Author Topic: "Standard" speeds for engine tech; an idea that really needs feedback  (Read 7359 times)

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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: "Standard" speeds for engine tech; an idea that really needs feedback
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2022, 04:34:43 PM »
Old thread by yet interesting discussion... :)

I don't think there is any "standard" speeds at all... at least not in the games that I have played when playing multi-faction games. Speed has been more of a strategic or tactical tool where each faction tried to get some advantage in some form, be that speed or mission tonnage.

Usually what I have seen in my games as different factions tries to outmanoeuvre each other in the area if logistics, production, technology and tactics then speed of their ships is only one factor among many. I also found that most factions had many different speeds on their ships based on their function. There are things like research to take into account, that is... multiple types of especially large engines can be very research intensive. Large engines might be effective and efficient by leave very little room for different design optimization and ship roles.

A faction with a unified speed is also allot easier to design a more optimised counter in respect to missiles design, beam weapon targeting systems and even your own ship designs. If you know that all enemy ships have a 5000km/s speed you can design some ships to be faster and some slower depending on their role, which give the opponent problem when engaging on a strategic level. Perhaps most of the scouting elements and front line ships are faster while the heavy hitter is slower but carry more weapons rather than engines, this more dynamic force set up will give you advantages that is difficult to put numbers on.

In my experience, so far, is that factions generally base their engine designs on the fuel efficiency of the drives and expected operational range of the ships. Therefore most capital ships end up in about 0.6 to 0.8 in fuel efficiency for combat ranges of about 15-30 billion km. Ships with lower operational range can have much less fuel efficient engines. This seem to be about what the logistical system can expect to support in general.

If you make your engine extremely fuel efficient you just get very large engines for no good reasons as ships really don't need hundreds of billions of operational range without the use of tankers or refuelling stations inside your own borders. It is better to offload the engine and fuel mass to the logistical side rather than the military side.

This means that the larger the ship and engines you use (or better technology) the higher the power factor usually become to keep that efficiency within roughly 0.6 to 0.8 fuel efficiency of the ships. This means either more speed or more missions tonnage and a relatively linear logistical burden on your fleet with the same mass fleet over time. You still need roughly the same amount of tankers for the fleet now as you do in the future. This also make long term planning allot easier... both in terms of tankers but also in the whole logistical chain.

The actual speed of your ships should in general be based on the strategic needs. You might have some ships flagged as a tactical manoeuvre or scout force where higher speed is more important. They need to be able to both engage and disengage more frequently than your main fleet would. The main combat ships, such as carriers, might not need that much speed. Once you commit them you should be very confident that you can bring overwhelming force or stay hidden from the enemy to retreat if necessary, they probably also will be screened by faster ships that find and fix the enemy before you commit the heavy hitters. Less speed means more weapons you can unleash at the enemy.

In my campaigns it also have never been so simple, as factions rarely have the option to have only ONE type of main combat ships in a specific point in time. Fleets will always be in a state of flux and newer ships will be mixed with older ones all the time. Even different systems on ships might be in different state of upgrade status. In such complex environments you don't have time to keep everything universal, that is neither efficient nor practical.
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: "Standard" speeds for engine tech; an idea that really needs feedback
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2022, 07:34:02 PM »
Old thread by yet interesting discussion... :)

I don't think there is any "standard" speeds at all... at least not in the games that I have played when playing multi-faction games.

I will add - not to disagree at all, as I agree with the rest, but for the sake of informing future readers of this old thread :-) - that for games with a single player faction against NPRs it is possible to at least put some limits on the concept of "standard speed".

(Spoilers in case someone reading this thread in the future prefers to discover facts about NPR behavior on their own:)
The NPRs build military ships with between 30% to 42% of their tonnage allocated to engines with the base 1.0x EP modifier. If you are looking for a "standard speed", this range is the closest you can find to such a concept. For example, at Ion Drive tech (12.5 EP/HS), NPR ships would have a speed in the range from 3,750 km/s to 5,250 km/s and usually trend towards the middle of this range.

Of course, as Jorgen elaborates once you have multiple player races involved the idea of a "standard" speed is hazy at best. Anecdotally, I tend to find that engine mass fractions in the range from 32% to 40% work best for typical combat ships, as much more than this means you start running out of tonnage to mount weapons, etc. while too much less than this tends to leave not enough speed for both tactical and strategic needs. Of course, specialized ships can fall outside of this range for any number of very good reasons.
 
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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: "Standard" speeds for engine tech; an idea that really needs feedback
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2022, 05:08:55 AM »
Old thread by yet interesting discussion... :)

I don't think there is any "standard" speeds at all... at least not in the games that I have played when playing multi-faction games.

I will add - not to disagree at all, as I agree with the rest, but for the sake of informing future readers of this old thread :-) - that for games with a single player faction against NPRs it is possible to at least put some limits on the concept of "standard speed".

(Spoilers in case someone reading this thread in the future prefers to discover facts about NPR behavior on their own:)
The NPRs build military ships with between 30% to 42% of their tonnage allocated to engines with the base 1.0x EP modifier. If you are looking for a "standard speed", this range is the closest you can find to such a concept. For example, at Ion Drive tech (12.5 EP/HS), NPR ships would have a speed in the range from 3,750 km/s to 5,250 km/s and usually trend towards the middle of this range.

Of course, as Jorgen elaborates once you have multiple player races involved the idea of a "standard" speed is hazy at best. Anecdotally, I tend to find that engine mass fractions in the range from 32% to 40% work best for typical combat ships, as much more than this means you start running out of tonnage to mount weapons, etc. while too much less than this tends to leave not enough speed for both tactical and strategic needs. Of course, specialized ships can fall outside of this range for any number of very good reasons.

Yes... that seems fair...

I have had engine ratio as low as 25% (low fuel efficiency but high powered ones) in some cases though... I even had factions that used commercial engines on some of their major ships such as Carriers as building jump engines for very large ships was simply too expensive to research, as well as the engines for the ships... but they still wanted huge ships. It actually worked OK for them in the end, not every ship need allot of speed, it depends on the doctrine and resources available.

Personally I think close to 40% engine and fuel is on the painful upper limit of mass... that leaves very little room for actual weapons and defences. For some specialized ships then it might make sense, such as a pure beam ship where speed is more important.

Allot of people forget that engines is very expensive and when you are in a more competitive environment then cost is also a major factor, both in terms of resources and technology. Lower speed can be circumvented with tactics and quantity. I have had factions on both ends of the spectrum and all of them doing just fine for different reasons.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 05:16:33 AM by Jorgen_CAB »
 
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