Point defence failure

[Kaiser (OP)]

I remember that in the old Aurora version there was a bug that time to time prevented the corrected enemy missile detection while using automatic turns, has this been solved?

I present my case:

- I have a fleet with several ships, armed with a lot of lasers and CIWS all of them correctly set, the fleet is moving toward the enemy which is firing missile salvos of variable size (sometime 2 salvo of 7x missile, sometime 4 salvo of 7x missile.

- due to the nature of the combat, I am using automatic movement with sub-pulse set to automatic. Increment length set to 2-5 minutes, once I detect the new salvos, I switch the length to 30s, when the salvos are very close to me, I switch to 5s.

- Now, using this method my ships are able to shot down all the missiles at point defence, while my ships get close to the enemies.

- The issue: depending on some unknown circumstances, time to time my ships cannot detect the incoming salvos and are hit.

Why? If my ships proved to be able to take down 28 missiles, 3-4 times in a row, while sometimes they cannot? Is this detection bug still there?

If it can help I can upload last events or the ships configuration.
 

[nuclearslurpee]

You still need to actually be able to detect them prior to impact in order to conduct point defense fire.

The change/fix from VB6 is that you can no longer design short-range "torpedoes" which cross the PD envelope in <5 sec after launch and avoid all PD fire. In C#, missiles are launched in one increment and move in the next, ensuring they can be detected prior to impact if launched at close range. However, you do still have to detect them prior to impact.

In principle this might be solvable by moving the detection step between the movement and missile-detonation steps, but I think this is rather realistic as a mechanic, since in reality if your crew is not on alert or at action stations (i.e., moving the clock in long increments) because they do not expect danger, then of course they will be taken by surprised and suffer damage.

[Garfunkel]

Turn auto-turns on, then click 5 sec and the game will keep going until the salvo reaches your PD. That'll make it lot more feasible to approach the enemy while keeping your defences up without risking the longer increments.

[Kaiser (OP)]

That's what I do not get, let's look at the last events:

- In the beginning, the two salvo (x31 and x7) are correctly detected and then shot down, all of them.

- Then other two salvo (x7 and x7), there's a first contact when the enemy launch them, then it seems I am missing the step "Hostile contact update" which happened in the previous salvo and the outcome is that my ships are hit.

So what's the difference between the two?

[Kaiser (OP)]

Turn auto-turns on, then click 5 sec and the game will keep going until the salvo reaches your PD. That'll make it lot more feasible to approach the enemy while keeping your defences up without risking the longer increments.

This is what I wanted avoid, I am still 70millions Km distant from the enemy, playing with 5s increment only will take ages before I can reach and engage them with lasers and other stuff, they are firing about every 20 minutes and have thousands of missles.

[nuclearslurpee]

That's what I do not get, let's look at the last events:

- In the beginning, the two salvo (x31 and x7) are correctly detected and then shot down, all of them.

- Then other two salvo (x7 and x7), there's a first contact when the enemy launch them, then it seems I am missing the step "Hostile contact update" which happened in the previous salvo and the outcome is that my ships are hit.

So what's the difference between the two?

In the first screenshot, you have acquired the missiles on active sensors - you can tell this because the size of the contact is visible.

In the second screenshot, you have acquired the missiles on passive sensors only - you can tell this because you get a thermal reading but not a size reading. Then, when you press the next increment it skips a full 30 seconds rather than the needed 5-second sub-increment, and the missiles cross your active sensor envelope before you can acquire them, and detonate.

For better or worse, manually forcing 5-second sub-increments as Garfunkel said is the correct solution, as part of Aurora is learning how to manage the increments system. Note that you can select whatever sub-increment you want and then press whatever main increment button you want - so you can set the sub-increment to 5 seconds, and still press the 20 minutes main increment to advance time by up to 20 minutes, you do not have to keep pressing 5s over and over. This may take longer to calculate, but the alternative would be a "real-time" calculation and that I assure you would take even longer.

Alternatively, once a missile contact shows up on your thermal sensors, switch to 5-sec or 30-sec increments (if you use 30-sec main increments, the sub-increment is always 5 seconds) until the missiles are acquired on active sensors. This is usually how I handle my approach against missile-launching opponents.

[Kaiser (OP)]

That's what I do not get, let's look at the last events:

- In the beginning, the two salvo (x31 and x7) are correctly detected and then shot down, all of them.

- Then other two salvo (x7 and x7), there's a first contact when the enemy launch them, then it seems I am missing the step "Hostile contact update" which happened in the previous salvo and the outcome is that my ships are hit.

So what's the difference between the two?

In the first screenshot, you have acquired the missiles on active sensors - you can tell this because the size of the contact is visible.

In the second screenshot, you have acquired the missiles on passive sensors only - you can tell this because you get a thermal reading but not a size reading. Then, when you press the next increment it skips a full 30 seconds rather than the needed 5-second sub-increment, and the missiles cross your active sensor envelope before you can acquire them, and detonate.

For better or worse, manually forcing 5-second sub-increments as Garfunkel said is the correct solution, as part of Aurora is learning how to manage the increments system. Note that you can select whatever sub-increment you want and then press whatever main increment button you want - so you can set the sub-increment to 5 seconds, and still press the 20 minutes main increment to advance time by up to 20 minutes, you do not have to keep pressing 5s over and over. This may take longer to calculate, but the alternative would be a "real-time" calculation and that I assure you would take even longer.

Alternatively, once a missile contact shows up on your thermal sensors, switch to 5-sec or 30-sec increments (if you use 30-sec main increments, the sub-increment is always 5 seconds) until the missiles are acquired on active sensors. This is usually how I handle my approach against missile-launching opponents.

So, basically somehting like that? Sub increment 5s (not auto) and then whatever main increment I want?

[Steve Walmsley]

On the second occasion you only had a thermal contact for the missiles, which means you couldn't target them. At what range can your active sensors detect missiles and how fast are the missiles? The missiles may have passed through active sensor range in a single increment, so you could not get an active lock for engagement.

[Kaiser (OP)]

On the second occasion you only had a thermal contact for the missiles, which means you couldn't target them. At what range can your active sensors detect missiles and how fast are the missiles? The missiles may have passed through active sensor range in a single increment, so you could not get an active lock for engagement.

The enemy missiles are 34218 Km/s fast.

I have different active sensors on my fleet, they are:
- Active Search Sensor AS50-R170 (70%) (1)     GPS 5440     Range 50m km    Resolution 170
- Active Search Sensor AS1-R1 (70%) (5)     GPS 2     Range 1.7m km    MCR 157.3k km    Resolution 1
- Active Search Sensor AS20-R100 (70%) (1)     GPS 800     Range 20.9m km    Resolution 100

I understood that in the second occasion I had a thermal contact only, but what's not clear is why sometime I detect them with the active sensors and other times no, they are the same missiles, the second active sensor should be able to detect them every time or not?

It might be because my ships are moving, so time to time the distance is not enough to detect them in a single increment due to the missiles are very fast.

I would like to understand how Aurora manage these increments and the logic behind and how to correctly set the auto increments in such situations.

[JacenHan]

On the second occasion you only had a thermal contact for the missiles, which means you couldn't target them. At what range can your active sensors detect missiles and how fast are the missiles? The missiles may have passed through active sensor range in a single increment, so you could not get an active lock for engagement.

The enemy missiles are 34218 Km/s fast.

I have different active sensors on my fleet, they are:
- Active Search Sensor AS50-R170 (70%) (1)     GPS 5440     Range 50m km    Resolution 170
- Active Search Sensor AS1-R1 (70%) (5)     GPS 2     Range 1.7m km    MCR 157.3k km    Resolution 1
- Active Search Sensor AS20-R100 (70%) (1)     GPS 800     Range 20.9m km    Resolution 100

I understood that in the second occasion I had a thermal contact only, but what's not clear is why sometime I detect them with the active sensors and other times no, they are the same missiles, the second active sensor should be able to detect them every time or not?

It might be because my ships are moving, so time to time the distance is not enough to detect them in a single increment due to the missiles are very fast.

I would like to understand how Aurora manage these increments and the logic behind and how to correctly set the auto increments in such situations.

The enemy missiles travel 171,090km (34,218x5) in a single 5-second increment, while your second sensor can only detect the smallest missiles (less than size 6 IIRC) at a range of 157,300km. This means that occasionally a salvo could end up within ~15,000km outside your sensors and then hit your ship on the next increment without being detected. The MCR range on the sensor is the range to detect the smallest sizes of missiles, the full 1.7m km range is for 50-ton ships.

If your ships are moving towards the enemy, the effective speed of the missiles is higher (missile speed + your ship speed), if they are moving away, the effective speed is lower (missile speed - your ship speed).

[Kaiser (OP)]

On the second occasion you only had a thermal contact for the missiles, which means you couldn't target them. At what range can your active sensors detect missiles and how fast are the missiles? The missiles may have passed through active sensor range in a single increment, so you could not get an active lock for engagement.

The enemy missiles are 34218 Km/s fast.

I have different active sensors on my fleet, they are:
- Active Search Sensor AS50-R170 (70%) (1)     GPS 5440     Range 50m km    Resolution 170
- Active Search Sensor AS1-R1 (70%) (5)     GPS 2     Range 1.7m km    MCR 157.3k km    Resolution 1
- Active Search Sensor AS20-R100 (70%) (1)     GPS 800     Range 20.9m km    Resolution 100

I understood that in the second occasion I had a thermal contact only, but what's not clear is why sometime I detect them with the active sensors and other times no, they are the same missiles, the second active sensor should be able to detect them every time or not?

It might be because my ships are moving, so time to time the distance is not enough to detect them in a single increment due to the missiles are very fast.

I would like to understand how Aurora manage these increments and the logic behind and how to correctly set the auto increments in such situations.

The enemy missiles travel 171,090km (34,218x5) in a single 5-second increment, while your second sensor can only detect the smallest missiles (less than size 6 IIRC) at a range of 157,300km. This means that occasionally a salvo could end up within ~15,000km outside your sensors and then hit your ship on the next increment without being detected. The MCR range on the sensor is the range to detect the smallest sizes of missiles, the full 1.7m km range is for 50-ton ships.

If your ships are moving towards the enemy, the effective speed of the missiles is higher (missile speed + your ship speed), if they are moving away, the effective speed is lower (missile speed - your ship speed).

There it is! Thank you Jacenhan and of course all of you guys and Steve, now it is more clear to me.

[KriegsMeister]

Steve, is only movement and impact updated on the new 1 sec sub-pulse or is detection also bundled in. If not it might be beneficial to add that check in in order to have PD respond in the last 2-4 seconds of the 5 sec increment when a missile actually crosses into the detection range. Would still not help if the missile can cross the envelope in 1 sec, but that would be super rare case with extreme technology gaps

[nuclearslurpee]

Steve, is only movement and impact updated on the new 1 sec sub-pulse or is detection also bundled in. If not it might be beneficial to add that check in in order to have PD respond in the last 2-4 seconds of the 5 sec increment when a missile actually crosses into the detection range. Would still not help if the missile can cross the envelope in 1 sec, but that would be super rare case with extreme technology gaps

Maybe only missile detection, detection in general I think is one of the most expensive calculations so you do not want to do it galaxy-wide every second, but just where missiles (with targets - not just sensor buoys!) are present should be reasonable.

[Kaiser (OP)]

Yeah, I think the 1s missile detection should be implemented. One thing is not being able to detect a ship, another one is losing ships because the 5s time increment.