v2.2.0 Changes Discussion Thread

[LiquidGold2]

I think this in turn will increase the importance of intelligence, scouting, and building a diverse fleet so you can adjust fleet composition to meet new enemies, which is a very good thing.

This is slightly out of scope for this thread, but afaik the only way to gather intelligence on how a ship is armed is, well, to have them shoot at you. And even then sometimes the intelligence window is finicky about when it registers missile launches. If intelligence gathering is going to become a more important aspect of combat, it would be nice to have more tools and methods for gathering that intelligence.

[nuclearslurpee]

This is slightly out of scope for this thread, but afaik the only way to gather intelligence on how a ship is armed is, well, to have them shoot at you. And even then sometimes the intelligence window is finicky about when it registers missile launches. If intelligence gathering is going to become a more important aspect of combat, it would be nice to have more tools and methods for gathering that intelligence.

Actually, it is possible to collect ship class blueprints from intelligence gathering. I know I've gotten a few from crew interrogations, but if I'm reading the StevePost™ on ELINT correctly, ELINT will also grant this information as well.

On that note: @Steve would it be possible to tweak the intel formula a bit to have higher chances for "information" like ship classes, sensor specs, etc. and a lower chance of gaining free technology? Right now I think many players avoid ELINT because of how easy it is to get technology (i.e., it feels more like an exploit than a good game mechanic) and I think it would be a bit more flavorful to gather classified ship class specifications more often than techs. This wold be hopefully just a small tweak in the ELINT code?

[LiquidGold2]

Actually, it is possible to collect ship class blueprints from intelligence gathering. I know I've gotten a few from crew interrogations, but if I'm reading the StevePost™ on ELINT correctly, ELINT will also grant this information as well.
[...]
Right now I think many players avoid ELINT because of how easy it is to get technology

It is nice that there are alternative options to get ship info, though to do crew interrogations you'd have to have fought and killed enemy ships. While better than only knowing when the weapons fire, it does still mean that you have to ultimately engage in combat to get the info either way.
Where are you seeing that ELINT will give that sort of info? That post only talks about populations and active sensor info. I don't bother with ELINT because it's is such a niche use case that it's not usually worth the effort.

[nuclearslurpee]

Where are you seeing that ELINT will give that sort of info? That post only talks about populations and active sensor info. I don't bother with ELINT because it's is such a niche use case that it's not usually worth the effort.

In the linked post:

Any intelligence gained on a population is also used at the racial level for the purposes of espionage. [...] This is the same check as in VB6 for espionage teams and can result in new technology, survey data, new system knowledge or details of an enemy ship class.

Bolding is mine, for emphasis.

[Bremen]

A major use of Decoy's would be to counter the one large Box launcher salvo. If you are taking multiple salvo's with small numbers of leakers then a decoy is probably inefficient, if you are taking one salco which intended to kill or cripple your ships then being able to decoy half the leakers will probably turn kills into armour and shield damage, so requiring a much larger salvo to achieve the goal

To expand on this: if you have, say, nine decoys on a ship, and you face a box launcher attack, you can launch all nine decoys and avoid 90% of the missiles, basically making the box launcher attack toothless. In contrast, if the enemy is using reloadable launchers with several salvos, you would only launch one or two decoys per salvo and avoid half or 2/3 of the incoming missiles. Of course, reloadable launcher waves are smaller and thus vulnerable to regular point defense envelopes, but presumably there is a tonnage tradeoff between using decoys versus conventional PD methods, and each is better against a different kind of enemy.

I think this in turn will increase the importance of intelligence, scouting, and building a diverse fleet so you can adjust fleet composition to meet new enemies, which is a very good thing.

It's worth noting that, pending future balance changes, decoys are heavy. 2.5% of a ship's tonnage to have a single decoy with equal signature, which in turn means 9 decoys would be over 20% of a ship's tonnage and probably absolutely gut all other payload space.

I suspect with the current numbers decoys are going to be basically "have one or two if you're expecting box launcher swarms." But they'll be very effective in that scenario, since even doubling the number of box launcher missiles to kill a ship is going to make a massive difference.

It's also potentially useful in very large fleet engagements, since twenty ships firing missiles at one ship can work similarly to a mass box launcher attack. Though in that case it can potentially be handled by splitting fire so it's twenty ships each firing at different enemy ships, though that has its own inefficiencies.

[kilo]

Is anything known about the order of actions when it comes to using decoys and defensive fire? It would be great to know how the new electronic warfare is integrated into missile defense. Do the point defense guns fire first and electronic warfare happens afterwards or is it vice versa? Can ship B launch decoys while ship A is targeted?

[Destragon]

Is anything known about the order of actions when it comes to using decoys and defensive fire? It would be great to know how the new electronic warfare is integrated into missile defense. Do the point defense guns fire first and electronic warfare happens afterwards or is it vice versa? Can ship B launch decoys while ship A is targeted?

The post says decoys are launched "after point defence fire but before CIWS fire".
Also, "If the total MSP of inbound missiles targeted on the ship is equal to or greater than the Decoy Threshold, at least one Decoy Missile will be launched." so only the ship targeted by missiles will launch decoys.

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

I suspect with the current numbers decoys are going to be basically "have one or two if you're expecting box launcher swarms." But they'll be very effective in that scenario, since even doubling the number of box launcher missiles to kill a ship is going to make a massive difference.

Yes, that is their intended role.

[Marski]

I suspect with the current numbers decoys are going to be basically "have one or two if you're expecting box launcher swarms." But they'll be very effective in that scenario, since even doubling the number of box launcher missiles to kill a ship is going to make a massive difference.

Yes, that is their intended role.

release when?

[nuclearslurpee]

release when?

Soon™.

[Aloriel]

release when?

Every time you ask, he adds a month

[Erik L]

I suspect with the current numbers decoys are going to be basically "have one or two if you're expecting box launcher swarms." But they'll be very effective in that scenario, since even doubling the number of box launcher missiles to kill a ship is going to make a massive difference.

Yes, that is their intended role.

release when?

Q2

[StarshipCactus]

release when?

Just as soon as our omniscient overlord Steve finishes adding in some bugs so us ordinary programmers don't feel bad.

[lumporr]

One of my most anticipated fixes! Martian androids, here we come!

I've always theory-crafted a game in which I play several player-race companies of millions with a huge neutral population of billions, with each company specializing in different technologies. Now, the bio-company will be far more important - having a team dedicated solely to the best possible androids for colonization, and then selling the proprietary rights to the new genetic material (in the form of colonists), could be very lucrative. Lower oxygen rates, lower temperatures, and lower gravity would make most colonization efforts far quicker and less terraformer-intensive.

[nuclearslurpee]

Finally the legions of Bio/Gen scientists I always start a game with instead of useful CP/PP scientists will be useful for something!