Author Topic: 4.3 Suggestions  (Read 17953 times)

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Offline sloanjh (OP)

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4.3 Suggestions
« on: August 08, 2009, 06:35:56 PM »
This came up as a side topic in my discussion of my first seven years:

Run a campaign that has populations which tolerate ultra-low gravity, i.e. which have a lower G limit of 0.0.  At the same time, introduce "mining companies" into the civilian sector who will produce mines and create populations on worlds with high mineral concentrations.

The game-play driver here is to enhance the civilian sector, and to make it a little (or potentially a lot) cheaper to develop a system.  At present, most of the bodies in a system can only be mined using automatic mines, which cuts the number of populations (and hence variation in demand for trade goods) a lot.  If populations could be established on asteroids and there was commercial sector generation of mines, however, then the civie sector could drive the colonization of the small bodies in a system, which in turn would drive trade with the miners of such civilian sector essentials as "Betelgeuse Girls Gone Wild" DVDs.

Another game play advantage would be that it would give player races something else to spend wealth on.  Planetary populations could have demand for TN elements (hence the companies mining them), and you could add a mechanism for a player race to "out-bid" them, i.e. state a price which it will pay for particular minerals at a particular population.

The "cheaper to develop a system aspect" would come from a reduction in the need for automated mines, which at present (at least in my campaigns) consume a huge percentage of the output of factories and greatly slow economic growth.

 I can think of three places where the current version of Aurora might have problems:

1)  Divide-by-zero problems if the lower end of a populations G rating is 0.0.

2)  Terraforming: you shouldn't be able to put an atmosphere on an asteroid.

3)  Temperature:  there shouldn't be a big difference in colonization cost between an asteroid near the orbit of Mars and one near Jupiter; I would vote that the temperature penalty (at least for worlds that can't take an atmosphere) only apply on the "too hot" side.

Hmmm - item #2 above got me thinking about terraforming.  There's probably a nasty formula for just how much gas it takes to create one atmosphere of pressure on a particular world - small worlds should require less, but they also will typically have lower gravity which would require more.  I think the current model is ok, since most planets that will be terraformed will be big enough that it's not worth thinking about the complexity, but I remember how much emphasis you put on getting the physics right in your world generation routines.  If you want me to think about a formula for a "terraforming difficulty" multiple, i.e. a factor that multiples the rate of terraforming, let me know - I can probably come up with something that scales correctly at the extremes, even if it isn't strictly correct.

John
 

Offline sloanjh (OP)

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Re: 4.3 Suggestions
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2009, 10:48:58 AM »
Quote from: "sloanjh"
Hmmm - item #2 above got me thinking about terraforming.  There's probably a nasty formula for just how much gas it takes to create one atmosphere of pressure on a particular world - small worlds should require less, but they also will typically have lower gravity which would require more.  I think the current model is ok, since most planets that will be terraformed will be big enough that it's not worth thinking about the complexity, but I remember how much emphasis you put on getting the physics right in your world generation routines.  If you want me to think about a formula for a "terraforming difficulty" multiple, i.e. a factor that multiples the rate of terraforming, let me know - I can probably come up with something that scales correctly at the extremes, even if it isn't strictly correct.

I got curious this morning and decided to see if I could figure out the formula.  It turns out it's pretty simple, if you neglect the fall-off of gravity with altitude.  Basically, the amount (in terms of number of molecules) of gas you need to add to raise the pressure by one atmosphere is some constant times (planet_radius^2 / (molecular_weight*planet_surface_gravity)).  Note that this goes to infinity as the gravity goes to zero, and also scales with the surface area of the planet.  So I would recommend adding a "terraforming efficiency" property to each body that is the ratio of (radius^2/gravity) to that of Earth.  You could also add a gas-type dependent factor based on the gas' molecular weight, but there's lots of other factors that would make e.g. "safe greenhouse gas" more or less difficult to produce than oxygen, so it's probably not worth it.

This efficiency factor would take care of the asteroid problem - (radius^2/gravity) should go roughly like the radius of the body (since surface gravity goes like density*radius), so an asteroid with a radius of 6 km should be roughly 1000 times harder to terraform.

************************
EDIT:  Oh bleep, no it doesn't (solve the asteroid problem) - a body with a radius of 6 km would be roughly 1000 easier to terraform.  That means that the reason that you can't put a significant atmosphere on an asteroid is that its height would be many times the radius of the asteroid, or the mass of the atmosphere begins to swamp the mass of the asteroid and you're into a "gas giant" situation with a core atmosphere tuned to the pressure you want.  In any event, your're into the yukky calculation discussed below.
************************

One interesting thing is that this relationship doesn't depend on the temperature.  That's because of my assumption neglecting the fall-off of gravity with height in the atmospheric column - all that temperature really does is expand or contract the atmosphere.  Getting rid of that assumption is where the calculation would get nasty - then you'd have to model temperature, density, and pressure for the entire column, rather than just bundling it all into a simple effective height H.

John
 

Offline waresky

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Re: 4.3 Suggestions
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2009, 01:18:43 PM »
STEVE please...ERASE the "RABBIT" picture from RACE's ALIENS encounter or NPR generations...PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAASE:DDDDD

And pls...can u adding: Kkree (Traveller @) ...Zhodani (Traveller @)...Vegans (Solomani Rim Sector-traveller)...and at last..Merseians (Dominic Flandry's Earth Empire)..

and...MOTIES?...:D
 

Offline waresky

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WEAPONS RANGE or "Imperial Naval Base"
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2009, 01:58:35 PM »
Steve..

do u remember Traveller yeah?
An imperial Naval base are cohmprensive and wide range WHOLE System.

Weapons Range,testing ground..etc.etc..

Pleas..in UR program can u put an.."testing range" for New ships design?..a simulations for testing NEW ships design..are VERY NEEDED

e.g.: ive a newly missile Cruiser..(cost in maintenance same as 6 System Defence Boat "Striker I" Class..and am need to test if 6 Striker's are BETTER than a single Missile Cruiser..

only that:)))
 

Offline welchbloke

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Re: 4.3 Suggestions
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2009, 02:28:20 PM »
Quote from: "waresky"
STEVE please...ERASE the "RABBIT" picture from RACE's ALIENS encounter or NPR generations...PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAASE:DDDDD

And pls...can u adding: Kkree (Traveller @) ...Zhodani (Traveller @)...Vegans (Solomani Rim Sector-traveller)...and at last..Merseians (Dominic Flandry's Earth Empire)..

and...MOTIES?...:D
Ever seen Monty Python's Life of Brian?  Some rabbits can be VERY ferocious  :D
Welchbloke
 

Offline waresky

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Re: 4.3 Suggestions
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2009, 02:29:41 PM »
lool Welch:)
okok..but Precursors RABBITS on Space?...bleah...blast'em..
 

Offline sloanjh (OP)

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Re: 4.3 Suggestions
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2009, 03:30:52 PM »
Quote from: "welchbloke"
Quote from: "waresky"
STEVE please...ERASE the "RABBIT" picture from RACE's ALIENS encounter or NPR generations...PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAASE:DDDDD

And pls...can u adding: Kkree (Traveller @) ...Zhodani (Traveller @)...Vegans (Solomani Rim Sector-traveller)...and at last..Merseians (Dominic Flandry's Earth Empire)..

and...MOTIES?...:D
Ever seen Monty Python's Life of Brian?  Some rabbits can be VERY ferocious  :D

I was thinking of Tunnel in the Sky....

John
 

Offline waresky

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Graphical GeoSurvey?:) NASA "docet"
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2009, 11:18:17 AM »
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_VgbOrdteh5w/SnmEhS9J49I/AAAAAAAACAw/ONLKSCak54c/s1600/376444main_UV-Visible-Earthlook-spectrum.jpg

More interesting,just in case if u,Steve,will use some "graphical" effort on Aurora.

u know..am LOVE SHips icons,same as traveller's "Spinward Marches Campaign" game.-.-
 

Offline rdgam

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Re: 4.3 Suggestions
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2009, 06:31:16 PM »
It would be nice once you achieve full communications with an NPR, you got to see what they call thier race.
 

Offline Beersatron

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Re: 4.3 Suggestions
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2009, 11:14:10 PM »
Would it be possible to give an optional indicator to the user that would signify when an NPR is going something 'intensive'?

i.e. I am getting some freezes and it looks like it may be in regard to the Duranium shortage that somebody mentioned in the bug thread. But, I guess there is the possibility that it is due to some other activity - maybe?

It would mean that if I had selected to have this optional indicator displayed whilst an NPR was engaged in something that was going to take 30 seconds or so of CPU time then I would be less hasty to End Task on the process.

I realize that different PCs will be capable of more or less depending on the setup, the 20 seconds was just an example number. I have actually left Aurora running for 2 hours once when it hung - just to be sure  :shock:
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: 4.3 Suggestions
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2009, 03:42:11 AM »
Steve,
Is it possible to add mobile shipyard vessels or else the possibility to pre-fab bases and then assemble them using planetary industry or even both?  I am not a fan of tractor beams I'm afraid and this would allow of the creation of space based defensive and industrial infrastructure.  I'd limit the mobile yards to just assembly tasks though otherwise they might be too effective but since there are the construction ships this makes some sort of sense.
 

Offline sloanjh (OP)

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Re: 4.3 Suggestions
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2009, 10:17:43 PM »
Give a rating to tractor beam installations, e.g. 10kton or 10Mton*kps - the first is a pure mass rating, the second is mass*speed (actually, it should probably be the speed difference).  I prefer the mass*speed difference limit - that way your maximum speed difference could be limited by the mass of the object being towed.  The idea is that the bigger the object you want to tow, and the more you want to increase its speed, the more stress on the tractor and hence the more tractors needed.  This would mean you'd want to put a lot of tractors on a commercial tug (since they're so big) but not necessarily that many on a military tug.

John
 

Offline IanD

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Re: 4.3 Suggestions
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2009, 03:26:01 AM »
Quote
John wrote
One interesting thing is that this relationship doesn't depend on the temperature. That's because of my assumption neglecting the fall-off of gravity with height in the atmospheric column - all that temperature really does is expand or contract the atmosphere. Getting rid of that assumption is where the calculation would get nasty - then you'd have to model temperature, density, and pressure for the entire column, rather than just bundling it all into a simple effective height H.

But isn’t the asteroid or other body to which you are trying to add an atmosphere to required to be above the boiling point of the gas? That's 77K for nitrogen.

I would prefer to see a race’s tolerance to gravity be skewed so they can endure 0g on airless asteroids with infrastructure but have an upper limit of (say) 1.5g not 2g if your optimum is 1g.
In fact I would argue that you should only have an upper limit for gravity, but increasing requirements for infrastructure for lower gravity depending on how far from the race norm it is, my rationale being that infrastructure includes such things as gyms with centrifuges etc.

This will enable you to colonise your mining colonies. In 4.1 I had civilian freighters dumping infrastructure on Titan when it was only an archaeological dig. I assume the shipping lines would do the same for your mining colonies once you have placed your seed infrastructure in 4.26.

Regards
IanD
 

Offline IanD

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Re: 4.3 Suggestions
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2009, 05:02:28 AM »
I have had a few more thoughts on gravity and the tolerance thereof.

From the NASA hyper gravity experiments a planet with a gravity of 2g is probably too high to be a realistic colonisation target. So lets assume a colonist from Earth could colonise a planet with a gravity of 1.5g, accepting the lowered life expectancy etc. Thus as a starting point lets allow your race to be able to tolerate 0g to 1.5g with the optimum at 1g.

However matters then get complicated. While colonists from Earth could colonise Mars its doubtful whether colonists from Mars could colonise Earth or any other 1g planet. Since Mars has a gravity about a third that of the Earth your Martian colonists would have a maximum tolerance of approximately 0.5. While your colonists from the 1.5 g world could, after adapting (however long that may take) colonise a planet with a gravity of 2.25. Thus you end up with divergent populations with different g tolerances. In addition while the human body appears to adapt to low g environments quite rapidly it is likely to adapt to high g environments quite slowly over generations.

The end result for me is that in future games I will reduce my optimum g tolerance to 0.75-1.25 although this may still be too large a spread. I would still like to have the ability to colonise 0g environments but with an irreducible infrastructure requirement. Thus Mars would have an atmosphere penalty and a gravity penalty. With terraforming I can eliminate the former, but unless Steve introduces artificial gravity there is nothing to be done about the latter. So I would like the habitability index to consist of two numbers, one for the atmosphere and one for the gravity which sum to give the total habitability index. I am sure Steve could knock this off in an evening :wink:  .

Anyone have any other thoughts?

Regards
IanD
 

Offline waresky

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Re: 4.3 Suggestions
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2009, 10:24:34 AM »
Hydrogen-base Motor engine..

So i prefer found a H,instead a Sorium.

Why,Steve,u put a "Sorium" minerals on Gas Giant?..in Traveller are Hydrogen the Fuel..
gas Giant,not all obviously,are MAINLY resource for a battle Fleet (remember Spinward marches Campaign and Imperium)
And an H2O Planet are STRATEGICAL interesting than others..
But in Traveller an planet with a less 1 digit in H20 = zero water...so my question are:
Steve u can CHANGE whole Refuel system and make them more real?

Hydrogen instead Sorium.
Are too hard?

Difference between "raw" Hydrogen than a refined H?