with ships that have ion engines, lvl 4 railguns and run at 4000Km/s, with starting tech.

My game is 45 years in, and only now I feel semi prepared to leave my system and face raiders.