Aurora 4x
C# Aurora => C# Bureau of Design => Topic started by: xenoscepter on March 06, 2022, 02:00:59 AM
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--- As the name implies, this survey ship is awful. It's very speedy for Ion Tech though, being 80% engine... the extra 1,000 litres of fuel gives it 24 hours of wiggle room. Good overall fuel economy too, she'll do basically the entire solar system.
Galileo Class Survey Ship (P) 7,500 tons 123 Crew 564.9 BP TCS 150 TH 750 EM 0
5000 km/s Armour 1-34 Shields 0-0 HTK 32 Sensors 0/0/1/1 DCR 7 PPV 0
Maint Life 3.29 Years MSP 358 AFR 60% IFR 0.8% 1YR 50 5YR 748 Max Repair 100 MSP
Commander Control Rating 1 BRG
Intended Deployment Time: 4.8 months Morale Check Required
Baca Marine T3000-100T Ion Drive, Class 375/050C (2) Power 750.0 Fuel Use 5.77% Signature 375.00 Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 151,000 Litres Range 62.8 billion km (145 days at full power)
Geological Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
Gravitational Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Survey Ship for auto-assignment purposes
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I always use commercial drives on my survey ships. They're intended to be deployed for extreme duration anyway, and so commercial makes fuel consumption extremely small. Yes, they're slow, but they can run for *years*. Also, these are jump drive equipped.
SC Karen Jean Meech class Survey Craft 9,000 tons 116 Crew 584.3 BP TCS 180 TH 500 EM 0
2777 km/s JR 1-25(C) Armour 1-38 Shields 0-0 HTK 35 Sensors 6/0/1/1 DCR 6 PPV 0
Maint Life 4.08 Years MSP 743 AFR 108% IFR 1.5% 1YR 71 5YR 1,069 Max Repair 100 MSP
Commander Control Rating 2 BRG SCI
Intended Deployment Time: 42 months Morale Check Required
JC9K Commercial Jump Drive Max Ship Size 9000 tons Distance 25k km Squadron Size 1
Commercial Ion Drive EP500.00 (1) Power 500 Fuel Use 1.92% Signature 500 Explosion 4%
Fuel Capacity 304,000 Litres Range 316.6 billion km (1319 days at full power)
Thermal Sensor TH1.0-6.0 (1) Sensitivity 6 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 19.4m km
Geological Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
Gravitational Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
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well, what do you consider an excellent design, XS? the second engine is a lot of expense for little-to-no gain, but IMO that one change is ~75% of fully optimizing the design.
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I usually use an engine with 55% efficiency so i can use a smaller military JD to try and compact my design as much as possible
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I usually use an engine with 55% efficiency so i can use a smaller military JD to try and compact my design as much as possible
The advantage of the commercial jump drives is that they are dirt cheap. Usually for a survey ship the cost will be 10 BP which is the absolute minimum for a jump drive, usually this is very much worth the extra tonnage from the only 75% efficiency of the commercial jump drive.
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I like the "cram it full of engines to make it fast" take, but I doubt I'd use it myself.
I'd prefer to start with a more future proof design with lower engine tech.
Ion tech is 16k RP (reactor + engine). Jump point theory, Grav sensors, and the initial trio of jump drive techs costs 12k.
Unless I'm doing a Conventional start in which case I start with nothing.
I usually use an engine with 55% efficiency so i can use a smaller military JD to try and compact my design as much as possible
The advantage of the commercial jump drives is that they are dirt cheap. Usually for a survey ship the cost will be 10 BP which is the absolute minimum for a jump drive, usually this is very much worth the extra tonnage from the only 75% efficiency of the commercial jump drive.
The jump drive efficiency sets a hard limit on how much of your ship can be dedicated to engine, and commercial jump drives are less efficient. The way I see it, low engine power modifier compounds with low efficiency jump drive to make very low speed.
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I usually use an engine with 55% efficiency so i can use a smaller military JD to try and compact my design as much as possible
The advantage of the commercial jump drives is that they are dirt cheap. Usually for a survey ship the cost will be 10 BP which is the absolute minimum for a jump drive, usually this is very much worth the extra tonnage from the only 75% efficiency of the commercial jump drive.
the way i see it, if my economy is in such dire straits that i need to worry amount the cost difference between a C-JD to support an 12-14k Commercial Exploration ship Vs a M-DJ to support a Sub-10k Military Exploration ship, i've got bigger problems, and would probably just start a new campaign.
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I personally like to play around with my survey ships.
Heres day 1 ship from my last longer game:
Seeker class Geological Survey Vessel 2 000 tons 47 Crew 243.7 BP TCS 40 TH 41 EM 0
1020 km/s JR 1-50 Armour 1-14 Shields 0-0 HTK 14 Sensors 0/0/0/1 DCR 1 PPV 1.99
Maint Life 8.11 Years MSP 201 AFR 32% IFR 0.4% 1YR 5 5YR 82 Max Repair 100 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 50 tons Magazine 33
Trierarch Control Rating 1 BRG
Intended Deployment Time: 60 months Flight Crew Berths 1 Morale Check Required
J2000(1-50) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 2000 tons Distance 50k km Squadron Size 1
Nuclear Pulse Engine EP40.80 (1) Power 40.8 Fuel Use 21.17% Signature 40.8 Explosion 6%
Fuel Capacity 254 000 Litres Range 108 billion km (1225 days at full power)
Asteroid Defense System (1x4) Range 10 000km TS: 2000 km/s Power 0-0 RM 10 000 km ROF 5
Beam Fire Control R32-TS2000 (SW) (1) Max Range: 32 000 km TS: 2 000 km/s 34 19 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Size 3.0 Missile Launcher (30.0% Reduction) (1) Missile Size: 3 Rate of Fire 5200
Remote Control Probe (AT) (7) Speed: 2 133 km/s End: 109d Range: 20 091.4m km WH: 0 Size: 3 TH: 7/4/2
Security Buoy (4) Speed: 0 km/s End: 0m Range: 0m km WH: 0 Size: 3 TH: 0/0/0
Active Search Sensor AS7-R100 (1) GPS 120 Range 7m km Resolution 100
Thermal Sensor TH0.1-0.5 (1) Sensitivity 0.5 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 5.6m km
EM Sensor EM0.1-0.6 (1) Sensitivity 0.6 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 6.1m km
Geological Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
Strike Group
1x Explorer Scout Fighter Speed: 2019 km/s Size: 0.99
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Survey Ship for auto-assignment purposes
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I always use commercial drives on my survey ships. They're intended to be deployed for extreme duration anyway, and so commercial makes fuel consumption extremely small. Yes, they're slow, but they can run for *years*.
Because any ship with a survey sensor is a military ship, you must pay for ship maintenance.
The average annual MSP cost for overhauling a ship that is always either deployed or in overhaul is 20% of the ship's BP (four years at 0 MSP/YR plus 1 year at MSP/YR = BP).
Therefore using large commercial drives ends up costing more in the long run than cheaper, smaller military drives that achieve the same ship speed.
Of course, a large commercial drive uses a LOT less fuel than the smaller military drive that achieves the same ship speed.
But I find that my survey fleet is rather a small fraction of my total fuel usage (at least, after I've colonized a few systems).
I usually use an engine with 55% efficiency so i can use a smaller military JD to try and compact my design as much as possible
You could just make your engine smaller. Anything under 25HS is a military engine.
Use multiples if you like, but this way you can keep your power rating down to conserve fuel, and still enjoy the benefit of the compact military JD.
In fact, I go really small for surveyors.
At Improved Nuclear Thermal tech, I make 500t surveyors.
Each has a 110t engine @65% power.
They travel 916km/s.
Slow, sure, but they spend more time surveying than moving. (I play with Survey Speed at 10%.)
For transiting between systems, I research a 1kt mil JD and slap it on a tiny station (298t, with a 5-ton active sensor and 12.5t of eng spaces included).
I drag the stations into place with a 1kt tug that uses two of the same 110t@65% engines. (I could research a separate (more optimal) engine for this ship if I really wanted to).
It travels 915km/s (705 while tugging the jump station).
Slow, but who cares? The surveyors don't need the gate in place until they are done in the current system anyway.
It can tug a jump station 13.36Bkm and still have enough fuel for the return trip.
Since I can build the jump station with fighter factories (3 ffacts can make one jump station in just over 6 months), my tugs usually don't have to travel very far between trips. (I tend to have forward operating colonies one system behind the survey fleet.)
And since a mil JD is a commercial component, those jump stations don't need any maintenance.
Drop 'em off and forget about 'em.
The tug needs maintenance, but it has plenty of time for overhauling between runs.
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Because any ship with a survey sensor is a military ship, you must pay for ship maintenance.
The average annual MSP cost for overhauling a ship that is always either deployed or in overhaul is 20% of the ship's BP (four years at 0 MSP/YR plus 1 year at MSP/YR = BP).
Therefore using large commercial drives ends up costing more in the long run than cheaper, smaller military drives that achieve the same ship speed.
Commercial jump drives cost 10% the cost of a military jump drive of the same size, which since commercial jump drives are only 75% as efficient means the cost will be some 15-20% once you account for the increased ship size. Even if, for the sake of argument, your commercial ship is about double the size (comparing 50% boost commercial engines to 100% boost military engines), the jump drive of the commercial-engine ship is still only ~50-70% the cost of the military jump drive (accounting for Size^1.8 cost scaling). Probably once you account for extra armor size the cost will be pretty close to equal or modestly in favor of the commercial-engine ship, which also saves on fuel. If we compare a 55% boost military-engine ship instead, then the commercial-engine ship will be even cheaper by comparison since the size difference is less.
In fact, I go really small for surveyors.
At Improved Nuclear Thermal tech, I make 500t surveyors.
Each has a 110t engine @65% power.
They travel 916km/s.
Slow, sure, but they spend more time surveying than moving. (I play with Survey Speed at 10%.)
Even with survey speed at default, speed isn't a terribly important factor for gravsurveys, it actually matters more for geosurveys since asteroids and comets have such small requirements to survey. In practice, I also find that my survey fleets tend to outpace my colonization ability pretty easily, so I'm not terribly worried about finishing surveys quickly, rather cheaply and with minimal micro-management.
For me, this means I always use a size-25 engine for surveyors, and don't worry about trying to match some equivalent speed from a military engine ship after that.
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Because any ship with a survey sensor is a military ship, you must pay for ship maintenance.
The average annual MSP cost for overhauling a ship that is always either deployed or in overhaul is 20% of the ship's BP (four years at 0 MSP/YR plus 1 year at MSP/YR = BP).
Therefore using large commercial drives ends up costing more in the long run than cheaper, smaller military drives that achieve the same ship speed.
Of course, a large commercial drive uses a LOT less fuel than the smaller military drive that achieves the same ship speed.
But I find that my survey fleet is rather a small fraction of my total fuel usage (at least, after I've colonized a few systems).
This doesn't work out the way you are thinking. As a test, I prototyped a couple military ion engines with the similar power as my commercial.
Military drive (40 HS 100% power -- No jump drive):
Agamemnon class Survey Craft (P) 8,823 tons 125 Crew 770 BP TCS 176 TH 500 EM 0
2833 km/s Armour 1-38 Shields 0-0 HTK 29 Sensors 0/0/1/1 DCR 10 PPV 0
Maint Life 4.19 Years MSP 545 AFR 62% IFR 0.9% 1YR 50 5YR 745 Max Repair 250.00 MSP
Commander Control Rating 2 BRG SCI
Intended Deployment Time: 42 months Morale Check Required
Ion Drive EP500.00 (1) Power 500.0 Fuel Use 30.00% Signature 500.00 Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 5,000,000 Litres Range 340 billion km (1388 days at full power)
Gravitational Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
Geological Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
Military drive (73 HS 55% power -- shorter range -- could be *at best* equal BP and range if engine size is reduced to match similar speed):
Agamemnon class Survey Craft (P) 7,178 tons 163 Crew 721.5 BP TCS 144 TH 502 EM 0
3496 km/s JR 3-50 Armour 1-33 Shields 0-0 HTK 37 Sensors 0/0/1/1 DCR 8 PPV 0
Maint Life 4.07 Years MSP 502 AFR 52% IFR 0.7% 1YR 48 5YR 727 Max Repair 138.0170 MSP
Commander Control Rating 2 BRG SCI
Intended Deployment Time: 42 months Morale Check Required
J7200(3-50) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 7200 tons Distance 50k km Squadron Size 3
Ion Drive EP501.88 (1) Power 501.9 Fuel Use 4.98% Signature 501.88 Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 500,000 Litres Range 251.7 billion km (833 days at full power)
Gravitational Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
Geological Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
Commercial drive (100 HS 40% power):
SC Karen Jean Meech class Survey Craft 9,000 tons 116 Crew 584.3 BP TCS 180 TH 500 EM 0
2777 km/s JR 1-25(C) Armour 1-38 Shields 0-0 HTK 35 Sensors 6/0/1/1 DCR 6 PPV 0
Maint Life 4.08 Years MSP 743 AFR 108% IFR 1.5% 1YR 71 5YR 1,069 Max Repair 100 MSP
Commander Control Rating 2 BRG SCI
Intended Deployment Time: 42 months Morale Check Required
JC9K Commercial Jump Drive Max Ship Size 9000 tons Distance 25k km Squadron Size 1
Commercial Ion Drive EP500.00 (1) Power 500 Fuel Use 1.92% Signature 500 Explosion 4%
Fuel Capacity 304,000 Litres Range 316.6 billion km (1319 days at full power)
Thermal Sensor TH1.0-6.0 (1) Sensitivity 6 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 19.4m km
Geological Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
Gravitational Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
As you can see, the commercial drive based ship is a smaller quantity of BP for each of the potential engines. Commercial drives are simply cheaper over all.
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Because any ship with a survey sensor is a military ship, you must pay for ship maintenance.
The average annual MSP cost for overhauling a ship that is always either deployed or in overhaul is 20% of the ship's BP (four years at 0 MSP/YR plus 1 year at MSP/YR = BP).
Therefore using large commercial drives ends up costing more in the long run than cheaper, smaller military drives that achieve the same ship speed.
Of course, a large commercial drive uses a LOT less fuel than the smaller military drive that achieves the same ship speed.
But I find that my survey fleet is rather a small fraction of my total fuel usage (at least, after I've colonized a few systems).
This doesn't work out the way you are thinking. As a test, I prototyped a couple military ion engines with the similar power as my commercial.
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As you can see, the commercial drive based ship is a smaller quantity of BP for each of the potential engines. Commercial drives are simply cheaper over all.
There are a few reasons for the difference between our observations.
First, your starting ship (with the large commercial drive) has an engine mass fraction of 61%.
By comparison, mine has an engine mass fraction of 75%.
(Your is a very deluxe design compared to mine. Dual sensors, 42 month deployment (vs 24), and of course the on-board jump drive.)
Because my ship is significantly more engine by mass, I can reduce the engine size far more significantly for any given power increase.
If I double my engine power rating, I can reduce my engine mass by ~77%, add fuel to keep the same range, and end up with the same ship speed.
In other words, it's easier to save money by cutting engine size on my starting ship than it is on yours.
Second, you increase engine power from 40% to 100%, whereas I go from 40% to 80%.
That difference in engine power has two consequences that are working against you:
1) The loss in fuel efficiency for you is so bad that you have to add an incredible amount of mass in fuel, which means you need a much bigger engine to keep the same speed.
It seems like your ship with the 100% engines is more than half fuel by mass.
(In fact: to minimize the total size of engine plus fuel while keeping speed, range, and ship size constant, use an engine:fuel mass ratio of 3:1.)
2) The marginal cost of engine power increases as power increases. The cost increase from 80% to 100% is 4/5 of the cost increase from 40% to 80%. So you are paying 80% more to get 25% more power.
Another minor thing: You aren't keeping your eng spaces per kt constant.
Your commercial engine ship has an AFR%/kt of 12.
The value for your first military ship is ~7.03.
Your second military ship is 7.24.
So you are paying more per kt for eng spaces on the mil ships.
One final, minor thing: I managed to reduce my surveyor size below 1kt, which meant I also got to take off the bridge, saving me another 50kt and 20BP.
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There are a few reasons for the difference between our observations.
First, your starting ship (with the large commercial drive) has an engine mass fraction of 61%.
By comparison, mine has an engine mass fraction of 75%.
(Your is a very deluxe design compared to mine. Dual sensors, 42 month deployment (vs 24), and of course the on-board jump drive.)
Because my ship is significantly more engine by mass, I can reduce the engine size far more significantly for any given power increase.
If I double my engine power rating, I can reduce my engine mass by ~77%, add fuel to keep the same range, and end up with the same ship speed.
In other words, it's easier to save money by cutting engine size on my starting ship than it is on yours.
Second, you increase engine power from 40% to 100%, whereas I go from 40% to 80%.
That difference in engine power has two consequences that are working against you:
1) The loss in fuel efficiency for you is so bad that you have to add an incredible amount of mass in fuel, which means you need a much bigger engine to keep the same speed.
It seems like your ship with the 100% engines is more than half fuel by mass.
(In fact: to minimize the total size of engine plus fuel while keeping speed, range, and ship size constant, use an engine:fuel mass ratio of 3:1.)
2) The marginal cost of engine power increases as power increases. The cost increase from 80% to 100% is 4/5 of the cost increase from 40% to 80%. So you are paying 80% more to get 25% more power.
Another minor thing: You aren't keeping your eng spaces per kt constant.
Your commercial engine ship has an AFR%/kt of 12.
The value for your first military ship is ~7.03.
Your second military ship is 7.24.
So you are paying more per kt for eng spaces on the mil ships.
One final, minor thing: I managed to reduce my surveyor size below 1kt, which meant I also got to take off the bridge, saving me another 50kt and 20BP.
Interesting points. The AFR is not the stat I was paying attention to. Estimated maintenance life is. If the ship can't make 4 years, then its 42 month deployment isn't going to happen. That being said, I think I see where you are coming from. I made this weird ship...
Africa class Survey Craft (P) 996 tons 20 Crew 140.9 BP TCS 20 TH 50 EM 0
2511 km/s Armour 1-8 Shields 0-0 HTK 7 Sensors 0/0/0/1 DCR 0 PPV 0
Maint Life 4.60 Years MSP 53 AFR 13% IFR 0.2% 1YR 4 5YR 61 Max Repair 100 MSP
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months Morale Check Required
Ion Drive EP50.00 (1) Power 50.0 Fuel Use 6.07% Signature 50.00 Explosion 4%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres Range 297.8 billion km (1372 days at full power)
Geological Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per HourBTW, that's a 40% power 10 HS engine, which is about 50% of the size of the ship.
It's a little slower, slightly shorter range, and only has half the deployment time. However, I see one major flaw in the design. It has 53 MSP, but a max repair of 100. If that 100 component goes out, it has to RTB to fix it. Still, it only has a 13% chance of failure on a given year, and only a 2 year deployment. That 100 MSP component is the main sensor. Everything else it could repair no less than 5 times.
This ship uses a lot more fuel than mine, by far! But I do see the size benefit of such a tiny ship. That said, there is the issue that I usually end up in a fuel crunch in my first war.
It occurs to me that you have said a lot about what you don't like about other people's designs, but you have not posted one yourself. Perhaps you should post your tiny survey craft?
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It occurs to me that you have said a lot about what you don't like about other people's designs, but you have not posted one yourself. Perhaps you should post your tiny survey craft?
I'm not pointing out what I don't like in other designs. I'm discussing some of the interesting design tradeoffs that players often overlook.
Here's a surveyor in my current game:
QuarkMiniD class Gravsurvey Ship 500 tons 13 Crew 125.8 BP TCS 10 TH 9 EM 0
916 km/s Armour 1-5 Shields 0-0 HTK 2 Sensors 0/0/1/0 DCR 0 PPV 0
Maint Life 8.16 Years MSP 104 AFR 8% IFR 0.1% 1YR 3 5YR 42 Max Repair 100 MSP
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months Morale Check Required
M-INT 110t@65% EP9.15 0.73LEPH (1) Power 9.2 Fuel Use 72.62% Signature 9.15 Explosion 6%
Fuel Capacity 40,000 Litres Range 19.9 billion km (250 days at full power)
Active Search Sensor AS1-R1 (1) GPS 1 Range 1.3m km MCR 113.5k km Resolution 1
Gravitational Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a Survey Ship for auto-assignment purposes
Engine tech is Internal Nuclear Thermal.
Same design with Ion engines would be just under twice the speed.
With lighter armor it gets either faster (because lighter ship) or has more range (because more room for fuel tanks).
By size, this design is 22% engine and 8% fuel.
Very close to the optimal 3:1 ratio, even though I wasn't paying attention to that ratio during the design process.
The relatively short range is not a problem for my empire. I park cheap tankers at JPs. Fleets use those to refuel when needed.
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Sorry, that came out more snarky than I intended. I appreciate the dialog.
I worked out the maintenance supply issue, but the range is far too short for my taste. This is about half the range of my commercial drive ship:
Africa class Survey Craft (P) 1,000 tons 25 Crew 149.7 BP TCS 20 TH 50 EM 0
2500 km/s Armour 1-8 Shields 0-0 HTK 6 Sensors 0/0/0/1 DCR 1 PPV 0
Maint Life 11.33 Years MSP 121 AFR 6% IFR 0.1% 1YR 2 5YR 26 Max Repair 100 MSP
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months Morale Check Required
Ion Drive EP50.00 (1) Power 50.0 Fuel Use 6.07% Signature 50.00 Explosion 4%
Fuel Capacity 54,000 Litres Range 160.1 billion km (741 days at full power)
Geological Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per HourAs it stands, my Meech class survey craft weren't even long enough range to survey one system. I could only hit about 4% of the system until I designed a ship with literally trillions of km in range. With your tanker scenario, I would have to have one of these followed by a tanker to reach a lot of planets.
EDIT:
I realized I should post that insane range ship:
SC Virginia Trimble class Survey Craft 8,330 tons 158 Crew 758.3 BP TCS 167 TH 250 EM 0
1500 km/s Armour 1-36 Shields 0-0 HTK 59 Sensors 6/0/1/1 DCR 20 PPV 0
Maint Life 21.46 Years MSP 1,637 AFR 28% IFR 0.4% 1YR 7 5YR 102 Max Repair 100 MSP
Commander Control Rating 2 BRG SCI
Intended Deployment Time: 240 months Morale Check Required
Commercial Ion Drive EP250.00 (1) Power 250 Fuel Use 0.34% Signature 250 Explosion 2%
Fuel Capacity 366,000 Litres Range 2,329.2 billion km (17972 days at full power)
Thermal Sensor TH1.0-6.0 (1) Sensitivity 6 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 19.4m km
Geological Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
Gravitational Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour100 HS, 20% engine power, no jump drive. It's almost the same size and fuel capacity as my Meech class, but 4+ times the range. Because it is so slow, I made it last 20 years, so that it can *finish* that annoying system...
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Interesting points. The AFR is not the stat I was paying attention to. Estimated maintenance life is. If the ship can't make 4 years, then its 42 month deployment isn't going to happen. That being said, I think I see where you are coming from. I made this weird ship...
Africa class Survey Craft (P) 996 tons 20 Crew 140.9 BP TCS 20 TH 50 EM 0
2511 km/s Armour 1-8 Shields 0-0 HTK 7 Sensors 0/0/0/1 DCR 0 PPV 0
Maint Life 4.60 Years MSP 53 AFR 13% IFR 0.2% 1YR 4 5YR 61 Max Repair 100 MSP
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months Morale Check Required
Ion Drive EP50.00 (1) Power 50.0 Fuel Use 6.07% Signature 50.00 Explosion 4%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres Range 297.8 billion km (1372 days at full power)
Geological Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per HourBTW, that's a 40% power 10 HS engine, which is about 50% of the size of the ship.
It's a little slower, slightly shorter range, and only has half the deployment time. However, I see one major flaw in the design. It has 53 MSP, but a max repair of 100. If that 100 component goes out, it has to RTB to fix it. Still, it only has a 13% chance of failure on a given year, and only a 2 year deployment. That 100 MSP component is the main sensor. Everything else it could repair no less than 5 times.
This ship uses a lot more fuel than mine, by far! But I do see the size benefit of such a tiny ship. That said, there is the issue that I usually end up in a fuel crunch in my first war.
It occurs to me that you have said a lot about what you don't like about other people's designs, but you have not posted one yourself. Perhaps you should post your tiny survey craft?
Just for chuckles, copy this ship, and replace the engine with a much smaller 80% engine.
How much smaller? Let's see:
(40% power * 10HS engine) / (10HS payload + 10HS engine) = (80% power * XHS engine) / (10HS payload + XHS engine)
4/20 = .8X/(10+x)
2 + .2X = .8X
2/.6 = X
x = 3.33
So, an 80%, 3.33HS engine would give you the same ship speed if you don't change anything else on the ship, but your range will be a lot worse.
Then again, the range you have on the ship above is...rather enormous.
Some back of napkin math (297.8 * (0.1 / 0.57) * (20 / 13.33)) tells me that you'll still have a range of 78.3Bkm with that same amount of fuel.
Try it?
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As it stands, my Meech class survey craft weren't even long enough range to survey one system. I could only hit about 4% of the system until I designed a ship with literally trillions of km in range.
I am so confused.
Your Meech class has 316.6 Bkm range.
That's enough range to run a dozen laps around the outer ring of survey locations on most systems.
What am I missing?
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Geological survey.
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Geological survey.
Was there a very distant binary star?
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Nah, just extremely distant planets and a huge asteroid field at about 3 billion km. The furthest planet is over 300 billion from the star. I needed all that range to keep working on the asteroids without massive amounts of time wasted returning to base for overhaul/fuel.
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Just for chuckles, copy this ship, and replace the engine with a much smaller 80% engine.
How much smaller? Let's see:
(40% power * 10HS engine) / (10HS payload + 10HS engine) = (80% power * XHS engine) / (10HS payload + XHS engine)
4/20 = .8X/(10+x)
2 + .2X = .8X
2/.6 = X
x = 3.33
So, an 80%, 3.33HS engine would give you the same ship speed if you don't change anything else on the ship, but your range will be a lot worse.
Then again, the range you have on the ship above is...rather enormous.
Some back of napkin math (297.8 * (0.1 / 0.57) * (20 / 13.33)) tells me that you'll still have a range of 78.3Bkm with that same amount of fuel.
Try it?
Since I can't do 3.33, I did 3.3 HS. End result is weird. Vastly shorter range, but also not much gain in speed?
Africa - Copy class Survey Craft (P) 646 tons 24 Crew 149.7 BP TCS 13 TH 33 EM 0
2555 km/s Armour 1-6 Shields 0-0 HTK 4 Sensors 0/0/0/1 DCR 1 PPV 0
Maint Life 19.76 Years MSP 188 AFR 3% IFR 0.0% 1YR 1 5YR 14 Max Repair 100 MSP
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months Morale Check Required
Ion Drive EP33.00 (1) Power 33.0 Fuel Use 59.79% Signature 33.00 Explosion 8%
Fuel Capacity 54,000 Litres Range 25.2 billion km (114 days at full power)
Geological Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
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Nah, just extremely distant planets and a huge asteroid field at about 3 billion km. The furthest planet is over 300 billion from the star. I needed all that range to keep working on the asteroids without massive amounts of time wasted returning to base for overhaul/fuel.
Fair enough. That's a special case. Sounds like that system had a very heavy star. Those are rather rare.
When I've encountered those, I just build a few tankers to send along with one of the surveyors. The tankers peel off as they empty.
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Just for chuckles, copy this ship, and replace the engine with a much smaller 80% engine.
How much smaller? Let's see:
(40% power * 10HS engine) / (10HS payload + 10HS engine) = (80% power * XHS engine) / (10HS payload + XHS engine)
4/20 = .8X/(10+x)
2 + .2X = .8X
2/.6 = X
x = 3.33
So, an 80%, 3.33HS engine would give you the same ship speed if you don't change anything else on the ship, but your range will be a lot worse.
Then again, the range you have on the ship above is...rather enormous.
Some back of napkin math (297.8 * (0.1 / 0.57) * (20 / 13.33)) tells me that you'll still have a range of 78.3Bkm with that same amount of fuel.
Try it?
Since I can't do 3.33, I did 3.3 HS. End result is weird. Vastly shorter range, but also not much gain in speed?
Africa - Copy class Survey Craft (P) 646 tons 24 Crew 149.7 BP TCS 13 TH 33 EM 0
2555 km/s Armour 1-6 Shields 0-0 HTK 4 Sensors 0/0/0/1 DCR 1 PPV 0
Maint Life 19.76 Years MSP 188 AFR 3% IFR 0.0% 1YR 1 5YR 14 Max Repair 100 MSP
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months Morale Check Required
Ion Drive EP33.00 (1) Power 33.0 Fuel Use 59.79% Signature 33.00 Explosion 8%
Fuel Capacity 54,000 Litres Range 25.2 billion km (114 days at full power)
Geological Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
Not trying to gain speed. Trying to save cost and reduce size at the same time. Speed should stay (roughly) the same.
Now cut the eng spaces by half, and add maintenance supply spaces if needed to get back up to 100+ MSP.
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Tweaked it a bunch to try to get it under 500. Probably requires a smaller engine.
Africa - Copy class Survey Craft (P) 584 tons 17 Crew 136.8 BP TCS 12 TH 33 EM 0
2825 km/s Armour 1-6 Shields 0-0 HTK 3 Sensors 0/0/1/0 DCR 0 PPV 0
Maint Life 10.12 Years MSP 123 AFR 5% IFR 0.1% 1YR 2 5YR 33 Max Repair 100 MSP
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months Morale Check Required
Ion Drive EP33.00 (1) Power 33.0 Fuel Use 59.79% Signature 33.00 Explosion 8%
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres Range 25.8 billion km (105 days at full power)
Gravitational Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per HourAlso, realized this is a grav surveyor, not a geo surveyor. Not enough range for a geo.
EDIT:
Now *this* is a geo survey version. It's way slower, but 10 years deployment and similar range to my Meech class....
Africa - Copy class Survey Craft (P) 500 tons 13 Crew 131.7 BP TCS 10 TH 5 EM 0
500 km/s Armour 1-5 Shields 0-0 HTK 3 Sensors 0/0/0/1 DCR 0 PPV 0
Maint Life 10.37 Years MSP 191 AFR 8% IFR 0.1% 1YR 3 5YR 48 Max Repair 100 MSP
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 120 months Morale Check Required
Ion Drive EP5.00 (1) Power 5.0 Fuel Use 2.40% Signature 5.00 Explosion 2%
Fuel Capacity 22,000 Litres Range 330 billion km (7638 days at full power)
Geological Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
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Tweaked it a bunch to try to get it under 500. Probably requires a smaller engine.
Africa - Copy class Survey Craft (P) 584 tons 17 Crew 136.8 BP TCS 12 TH 33 EM 0
2825 km/s Armour 1-6 Shields 0-0 HTK 3 Sensors 0/0/1/0 DCR 0 PPV 0
Maint Life 10.12 Years MSP 123 AFR 5% IFR 0.1% 1YR 2 5YR 33 Max Repair 100 MSP
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months Morale Check Required
Ion Drive EP33.00 (1) Power 33.0 Fuel Use 59.79% Signature 33.00 Explosion 8%
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres Range 25.8 billion km (105 days at full power)
Gravitational Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per HourAlso, realized this is a grav surveyor, not a geo surveyor. Not enough range for a geo.
Now we're getting somewhere.
This one is a lot smaller and a little bit cheaper than the 996kt version above.
The price, of course, is fuel consumption.
To follow this doctrine of smaller, more powerful engines, you have to invest a bit more in fuel production and distribution.
Fortunately, sorium harvesters and tanker ships are pretty cheap.
It's fun for me, but it's not the right play style for everyone.
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So, my final(?) design is this:
Acacia class Gravitational Survey Vessel (P) 500 tons 12 Crew 123.6 BP TCS 10 TH 18 EM 0
1753 km/s Armour 1-5 Shields 0-0 HTK 3 Sensors 0/0/1/0 DCR 0 PPV 0
Maint Life 5.27 Years MSP 115 AFR 20% IFR 0.3% 1YR 7 5YR 104 Max Repair 100 MSP
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Morale Check Required
Ion Drive EP17.50 (1) Power 17.5 Fuel Use 55.00% Signature 17.50 Explosion 7%
Fuel Capacity 69,000 Litres Range 45.2 billion km (298 days at full power)
Gravitational Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a Survey Ship for auto-assignment purposesYou'll notice that I've adjusted it to a 12 month deployment, and that it is a bit slower with a much higher AFR. This is because I am creating a carrier for it and a similarly designed geo survey "fighter". The carrier will ideally be an entirely commercial ship. It'll launch these survey... uhh... shuttles? on arrival in the system. It'll carry enough fuel and MSP for them to remain in supply for years at a time. It can even get to the outer reaches of a system and then launch the geo survey shuttles, thus solving my problem of the huge systems.
My only question is, do I need a commercial damage control, and does that rewind deployment time?
Agamemnon class Scout Carrier 12,297 tons 166 Crew 723.5 BP TCS 246 TH 500 EM 0
2033 km/s Armour 1-47 Shields 0-0 HTK 39 Sensors 6/0/0/0 DCR 14 PPV 0
MSP 5,514 Max Repair 100 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 2,000 tons
Captain Control Rating 3 BRG AUX ENG
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months Flight Crew Berths 40
Commercial Ion Drive EP500.00 (1) Power 500 Fuel Use 1.92% Signature 500 Explosion 4%
Fuel Capacity 2,000,000 Litres Range 1,524.8 billion km (8680 days at full power)
Thermal Sensor TH1.0-6.0 (1) Sensitivity 6 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 19.4m km
Strike Group
1x Acacia Gravitational Survey Vessel Speed: 1753 km/s Size: 9.98
3x Chestnut Geological Survey Vessel Speed: 1753 km/s Size: 9.98
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a b for auto-assignment purposes
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You'll notice that I've adjusted it to a 12 month deployment, and that it is a bit slower with a much higher AFR. This is because I am creating a carrier for it and a similarly designed geo survey "fighter". The carrier will ideally be an entirely commercial ship. It'll launch these survey... uhh... shuttles? on arrival in the system. It'll carry enough fuel and MSP for them to remain in supply for years at a time. It can even get to the outer reaches of a system and then launch the geo survey shuttles, thus solving my problem of the huge systems.
My only question is, do I need a commercial damage control, and does that rewind deployment time?
The Commercial Hangar Deck is a commercial component, but it does not stop the maintenance clock of docked ships.
The other Hangar Deck and the smaller Boat Bays are military components. They stop the maintenance clock of docked ships, but you will have to consider the maintenance of the carrier itself.
Hangars are beneficial mainly for long distance transport of small, short-range, fuel-thirsty ships.
They do not usually provide a significant reduction in maintenance costs.
Keep in mind also that the AFR displayed for a ship design applies to the first year of service, and then increases each subsequent year.
The AFR for the Nth year of service is just the base AFR * N.
This is why the 5YR MSP usage estimate shown in the design text is 15 times the 1YR estimate (1+2+3+4+5=15).
I design my surveyors for 2 year deployments, because the 3rd year costs as much MSP as the first two years combined, and then it gets more expensive from there.
For a thorough discussion of additional nuances of the maintenance rules, check out this legendary post by Alsadius (http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=11055.0).
And no, you don't want a damage control component. Those only reduce the time needed to repair components damaged in battle. They do not apply to components that suffer maintenance failures.
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I go with 800 ton Grav survey boats. Effectiveness of a survey ship is a balance of its speed, endurance and the cost of the payload. Since the cost of the survey sensor is fixed, the rest of the boat isn't going to add that much to the cost of the ship until you have much better engine tech.
If I am feeling extravagant, I push the size up a little bit, and give them a 1 HS sensor system. I have a survey support carrier, not to transport them long distance, but to repair anything out in the field, and to house the scouts and jump point probe pinnaces. I also drop monitor satellites on both sides of all jump points. Not really great sensors, just enough to detect anything close enough to transit. Most of the warning is from the enemy blowing them up.
Part of efficiency in survey operations is that if a system doesn't need to go all over the system, it shouldn't. So the jump tender should always be a commercial ship that helps the survey fleet transit. It doesn't even need to stick around at the entrance, although you could have an RP that it doesn't leave while there are ships in the system.
I am a big believer that solo survey ships are a horrible idea. You always wants something else in the system out of range of the enemy who can report the destruction of your survey ship, because that is information that you HAVE to know as fast as possible.
And a survey fleet simply has no chance of fighting off anything except an enemy scout. In the event of combat, any military systems should be aimed at simply getting more detailed information about the enemy capacity.
That can include recon missiles. Missiles with no warhead, that don't travel very fast, but have a very long range. They won't have a targeting system that can hit an enemy, but can go to a waypoint on the enemy path that would give an idea as to what the enemy will use to shoot down missiles with. Recon missiles are also useful for probing fleets that are orbiting a body.
If you want your survey fleet to be able to take out enemy survey ships and scouts, adding a beam fighter or two on the support carrier is reasonable. There is then a bit of a conflict between making a long endurance fighter for that or a high performance one. Long endurance means you can also use them as commerce raiders, going after slow and dispersed commercial ships.
The big thing you lose with a slower, long endurance fighter is the great reduction in their ability to contribute to point defense.
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With respect to having enough engineering to repair the grav sensor, I am kind of torn. There is a significant cost to having enough engineering to repair the grav sensor. And you get a rather over engineered ship which is going to have life support issues long before the engineering. RP wise, I am okay with a ship that can lose the grav sensor but repair anything else. If the sensor dies, they just come home. There is going to be 4-6 grav boats in a survey fleet in any case. A sensor failure just means the system survey takes a bit longer.
I always keep my survey boats below 1000 tons, because it is easy to retool a 1000 ton shipyard that has many building slips.
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I have many different ways to deploy survey vessels, everything from small survey boats with carriers to support them to large multi-purpose science ships that can do both.
In general I find that military drives is more efficient, especially on larger survey vessels with four to six survey modules on them. As I play with 5-10% survey speed then a single survey module might see a ship spend all its time on like a single body at times, this also makes range and speed less important in general. A range of around 100-150 billion km are generally good enough for most surveyors.
I also role-play some limitation in deployment times. I figure that more than four maybe five years on a larger ship probably is the upper limit for what most humans would like to endure under normal circumstances, you probably could find some willing to deploy longer but that seem unrealistic when you deploy these ships in the dozens or more. Smaller ships gets less deployment time, the smaller the ship and crew the less likely they are to be deployed a log time.
Those who are later multi-purpose ships get both an engineering and science compartments as well to make them even more efficient, later ships also get more range as they survey faster.
In general the cost of the survey modules tend to be so much of the total cost of the ships that using commercial engines seem wasteful as that make the ships so much bigger for no good reason. It entirely depends on the range and speeds I want with the ships. Unless research cost is an issue for engines and jump engines I usually stick with military engines.
Using small survey ships usually also means I have less experienced commanders on them as well, that is why I tend to avoid smaller survey ships in favour of larger ships. Multi-purpose ones also can do both grav survey and survey planets (and perhaps moons) and leave the rest for dedicated geological survey ships to survey asteroids and comets. I generally like to find out what planets I can colonize and/or have good mineral deposits. So in general the ships survey planets and moons first (some only survey planets) and then switch to survey gravity locations. Once a ship find a JP I usually send that ship to explore it and it automatically start surveying the planets in that system.
As I often play with 5% survey rate it is not unusually for me to have several dozens of large survey ships surveying at the same time, each deployed for about four years.