v2.2.0 Changes Discussion Thread

[Ulzgoroth]

Looking at decoy and AMM logic now, it seems like there's a (potentially micro-heavy) niche for 'duster' AMMs that throw the maximum possible number of warheads regardless of how weak they are. Fired as a first AMM wave against incoming missiles, these wouldn't have much chance of killing incoming ASMs, but would be very efficient at removing all their decoys since decoy removal doesn't depend on a damage check. Thus stripped the shipkillers should be comparatively easy for more-typical AMMs or point defense beam weapons to stop.

[Snoman314]

Good thing there's a minimum overhead of MSP size cost for each additional warhead then, I guess.

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

Looking at decoy and AMM logic now, it seems like there's a (potentially micro-heavy) niche for 'duster' AMMs that throw the maximum possible number of warheads regardless of how weak they are. Fired as a first AMM wave against incoming missiles, these wouldn't have much chance of killing incoming ASMs, but would be very efficient at removing all their decoys since decoy removal doesn't depend on a damage check. Thus stripped the shipkillers should be comparatively easy for more-typical AMMs or point defense beam weapons to stop.

Each extra warhead costs 0.1 MSP of non-warhead space, which limits the practical number of warheads.

[Ulzgoroth]

Looking at decoy and AMM logic now, it seems like there's a (potentially micro-heavy) niche for 'duster' AMMs that throw the maximum possible number of warheads regardless of how weak they are. Fired as a first AMM wave against incoming missiles, these wouldn't have much chance of killing incoming ASMs, but would be very efficient at removing all their decoys since decoy removal doesn't depend on a damage check. Thus stripped the shipkillers should be comparatively easy for more-typical AMMs or point defense beam weapons to stop.

Each extra warhead costs 0.1 MSP of non-warhead space, which limits the practical number of warheads.

Good thing there's a minimum overhead of MSP size cost for each additional warhead then, I guess.

I'm aware, but I'm expecting the difference in warhead count between 'maximize chances of killing a shipkiller' and 'maximize expected number of decoys stripped' will be significant.

Though it would get smaller as warhead tech improves.

[nuclearslurpee]

I'm aware, but I'm expecting the difference in warhead count between 'maximize chances of killing a shipkiller' and 'maximize expected number of decoys stripped' will be significant.

The flip side is that opponents can simply use missiles without decoys in which case your 'stripper' missiles will be nothing more than less-effective AMMs. Should make for some interesting tactical brinksmanship in missile designs. 

Though it would get smaller as warhead tech improves.

The MSP per additional warhead is a fixed 0.1, so the improvement is very small especially with fractional warheads.

[Nori]

I checked the forum just for funsies and I did not expect a Thanksgiving/Christmas present. Awesome! Thanks for the hard work on this.

[Kurt]

I checked the forum just for funsies and I did not expect a Thanksgiving/Christmas present. Awesome! Thanks for the hard work on this.

I second this!  I have slowly been putting together a new campaign, but I've been distracted by various other things, like Starfield and the new Baldur's Gate.  I was getting rather irritated with my procrastination on this, but now my slowness has been justified.  I can now start over in the new version with a setup that works better for how I want to start my campaign. 

Thanks Steve!

[Ulzgoroth]

I'm aware, but I'm expecting the difference in warhead count between 'maximize chances of killing a shipkiller' and 'maximize expected number of decoys stripped' will be significant.

The flip side is that opponents can simply use missiles without decoys in which case your 'stripper' missiles will be nothing more than less-effective AMMs. Should make for some interesting tactical brinksmanship in missile designs. 

My impression is that offensive missiles without decoys aren't expected to be credible...

But yes, by design the stripper missiles are expected to be ineffective against literally anything except decoys. Removing decoys is the only possible reason for them.

Though it would get smaller as warhead tech improves.

The MSP per additional warhead is a fixed 0.1, so the improvement is very small especially with fractional warheads.

For best results in killing missiles, you want a warhead strength of target size (MSP)/20 (max 1). That can vary quite a lot, but could easily be 0.1 MSP of warhead per, more if your enemy is using big torpedoes and your warhead tech is on the lower end but no higher than 0.5 MSP. For killing decoys, you want a warhead strength of as close to zero as you can get without not being counted as a hit. So including the multi-warhead cost, the missile-killing warheads might be anything from maybe 10% heavier (high warhead tech vs. small missiles) to more than twice as heavy each.

Might be a narrow window where the multiplier is big enough to warrant consideration is very narrow though.

[nuclearslurpee]

My impression is that offensive missiles without decoys aren't expected to be credible...

This isn't my impression at all. Yes, decoys should be a fairly strong option, particularly for larger missiles, but Aurora is based on the concept of creating interesting decisions for the player rather than forcing the player to do one specific thing, so missiles without decoys should be credible because they can use that MSP to do other things.

Of course, even if this is the intent it's certainly possible that decoys end up being overwhelmingly the best option in practice, and we as players will find that out in playtesting. If so, Steve can certainly make adjustments as needed.

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

The intent wasn't to make larger missiles necessarily the best option - just to make them a credible option and add a lot more variety to missile design. Small missile spam is still viable (having been on the receiving end during testing). NPRs will use a greater variety of missile sizes and types than before, so you need to take account of that when designing defences.