Author Topic: Particle beams the new DPS go-to even at lower ranges?  (Read 1160 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nakorkren (OP)

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • n
  • Posts: 217
  • Thanked: 194 times
  • Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
Particle beams the new DPS go-to even at lower ranges?
« on: August 06, 2023, 10:30:43 PM »
A while back Yonder did an excellent analysis of beam weapon damage over range (http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=Beam_Overview) as part of the wiki article titled "Beam Overview". Since then particle beam size was changed to be fixed at 300 tons regardless of caliber, and particle lances have been added. It seems like particle beams will now get better and better from a DPS/ton perspective as tech level goes up, since all the other weapons increase size with caliber. As such, particle beams could become the king of DPS above a lower range threshold than before (ballpark 100km) once you hit techs that cost 8k to 10k to research.

Additionally, plasma carronades are to have their size cut in half (vs laser of same focal size) and their focal tech cost cut in half to boot, so the balance will have shifted significantly on them as well. Not to mention (funny phrase, that) reduced size rail guns being added and then changed further with upcoming charging changes.

It would be really helpful to revisit the calculations and plots Yonder did. I was getting set to go do the math, but if Yonder's still around and has the code/analysis/plots he could update it a lot faster than I could recreate it. Yonder, are you able/would you be willing to? If not, has anyone done the math already, or do I need to just go spend a few hours in matlab while ignoring my responsibilities?
 

Offline Aloriel

  • Lieutenant
  • *******
  • Posts: 184
  • Thanked: 90 times
Re: Particle beams the new DPS go-to even at lower ranges?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2023, 02:29:23 PM »
While particle lances have their place, they are nowhere near king of DPS. The advantage of a particle lance is that it does damage in a straight line through armor and does full damage out to maximum range. The disadvantage is that they take up quite a lot of space for their damage and perhaps more importantly, their power requirements. Consider these two items:

Code: [Select]
35.0cm C8 X-Ray Laser
Cost 316.8   Size 550 tons   Crew 33   HTK 5
Base Chance to hit 100%
Materials Required: Duranium  63.4    Boronide  63.4    Corundium  190.1   

Code: [Select]
Particle Lance-24 C8-500
Cost 929.4   Size 1,000 tons   Crew 60   HTK 10
Base Chance to hit 100%
Materials Required: Duranium  185.9    Boronide  185.9    Corundium  557.6   

The particle lance only does 24, but it does 24 out to maximum range. The laser peters off, but does 32 out to maybe 60,000km. Only by 100,000 has it dropped below the particle lance's damage.

Here they both are, installed on a ship, with range increments set to 20,000km:
Code: [Select]
35.0cm C8 X-Ray Laser (20)    Range 480,000km     TS: 10,000 km/s     Power 32-8     RM 70,000 km    ROF 20        32 32 32 27 22 18 16 14 12 11
Particle Lance-24 C8-500 (4)    Range 480,000km     TS: 10,000 km/s     Power 75-8    ROF 50        24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24

As you can see, my capacitors are going to only allow the PL to fire every 50 seconds. Meanwhile, the laser is every 20 seconds. And yet, the laser is half the tonnage.

The best defense against a PL is shields. Shields will regen quite a lot in 50 seconds..
« Last Edit: August 07, 2023, 02:33:57 PM by Aloriel »
Sarah
Game Developer in Unity and UE4 and 5
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • ***********
  • J
  • Posts: 2837
  • Thanked: 673 times
Re: Particle beams the new DPS go-to even at lower ranges?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2023, 05:27:13 PM »
He was speaking about Particle Beams DPS due to fixed size of 300 tons rather than Lances though...

On the other hand laser for example have other traits that makes them very good such as the possibility to put them into turret, very important for the new missile changes for example. Railgun likewise. DPS in beam combat is not all that matters for why you use a particular beam type weapon.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

  • Aurora Designer
  • Star Marshal
  • S
  • Posts: 11667
  • Thanked: 20439 times
Re: Particle beams the new DPS go-to even at lower ranges?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2023, 07:43:23 PM »
He was speaking about Particle Beams DPS due to fixed size of 300 tons rather than Lances though...

On the other hand laser for example have other traits that makes them very good such as the possibility to put them into turret, very important for the new missile changes for example. Railgun likewise. DPS in beam combat is not all that matters for why you use a particular beam type weapon.

Particle Lance is fixed size of 600 tons in v2.2
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2981
  • Thanked: 2242 times
  • Radioactive frozen beverage.
Re: Particle beams the new DPS go-to even at lower ranges?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2023, 08:18:13 PM »
DPS in beam combat is not all that matters for why you use a particular beam type weapon.

If every Aurora player repeated this seven times a day before bed, the world would be a better place.
 
The following users thanked this post: Warer

Offline Garfunkel

  • Registered
  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2791
  • Thanked: 1052 times
Re: Particle beams the new DPS go-to even at lower ranges?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2023, 10:42:47 PM »
Well, I think the point of OP was that the Wiki article needs updating for 2.2 and that update requires !!!MATH!!!

Which I agree with but luckily, I'm a historian, not a mathematician so I can leave this endeavour to you unnatural science people.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2981
  • Thanked: 2242 times
  • Radioactive frozen beverage.
Re: Particle beams the new DPS go-to even at lower ranges?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2023, 10:56:39 PM »
Well, I think the point of OP was that the Wiki article needs updating for 2.2 and that update requires !!!MATH!!!

Which I agree with but luckily, I'm a historian, not a mathematician so I can leave this endeavour to you unnatural science people.

Who even still has edit access to the wiki, never mind actually updating it? I don't think even the C# pages have been updated since release.
 

Offline nakorkren (OP)

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • n
  • Posts: 217
  • Thanked: 194 times
  • Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
Re: Particle beams the new DPS go-to even at lower ranges?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2023, 11:36:49 PM »
100% agree with nuclearslurpee and Jorgen that DPS is not the only consideration in beam combat, or even the most important. I very specifically did NOT say "particle beams are the go-to weapon" or "the best weapon now". In my games where I don't use missiles against NPCs, I find that PD is the overriding concern for fleet composition since you have to survive AMM spam to reach engagement range.

That said, my thesis (and the title of the post) is that the changes to particle beams make them more effective at DPS than lasers/railguns at significantly shorter ranges than before, because their damage per ton gets better and better as tech levels go up. In fact, even at point blank range particle beams outperform lasers in damage per hull space for the last two tech levels (1M and 2M RP, although I've never gotten that far), which was never even close to the case before. Once you start looking at ranges beyond the range modifier, that cross-over point comes much earlier in the tech progression. From a game design perspective, I think this is great! Balances shifting as tech moves along helps keep things fresh and make it more difficult to min-max.

Alorial, as Steve confirmed below, particle beams are now fixed at 300t each regardless of caliber, and particle lances are likewise fixed at 600. That means for 600 tons you can get one 35cm laser doing 32 damage or 2x particle beams doing 12 damage each (24 total) at any range. ROF is the same (20s for particle beam and for laser), although the laser has better penetration due to being a single larger shot and having the better damage template. As I guessed in my original post, the break-even range is around 100km.

Nuclearslurpee, I'm thinking out loud here, but the ability to turret lasers doesn't seem like that big of an advantage, unless you're planning to be slower than your targets*. If you're committed to beam combat, I usually try to be fast enough to control range (either keep a gap open to best utilize particle beam/lance advantage at distance or quickly close distance to get best damage out of railguns/lasers/plasma carronades). If you're going faster than your enemy to control the range, you don't need to turret your large lasers to be able to hit them. If you're not going faster because they're using FACs or fighters, you're probably better off countering with your own fighters or PD weapons (gauss, AMM, or small ASMs) than turreted lasers. Please poke holes in my logic!

*Planning to be slower than your targets is potentially viable, if you're approach is to put tonnage into weapons and armor/shielding, and move slowly to the location you desire to hold. You give up the ability to force an engagement range that is optimal for your weapon loadout, but you may be able to afford to do that because you have a proportionally heavier weight of armor/weapons since you spent less tonnage/cost/MSP on engines. I have not previously attempted to use that strategy, but am curious if others have found it effective.

All the above said, I am still very curious to see Yonder's chart updated, if he's willing to do so, since I think there may be some valuable conclusions to be drawn. Garfunkel, I have edit access, and updated the damage profiles on the laser article a few months back to add the particle lance. To your point though, I don't care so much about getting the wiki updated as just seeing the results of that specific set of charts being updated with the new rules/values.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2981
  • Thanked: 2242 times
  • Radioactive frozen beverage.
Re: Particle beams the new DPS go-to even at lower ranges?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2023, 11:50:59 PM »
Nuclearslurpee, I'm thinking out loud here, but the ability to turret lasers doesn't seem like that big of an advantage, unless you're planning to be slower than your targets*. If you're committed to beam combat, I usually try to be fast enough to control range (either keep a gap open to best utilize particle beam/lance advantage at distance or quickly close distance to get best damage out of railguns/lasers/plasma carronades). If you're going faster than your enemy to control the range, you don't need to turret your large lasers to be able to hit them. If you're not going faster because they're using FACs or fighters, you're probably better off countering with your own fighters or PD weapons (gauss, AMM, or small ASMs) than turreted lasers. Please poke holes in my logic!

This was actually Jorgen's point, but I can still chime in. The idea of turreting lasers is flexibility, they can be used as tolerable point defense (though turret lasers are not very good for pure PD) and with the new NPR ship designs can be valuable in an anti-fighter role as well, while maintaining decent anti-ship capability (10cm lasers are not great against ships, but they do a lot better than 10cm railguns or Gauss cannons at ranges beyond point-blank). Personally, I don't rely on turreted lasers very much, but in 2.2 they are likely to have a bigger niche.

Additionally, in 2.2 there will be laser warheads for missiles which can detonate at standoff ranges, so you would need a longer-ranged PD weapon to defeat these and laser turrets are a good option there, probably cheaper than AMMs as well.

Quote
*Planning to be slower than your targets is potentially viable, if you're approach is to put tonnage into weapons and armor/shielding, and move slowly to the location you desire to hold. You give up the ability to force an engagement range that is optimal for your weapon loadout, but you may be able to afford to do that because you have a proportionally heavier weight of armor/weapons since you spent less tonnage/cost/MSP on engines. I have not previously attempted to use that strategy, but am curious if others have found it effective.

It works best with (in rough order): Carrier fleets, missile fleets, and long-ranged beam fleets (primarily lasers, which outrange anything else worth mentioning at a given tech level). In general, the shorter your weapon range, the faster your ships need to be to close the range and deal damage.

The big disadvantage to slow fleets is that you lose ability to control the range against a dangerous or superior opponent, and especially you lose the ability to decline an engagement unless you are very careful to ensure an escape route in every situation. Against NPRs this is not usually a serious problem due to their predictability, but against another player race this can be a death sentence unless your sensor coverage is one step short of omniscience.

I wouldn't consciously plan on being slower than my enemies as a doctrinal imperative, but it can come up especially as a game goes on and larger ships with larger engines become increasingly expensive to build and maintain, and you start looking at reduced engine power modifiers (90% or 80%, maybe even lower) to keep costs down and logistics manageable. In my opinion, at this point it makes sense to start having multiple doctrinal speeds so that you have some ships (likely of relatively smaller classes) which can run at full power when called for, e.g., in a screening role.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • ***********
  • J
  • Posts: 2837
  • Thanked: 673 times
Re: Particle beams the new DPS go-to even at lower ranges?
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2023, 07:07:05 AM »
A variable speed fleet can potentially be allot more efficient than a fleet with one common speed... they serve two different train of thoughts in terms of what is efficient. If you have a pure beam fleet you will need to put ALLOT of resources into making sure you are very fast at all times. A mixed speed fleet does not have to do that and can save resources for other things and still have portion of their fleet as fast or probably even faster.

This also ties into beam combat and how it can be done and how efficiently your ships can fight in close range engagements and what beam weapons you choose to use. Laser for example gives you a wide range of flexibility and could be the ONLY beam weapons you divert resources into, so less overall research needed in that case. If you research particle beams you probably also need to at least research railguns or gauss as a secondary weapons system for PD depending on circumstances and how much reliance you make on missiles.

At the end of the day it is more of a strategical thing rather than tactical to have the proper resources at the right place. It is more important that you can strategically manage to out manoeuvre the enemy by having a much larger fleet where an engagement occur than what specific weapons you use, so... strategy and knowledge of enemy presence and strength is more important. No one in their right mind intend to fight a fair fight if they can help it... ;)

So, even if you have a weapon system that is sub optimal in most situations but flexible can strategically be very strong.

In general I think the change will make particle weapons more relevant because it have more DPS in beam combat. Close range beam combat is already a minor part of the game anyway, missiles are still the most strategically powerful weapon in the game as a single system. Not saying that beam weapons is not important or anything, but still...
« Last Edit: August 09, 2023, 09:59:53 AM by Jorgen_CAB »