Author Topic: Ground combat - morale, organization and training level  (Read 6080 times)

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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Ground combat - morale, organization and training level
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2023, 07:53:26 AM »
Also, let's not give up on the ground combat system just because NPR HW invasions are such multi-million-ton affairs that leave little room for details. We still go through ship boarding combat, capturing outposts, fighting small formations of spoilers, and all the numerous possibilities between multiple player races.

Let's also not discount multi-million-ton affairs either. May not be a lot of room for squad-level WH40K insert roleplay, but the strategic and logistical challenges to deploy such an invasion force is quite involved and is one of the biggest examples of long-term planning having a big payoff in Aurora, IMO. I think the system as it will be in 2.2 is close to what it needs to be to support both small and large-scale ground combat (although I may not personally like every implementation decision along the way), just a few more steps are needed for a fully streamlined experience.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Ground combat - morale, organization and training level
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2023, 10:07:51 AM »
I think the main thing regarding combat not working well that I have mentioned an inordinate amount of times by now is CAS and the overall AA implementation. I'm not sure if AA is overpowered but thanks to micromanagement issues (which I think will persist mostly in the current state of 2.2) means that CAS cannot be fielded in enough numbers compared to AA units - which of course results in annihilation for anything in the air.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Ground combat - morale, organization and training level
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2023, 08:34:19 PM »
I think the main thing regarding combat not working well that I have mentioned an inordinate amount of times by now is CAS and the overall AA implementation. I'm not sure if AA is overpowered but thanks to micromanagement issues (which I think will persist mostly in the current state of 2.2) means that CAS cannot be fielded in enough numbers compared to AA units - which of course results in annihilation for anything in the air.

Rest assured, AA is also tremendously overpowered.  :)

I am still in favor of folding CAS into a new ground unit class for aircraft, which would solve most issues and still leave the option of traditional naval bombardment mechanics for those who have a soft spot for space-to-air superiority fighters for some absurd reason.
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Ground combat - morale, organization and training level
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2023, 12:10:20 PM »
 --- Having dedicated Air Units in addition to GSFs would probably go a long way towards alleviating the current issues with AA. Allowing them to soak up AA fire by tasking them with AA Suppression missions. Allowing GSFs to benefit from a form of Fighter Pod ECM would also go a long way towards this, while perhaps even a Fighter Pod Shield Generator specifically tailored to the eight hour Ground Combat rounds could help alleviate it even further.

 --- These things would prove tremendously helpful in reducing the dominance of AA as well as a reduction in micro of GSFs since less could be used and to greater effect. New Fighter Pod types would help quite a bit.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Ground combat - morale, organization and training level
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2023, 05:26:07 PM »
The current ait combat system is way too micro and heavier AA is just too effective unless you armour the fighters allot...

I would appreciate a ground based air combat model... but we also need some module on ships so we can station air support from ships in space as well. We also could combine orbital bombardment to help targeting AA as well using air units as sort of FFD ground units are using them.

Currently I just ignore the air combat in the game as it is not a very fun mechanic to interract with at the moment.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Ground combat - morale, organization and training level
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2023, 05:31:26 PM »
Currently I just ignore the air combat in the game as it is not a very fun mechanic to interract with at the moment.

I don't even build AA for roleplay in most games anymore, because mechanically it is just awful. Fun fact: due to how AA fire is actually calculated, AA units below a certain racial weapons tech level will be completely useless against enemy fighters as their AA damage is rounded down to zero, notably the LAA component is useless until you reach racial weapons strength 10 or higher.

I'd rather have AA be used against a ground-based aircraft class with the same mechanics as everything else, and STOs be used for defense against spacecraft (space-based aircraft from carriers, as Jorgen suggests, would be fine to counter with regular AA). The whole space-to-ground mechanic is just a mess right now.
 

Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: Ground combat - morale, organization and training level
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2023, 10:18:27 PM »
Currently I just ignore the air combat in the game as it is not a very fun mechanic to interract with at the moment.

I don't even build AA for roleplay in most games anymore, because mechanically it is just awful. Fun fact: due to how AA fire is actually calculated, AA units below a certain racial weapons tech level will be completely useless against enemy fighters as their AA damage is rounded down to zero, notably the LAA component is useless until you reach racial weapons strength 10 or higher.

I'd rather have AA be used against a ground-based aircraft class with the same mechanics as everything else, and STOs be used for defense against spacecraft (space-based aircraft from carriers, as Jorgen suggests, would be fine to counter with regular AA). The whole space-to-ground mechanic is just a mess right now.

I am on same page. Still think there should be a "groud unit" called planes which interacts only with other planes, attacks same as the artillery, and can be attacked only by AA (or other planes as said).

If you want to make it a bit more interesting you could have planes bombers and planes fighters as well as customization.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 10:20:49 PM by Froggiest1982 »
 

Offline StarshipCactus

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Re: Ground combat - morale, organization and training level
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2023, 02:04:51 AM »
You could make the current space fighter things much more powerful in terms of damage. So you need lots of heavy AA to protect your units from them.
 

Offline dr125

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Re: Ground combat - morale, organization and training level
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2023, 06:32:13 AM »
The ground-unit-but-not approach would have the benefit of allowing the AI to field them as well. I know they use fighters, but do not use GSF. How do Precursor 'Hunter-Seeker Drones' sound?
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Ground combat - morale, organization and training level
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2023, 10:11:51 AM »
Since people seem to be gunning for air as a ground unit type I'm left wondering what would be their specialty vs the other vehicle types besides interaction with AA? Attacks rear-echelon and support formations unless providing support for a frontline unit? What about targeting rules when there is enemy air involved? What about unit capabilities for these air units? I don't think "jungle fighters" works in this context, as funny as the pun may be.

The current air combat system is way too micro and heavier AA is just too effective unless you armour the fighters allot...

Armor doesn't help because AA benefits massively from shock damage mechanics. Perhaps you could try something with endgame shields but then the crushing numbers of AA becomes a problem.

I would appreciate a ground based air combat model... but we also need some module on ships so we can station air support from ships in space as well. We also could combine orbital bombardment to help targeting AA as well using air units as sort of FFD ground units are using them.

Definitely, if we are going to go the pseudo-ground unit route I would not want to lose the ability to use carriers in orbit to support the ground. Though I think this might start running afoul of the C# aurora "no special rules" paradigm.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Ground combat - morale, organization and training level
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2023, 11:21:47 AM »
Since people seem to be gunning for air as a ground unit type I'm left wondering what would be their specialty vs the other vehicle types besides interaction with AA? Attacks rear-echelon and support formations unless providing support for a frontline unit? What about targeting rules when there is enemy air involved? What about unit capabilities for these air units? I don't think "jungle fighters" works in this context, as funny as the pun may be.

It's surely some programming work for Steve, but I think you mostly move the existing GSF rules and mechanics into an aircraft GU class as far as targeting rules, probably modifying a bit so that AA in a targeted formation does an appreciable amount of mitigation and counter-attack. I think an aircraft class should have a fairly large size (aircraft may only be ~10 tons, but we have to account for the amount of maintenance and support crew+equipment to be shipped around with them) and limited armor options, probably similar weapons choices to LVH as well. Targeting enemy air would probably work similar to how counter-battery fire currently does. As far as unit capabilities, same rules as apply to other non-INF types should work well enough.
 

Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: Ground combat - morale, organization and training level
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2023, 01:08:13 PM »
Since people seem to be gunning for air as a ground unit type I'm left wondering what would be their specialty vs the other vehicle types besides interaction with AA? Attacks rear-echelon and support formations unless providing support for a frontline unit? What about targeting rules when there is enemy air involved? What about unit capabilities for these air units? I don't think "jungle fighters" works in this context, as funny as the pun may be.

It's surely some programming work for Steve, but I think you mostly move the existing GSF rules and mechanics into an aircraft GU class as far as targeting rules, probably modifying a bit so that AA in a targeted formation does an appreciable amount of mitigation and counter-attack. I think an aircraft class should have a fairly large size (aircraft may only be ~10 tons, but we have to account for the amount of maintenance and support crew+equipment to be shipped around with them) and limited armor options, probably similar weapons choices to LVH as well. Targeting enemy air would probably work similar to how counter-battery fire currently does. As far as unit capabilities, same rules as apply to other non-INF types should work well enough.

IMHO, the biggest job will be on balancing rather than create ad-hoc rules, and, of course, some works is required.

As Nuclear said, all ingredients are there, including evasion which could be a factor against AA? Fighters could have more and Bombers less?

Regarding the "Jungle fighter" you could imagine being either the loadout or the structural plane changes required to be effective. For instance the "jungle fighter" uses napalm while the high or low gravity will suffer or gain evasion.

Eventually, air ground units won't get any fortification.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 01:10:54 PM by Froggiest1982 »
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Ground combat - morale, organization and training level
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2023, 02:48:38 PM »
Eventually, air ground units won't get any fortification.

This should probably depend on where they are based - assuming that is allowed, air GUs I imagine could typically base both on (presumably) airfields on the ground in a defensive context, and out of carriers in orbit in an offensive context.

The former would be more numerous but be vulnerable to artillery on the ground hitting their (presumed) airfields whereas the ones based on carriers in orbit are only hurt (outside of AA) if an STO or something else hits their mothership (I'm imagining the formation in this case being tied to the ship and not individual fighters). In the former case I can see fortification coming into play (this doesn't just have to be bunkers but could be stuff like C-RAMs being installed on the airfield).

You could also make airfields an installation to add air GU capacity to prevent massive CAS spam that makes aviation on offense worthless. Still cheaper and more efficient than a carrier in orbit but still requiring some sort of investment on the part of the defender.
 

Offline Garfunkel (OP)

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Re: Ground combat - morale, organization and training level
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2023, 07:03:54 PM »
What is this urge to take over an existing thread about X and make it about Y? This is the second of my ground combat threads where this exact thing has happened  :P

 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Ground combat - morale, organization and training level
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2023, 07:40:08 PM »
What is this urge to take over an existing thread about X and make it about Y? This is the second of my ground combat threads where this exact thing has happened  :P

I blame Droll:

I think the main thing regarding combat not working well that I have mentioned an inordinate amount of times by now is CAS and the overall AA implementation. I'm not sure if AA is overpowered but thanks to micromanagement issues (which I think will persist mostly in the current state of 2.2) means that CAS cannot be fielded in enough numbers compared to AA units - which of course results in annihilation for anything in the air.

 :P