Author Topic: Raiders in the long term  (Read 3421 times)

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Offline Zeebie (OP)

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Raiders in the long term
« on: August 18, 2022, 09:20:50 AM »
Hi folks- I really like the addition of raiders, I love having an in-game incentive to develop a military and patrol routes early on.  But I'm wondering if their activity and numbers stay the same forever - I know we can't attack their home system, but can we deplete their forces so their incursions are smaller or rarer? Do they have an infinite number of ships? Some of their fleets are pretty substantial and appear rather frequently.  I can imagine that getting tedious after a while.
 

Offline TallTroll

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Re: Raiders in the long term
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2022, 09:32:26 AM »
Steves' initial post on them gives the details, but the tl;dr is that they do build and research over time, but their building capacity is limited, so killing them off is worthwhile, yes. Technically, you CAN attack their home system, sorta. If you board a vessel of theirs that then retreats and is captured in that system, you are free to do whatever you like there. Good luck...
 

Offline Vandermeer

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Re: Raiders in the long term
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2022, 10:13:13 AM »
Technically, you CAN attack their home system, sorta. If you board a vessel of theirs that then retreats and is captured in that system, you are free to do whatever you like there. Good luck...
Steve also stated that their system doesn't really serve a practical purpose in terms of production or having a functional colony at all if I remember correctly. Even if you somehow managed to glass their planet, the ships are spawned in via script, so what Zeebie fears might be correct: There is likely an infinite and regular number of them. (and killing will only stall them)

The fact that this is the first non-npr threat that can research doesn't lie well with me either through this. They are the only ones you can never shut down, and they will always improve? It really does sound quite bothersome, which is a shame, because otherwise I like their idea.

Now, if there were more instances of this race that could spawn, kind of how remnants could be considered their own local faction in each system they are in, that I would welcome. A new raider clan once in a while to keep the game interesting, that sounds nice to me.
The same invincible and improving threat all the time however seems to take away control from the player, which is not good for sandbox. I will test how I can edit them in database to see if they can be 'defeated' there after some time. If that doesn't work, I would probably deactivate them pending further player reports.
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Offline Droll

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Re: Raiders in the long term
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2022, 11:41:04 AM »
Technically, you CAN attack their home system, sorta. If you board a vessel of theirs that then retreats and is captured in that system, you are free to do whatever you like there. Good luck...
Steve also stated that their system doesn't really serve a practical purpose in terms of production or having a functional colony at all if I remember correctly. Even if you somehow managed to glass their planet, the ships are spawned in via script, so what Zeebie fears might be correct: There is likely an infinite and regular number of them. (and killing will only stall them)

The fact that this is the first non-npr threat that can research doesn't lie well with me either through this. They are the only ones you can never shut down, and they will always improve? It really does sound quite bothersome, which is a shame, because otherwise I like their idea.

Now, if there were more instances of this race that could spawn, kind of how remnants could be considered their own local faction in each system they are in, that I would welcome. A new raider clan once in a while to keep the game interesting, that sounds nice to me.
The same invincible and improving threat all the time however seems to take away control from the player, which is not good for sandbox. I will test how I can edit them in database to see if they can be 'defeated' there after some time. If that doesn't work, I would probably deactivate them pending further player reports.

Spoiler for Rahkas rant:

The problem I have with stuff like Rakhas for example spawning an instance for every planet is that after a while you can get clutter in the intel screen of all these dead races. It also is a bit redundant and unnecessary for the Rakhas to have an instance per planet as due to their nature they will never interact with other Rakhas and have very simple and uniform foreign policy regarding NPRs and player races.

But I digress

Spoiler for my Raider rework:

I actually really support the idea of there being a % chance for a system that you first explore to be declared a raider system where they have a colony and basic infrastructure. You could then add a special raider-only component to their ships that allows them to partially circumvent the JP network by allowing them spool up this component and enter anywhere on the outskirts of any system connected to their current system through JPs. This component would probably have a decently sizeable cooldown so it can't be spammed and not be mutually exclusive with the existing jump drives, allowing the raiders to also use JPs like everyone else, maybe as a desperate escape attempt.

This means that you can predict where the pirates will appear/travel through based on where their system(s) are but not completely be able to stop them through JP blockades. Giving the player the choice either escort everything, or build surveillance on problem frontier systems to spot entering pirates and remove them before they move deeper into your territory, allowing you to maybe not escort absolutely all civilian traffic in the core of your empire.

Under this rework, you would be able to have multiple Raider systems each emanating an aura of piracy around them from different directions, with the colony in the raider system (would be cool if they were the new DSPs so that even otherwise empty systems are candidates) producing a set amount of resources (+ whatever is looted) and with certain shipyard capacity producing new problems until dealt with. It might be a good idea to give the raiders strong static defenses for their colonies/defensive fleets so that the player needs to assemble some force to remove them, possibly different colony sizes for the raiders too for varying severity.


I might repost this to the suggestions thread if it finds popularity here but I really do think these new Raiders would fit the "no exceptions" philosophy of C# much better than "there is a magic system you can never legitimately access".
 
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Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: Raiders in the long term
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2022, 03:21:14 PM »
The fact that this is the first non-npr threat that can research doesn't lie well with me either through this. They are the only ones you can never shut down, and they will always improve? It really does sound quite bothersome, which is a shame, because otherwise I like their idea.

I like to imagine Raiders like communities from my and other empires that have turned into piracy. I used to create a race via SM at some points in my personal campaigns to simulate that.
Eventually, it makes sense that as you advance and other races advance, new people joins the piracy cause bringing in ships technologically more advanced pushing forward their scientific effort and knowledge.
In my case then, they work as intended, as there always new people joining the cause and the threat is always meaningful, not like other Spoilers that after a point, become only a nuisance.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2022, 03:22:58 PM by Froggiest1982 »
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: Raiders in the long term
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2022, 03:26:46 PM »
It would be nice to have privateers also. :D
 
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Offline Droll

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Re: Raiders in the long term
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2022, 03:32:52 PM »
The fact that this is the first non-npr threat that can research doesn't lie well with me either through this. They are the only ones you can never shut down, and they will always improve? It really does sound quite bothersome, which is a shame, because otherwise I like their idea.

I like to imagine Raiders like communities from my and other empires that have turned into piracy. I used to create a race via SM at some points in my personal campaigns to simulate that.
Eventually, it makes sense that as you advance and other races advance, new people joins the piracy cause bringing in ships technologically more advanced pushing forward their scientific effort and knowledge.
In my case then, they work as intended, as there always new people joining the cause and the threat is always meaningful, not like other Spoilers that after a point, become only a nuisance.

Aren't the Invaders also supposed to advance as time goes on? It never felt like they were advancing at an appreciable rate
 

Offline Vandermeer

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Re: Raiders in the long term
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2022, 02:02:55 AM »
The problem I have with stuff like Rakhas for example spawning an instance for every planet is that after a while you can get clutter in the intel screen of all these dead races. It also is a bit redundant and unnecessary for the Rakhas to have an instance per planet as due to their nature they will never interact with other Rakhas and have very simple and uniform foreign policy regarding NPRs and player races.
Not per planet obviously. More like, there might be small chance on any game time for Raiders to appear again, and then they will do so in a random colonized system of yours.(maybe with preference to younger foundings)
The clutter would only happen if this comes too often, but technically, since they should only be able to re-appear once the old one is defeated, you could just recycle the other race just like with remnants. Tech can then be adapted too.
Quote
Under this rework, you would be able to have multiple Raider systems each emanating an aura of piracy around them from different directions, with the colony in the raider system (would be cool if they were the new DSPs so that even otherwise empty systems are candidates) producing a set amount of resources (+ whatever is looted) and with certain shipyard capacity producing new problems until dealt with. It might be a good idea to give the raiders strong static defenses for their colonies/defensive fleets so that the player needs to assemble some force to remove them, possibly different colony sizes for the raiders too for varying severity.
[/spoiler]
I would absolutely love if they would just exist regularly in the world. Maybe, in order to make it more interesting, they could spawn in a system you haven't yet discovered (which might be generated upon each system you visit), so once you encounter some of their ships, you will have to go on a hunt for their hideout but without having directions.
Alternatively they could also spawn on one of those really distant planets in some systems. A real and difficult to reach pirate haven. Maybe their special traveling ability could then be to make lagrange point like inner system jumps, so only they can cross these distances effectively.
Quote
I might repost this to the suggestions thread if it finds popularity here but I really do think these new Raiders would fit the "no exceptions" philosophy of C# much better than "there is a magic system you can never legitimately access".
Absolutely agree. The magic exception race status doesn't sit well with me here. I mean, all spoilers kind of have to have some exceptional qualities to make them interesting, and they all do, but having one whose exceptionality is to be invulnerable, and to become more and more menacing as the game progresses... . It is like an exception even amongst the exceptional spoilers. They don't fit in line.

I like to imagine Raiders like communities from my and other empires that have turned into piracy. I used to create a race via SM at some points in my personal campaigns to simulate that.
Eventually, it makes sense that as you advance and other races advance, new people joins the piracy cause bringing in ships technologically more advanced pushing forward their scientific effort and knowledge.
I tried to think about it in this way too, but it doesn't really connect. If they are pirates of your own faction, they couldn't be more advanced, nor have access to mystery jump ability. And if they were pirates of some other race, you should be able to find that race and destroy them to make the tech progression and perhaps supply stop.
I can't see how there would be a hidden race around that goes to photonic drives and beyond, but is never found out about. Maybe you can argue this by saying the Raiders can jump really really far, so these guys might be from another quadrant or galaxy, but it all seems rather like hand winging for suspension of disbelief to me.

Now, if they just were said pirates/privateers stemming from player technology who would spawn sometimes, I guess I would like that solution too. It makes sense to have this.

Aren't the Invaders also supposed to advance as time goes on? It never felt like they were advancing at an appreciable rate
Oh, I forget they can do it too, because it is so slow. In my most recent game I have battled them for what, 50 years or more? They never seemed to improve in the slightest though, so I am fine with the current setup in this case. Especially since they can actually be defeated for good, so this has no runaway effect.
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Offline Harold65

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Re: Raiders in the long term
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2022, 06:04:36 PM »
Having played a couple of games with raiders, I'm not terribly fond of them.  While the idea of a low-level threat early game makes some sense, it's just become a game of whack-a-mole.  Every system you have a ship, you'll need military support. I have some systems that only have a DST, and I get raiders there. I wonder if it would make sense for them to only raid inhabited systems?
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Raiders in the long term
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2022, 06:06:24 PM »
Having played a couple of games with raiders, I'm not terribly fond of them.  While the idea of a low-level threat early game makes some sense, it's just become a game of whack-a-mole.  Every system you have a ship, you'll need military support. I have some systems that only have a DST, and I get raiders there. I wonder if it would make sense for them to only raid inhabited systems?

They are trying to raid inhabited systems, but they have to find them first.
 

Offline captainwolfer

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Re: Raiders in the long term
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2022, 06:10:14 PM »
Having played a couple of games with raiders, I'm not terribly fond of them.  While the idea of a low-level threat early game makes some sense, it's just become a game of whack-a-mole.  Every system you have a ship, you'll need military support. I have some systems that only have a DST, and I get raiders there. I wonder if it would make sense for them to only raid inhabited systems?

They are trying to raid inhabited systems, but they have to find them first.
Do they count colonies with no population as inhabited, IE DST or auto mine colonies?
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Raiders in the long term
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2022, 06:17:24 PM »
Having played a couple of games with raiders, I'm not terribly fond of them.  While the idea of a low-level threat early game makes some sense, it's just become a game of whack-a-mole.  Every system you have a ship, you'll need military support. I have some systems that only have a DST, and I get raiders there. I wonder if it would make sense for them to only raid inhabited systems?

They are trying to raid inhabited systems, but they have to find them first.
Do they count colonies with no population as inhabited, IE DST or auto mine colonies?

No, they are interested in people primarily.
 

Offline Harold65

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Re: Raiders in the long term
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2022, 08:00:58 PM »
Having played a couple of games with raiders, I'm not terribly fond of them.  While the idea of a low-level threat early game makes some sense, it's just become a game of whack-a-mole.  Every system you have a ship, you'll need military support. I have some systems that only have a DST, and I get raiders there. I wonder if it would make sense for them to only raid inhabited systems?

They are trying to raid inhabited systems, but they have to find them first.

So if I clear them out of an unpopulated system, they won't spawn there again?  If so, what would happen if I then populated the system?
 

Offline Arwyn

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Re: Raiders in the long term
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2022, 03:39:35 PM »
I have found raiders an early prod to get military up and running. Afterwards, they are more of an annoyance, assuming you swat them when they show up.

The biggest issue I have with them is them going after my civilian shipping lines.

They have made me invest in more PDCs and missile bases for my bigger inhabited systems early on. That in turn does slow my colonization down, since I need a forward patrol base and supplies to support my rat catchers... err anti-raider craft.

I have noticed that once you find and kill their tankers, the incidence of them in any particular system falls off a cliff.

Fast missiles and/or particle beams are my anti-raider weapons of choice. I have found them to be the most efficient so far to date, as the PB's work great on the beam armed raiders. Early on, that also helps negate their speed advantage. Once my missile tech is fast enough to get a good closing speed, I use them to knock down raider scouts.
 

Offline Carthar

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Re: Raiders in the long term
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2022, 08:57:50 PM »
I like the raiders early in a game, but find that they become a micro management drain later on.   There isn't any reasonable counter play to having raiders spawn right in your civilian shipping lanes and decimate them before even the fastest attack craft can get in range.   I hate it but I normally am forced to turn them off mid game to keep the game fun.

I think that sunsetting or protection mechanics would make for a more enjoyable game with them and leave the mid and late game to more interesting NPR/spoiler threats. 

I'd love to see a mechanic something like:
    - A tech that can be researched which can stop the spawn
    - Research and build a device that stops spawns in a system
    - Having all the jump points stabilized would prevent spawning in that system
    - A certain amount of PPV in a system would lock that system down
    - Research a jump drive that can jump to their home base and destroying it would stop the spawns
    - Spawn of some sort of "boss" fleet after a set amount of time/exploration that when defeated would stop the spawns

Anyways, that is my 2 cents. .
 
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