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Posted by: procyon
« on: July 28, 2012, 12:43:51 AM »

Missiles are pretty much by definition going to be cheaper than similar speed disposable ships. Even if you want to accelerate the ships before launching, just do that outside the hyper limit; since missiles are essentially infinite ranged you don't gain anything by sending disposable ships in then launching.

This is one of those things I will have to puzzle out during game play.  Missiles may be cheaper, but will have to be launched by something.  I would rather send an expendable craft to draw fire and locate future targets than risk a more expensive, dedicated missile platform.

It will also depend on how effective anti missile defenses are.  If the parasite can provide decent cover for the missiles during part of their time to target, then this could be a bonus.  With rail guns and a laser it may also be able to engage some defenses that are identified.  How successful it will be is yet to be seen.

How the game's dynamics will work will shape a lot of the tactics.  If missiles can reach enormous velocities from a slow ship, and missile defenses are poor against that target, a pure missile attack from long range may be good.

Since I don't have a clue how it will work, my first plan will be to test the waters with craft that are fairly 'expendable' and armed with a variety of weapons.  I like the missiles versatility and payload.  I like the rail guns lethality in what I assume will be a nearly invisible and difficult to stop package.  I like lasers as a nimble target will still find itself in trouble against them - and they don't run out of ammo.  So I would go with all of them and see what my opponent finds hardest to counter.

And if he does counter all of it - I'm only out a bunch of 'expendable' craft.  Granted it will be more expensive than missiles - but hopefully they will also have identified more targets and weaknesses than a single form attack.
Posted by: Bremen
« on: July 27, 2012, 08:30:40 PM »

The massed launch from the extreme limit would give the defender a great deal of time/opportunity to plot interceptions and organize a defense.  But it would make destroying the bug ships very difficult - if not impossible.  But from the fiction I have read, it seems that building big and fast missiles is expensive and time comsuming.

And if you can make 'extreme velocity missiles', they will only get faster if you ramp up the launch vehicle's speed before releasing the missile.

Missiles are pretty much by definition going to be cheaper than similar speed disposable ships. Even if you want to accelerate the ships before launching, just do that outside the hyper limit; since missiles are essentially infinite ranged you don't gain anything by sending disposable ships in then launching.
Posted by: procyon
« on: July 27, 2012, 07:25:02 PM »

That is why I commit the second half of the parasites to moving in system and directly attacking targets, while the first half try to make pick up with a follow on unit.  I also do not want the carriers on a direct course away from the inner system, but one oblique to it in the hopes of drawing defenses out/getting various locations to commit to attacks.

Getting them to commit to out system courses would be great, but just getting them to burn enough fuel to become combat ineffective would be adequate.

And just ask my kids.
They never trust what they see in a game.  I am horrible about 'bait and drag' as they call it....

 ;D
Posted by: jseah
« on: July 27, 2012, 02:46:43 PM »

An fighter or missile heavy strategy would be a good counter to this though.  Your strikes launched at long range could be intercepted by small mobile elements, AMMs and pointdef FACs, so the humans might not be drawn into a combat towards the outsystem. 
Even if they need to move ships around, intercepting the shots can be done from where they currently are. 

Especially if you only jump in with a fraction of your force, if the commander knows what he's doing, he will not commit overly to chasing light skirmishing forces with the majority of his defences.  Especially when it looks likely they will bug out before anything can reach them. 

Multiple waves won't do anything to change it.  If I decided that 20% of my forces is enough to take your skirmishers on if they hang around, when the 1st lot jump out and the 2nd lot comes in, that same 20% will be tasked to take on the new guys. 

EDIT:
It strikes me that this is a good thing I just learnt. 

Forces can be committed solely as a function of their current movement vector, not their current position. 
Do not over commit forces against inferior enemies in case he's drawing you into a trap or out of position.  Use as much as you require to win, but have reserves, especially if you are required to defend an important target. 
Posted by: procyon
« on: July 27, 2012, 12:48:18 AM »

Quote from: Bremen link
If you're just trying to destroy the planet, it would probably be best to just launch a large number of extreme velocity missiles from the hyper limit.

For the scenario, though, the goal is to destroy the enemy space combatants while doing minimal damage to the colony itself.

The massed launch from the extreme limit would give the defender a great deal of time/opportunity to plot interceptions and organize a defense.  But it would make destroying the bug ships very difficult - if not impossible.  But from the fiction I have read, it seems that building big and fast missiles is expensive and time comsuming.

And if you can make 'extreme velocity missiles', they will only get faster if you ramp up the launch vehicle's speed before releasing the missile.

The whole drive of my strategy was to deploy a large number of expendable targets at the edge of the system in an attempt to draw mobile defenses out, get stationary ones to reveal themselves so they can be destroyed, and get the defender to expend most of their ordinance trying to 'swat bugs'. 
Sorry about the pun...   ;)

After three or four waves, my goal would be to have most of the stationary defenses along several corridors destroyed, and most mobile defenders committed to outsystem courses that will be difficult to reverse.  The actual damage to the more 'valuable' (to me) assets of the system would hopefully be minimal.
The surrender broadcast would be sent in the hope that a defender would realize they were committed to a defense that would no longer be capable of intercepting a determined attack aimed at the inner system.  If the last jump was made, the goal would be to rush past any mobile defenders so that any ordinance they send at my ships will have substantial inertia carrying it away from my ships.  Hopefully the combined velocities/accelerations will make intercept impossible.
Then the goal would be to deal with the remaining stationary defenses.  The thought of accepting a surrender at this point could be considered by some players - if the enemy realized that defeat could be waiting in a nasty way.
Unfortunately if I were the bugs, once the final wave arrived, there would be no turning back.  The plan is pretty much an all or nothing set up.  If you accept the surrender, you could end up losing many of your vessels simply to inertia/lack of fuel/inability to make it back safely to the origin system.
I wouldn't throw away my weapon and leave an enemy behind.  I don't think the bugs would either.

 ;D
Posted by: jseah
« on: July 25, 2012, 05:37:39 PM »

Although I did specify that if clearing the colony was required to kill the human forces, then the Bugs consider this an acceptable loss. 

Depending on diplomatic intelligence, if the Bugs know that the humans will defend their population as top priority, then it might make a perverse kind of sense to send a wave of missiles against the planet.  Stoppable missiles that will force the humans to intercept them so their ships can be defeated in detail.  =D

Workable?  Maybe. 
Posted by: Bremen
« on: July 25, 2012, 02:42:56 PM »

If you're just trying to destroy the planet, it would probably be best to just launch a large number of extreme velocity missiles from the hyper limit.

For the scenario, though, the goal is to destroy the enemy space combatants while doing minimal damage to the colony itself.
Posted by: procyon
« on: July 24, 2012, 07:12:07 PM »

It has been fairly active here at work so I haven't had much time to formulate on strategies.
The defense scenarios look well thought out.  It may have a few weaknesses, but it may be hard to analyse without actual game time to find out.

For the attack plan, I may make a few changes.  This game is going to be based (to me at least) on something close to the principle of chess.  The winner will be the one to make the next to last mistake.  The trick will be getting the other side commit the telling miscalculation.

To this end - only parasite carriers will be employed.  All tonnage dedicated to battlecruisers/jump drives of support ships will be used to build additional parasites in origin system.

No support vessels will be jump capable.  All will remain in 'origin system'.  All are to be distributed as best as possible to intercept returning carriers to refuel/rearm them in the origin system.  All support operations are to occur in origin system.  Only combat will occur in target system.

I would jump in only a few (probably two or three) jump ships to begin with.  All parasite carriers.  Parasites will mount two 1kg railguns of smallest size, plus single laser mount of minimal size and all need to add at least four AAMs/two shrapnel and two nuclear.  Aim for the maximum possible jump distance from the primary.  Attempt to set initial heading for at least 60 degrees off axis from the primary.  Attempt for even distribution around primary.  Set course as close to possible so that one ship will be moving towards the insertion location of the ship immediately clockwise of it (although counterclockwise would be fine).
The goal here is to have each ship land and be pointed as closely as possible at the landing of the ship immediately clockwise of it.
Jump in will be at maximum possible velocity achievable with 30% of onboard fuel.  Ship will proceed on this course until inbound launch is detected, firing of weapons is detected, or 48 hours have passed.  At this point all ships will make maximum delta v burn at 90 degrees from primary to accelerate to outer system and attempting to create smallest closing speed from any incoming weapons.
Jump prep will begin immediately upon arrival in system.

After outward burn (up to 20% of fuel), half of parasites will be released.  Additional 5% of fuel will be burned to be followed by release of all remaining parasites.  Following each launch the carrier will attempt one degree course alteration preceding next launch to ensure parasite dispertion.  Parasites will be passive release to minimize sensor signature. This will result in two 'lines' of parasites trailing the carrier.

Any and all launches/firing will be recorded by carriers, as will inbound courses of any ordinance.  Carriers will maintain course until any parasite or ship detects incoming ordinance with less than one minute to TOT.  Jump for return to origin system will occur at that point.  Remaining fuel will be used to facilitate rendevous with support vessels in origin system.  New parasites will then be placed on carrier as available.

All 'first launch' parasites will begin burn of no less than 50% of available fuel toward location of any noted PDC or station launches/firings.  At completion of burn all parasites will launch two AAMs (one nuke to be followed by one shrapnel) at any stations or PDC on airless targets.  Missiles will use 5% of fuel to displace current course from target and them burn 80% toward target.  Remaining 15% will be used to ensure intercept of target/evasion of incoming ordinance.  Nuke will precede sharnel missile by no less than 100 km.  Nuke will be used to intercept any incoming missiles/ordinace.  47% of all expendable rail gun ammo will then be expended on same target following AAM launch.  Parasites will them procede to complete burn of 25% remaining fuel to attempt intercept of nearest 'rally point', which will be the location (or as close as possible) to the first follow on group's insertion point.  At this point remaining missiles will be launched on second identified stationary target.  Missiles will follow same displacement/burn as initial launch.  Attempt to coordinate TOT if possible as priority.  Following launch all but 4% of railgun ammo will be fired at second target.  Remaining railgun ammo and laser installation will be used to deal with incoming ordinance.  Remaining fuel will also be used for evasive manuevers and 'landing' with follow on carrier at 'rally point.'

48 hours after initial parasite 'line' expenditure of all ordinance, second line will begin burn using same tactics but reserving 20% of initial railgun load, with priority of fire to #1 - achieve TOT on new vector to previous target / #2 - fire mission on any stationary installation noted as firing on first line parasites or ordinance.  Second line will complete only single launch on stationary target if any mobile targets are identified.  Second line will then complete burn toward any mobile target noted so that no less than three parasites will engage the mobile target from as dirvergent of vectors / coordinates as possible.  Remaining railgun ammo/ AAMs/ and laser will be used at pilot/group leader discretion so as to best bracket mobile targets for destruction.  If no mobile targets are identified second firing using remaining AAMs and 6% of railgun ordinance will be expended according to prior priority listings.

All surviving parasites will attempt to coordinate landings with follow on carriers at predesignated 'rally points.'  Second group of carriers will arrive and follow prior tactics for launch/manuever while attempting to land any surviving parasites of initial wave as possible.  Priority of fire will continue for stationary targets with mobile targets being engaged as possible.

The second and third follow on waves will attempt to identify target installations and ensure maximum expenditure of target system munitions in attempt to intercept our vessels/ordinance.  Priority is also to draw all mobile assets towards our vessels/parasites to ensure vectors away from target population.  When mobile defenses have been committed (at judgement of commanding intelligence in target system) and are judged incapable of further manuevers to intercept any ordinance fired at target population - third wave will broadcast demands for surrender.  If refused - fourth (or fifth) wave will be launched at target population.

This wave (to include all available carriers/parasites) will be placed at closest possible jump distance from target population at max velocity acheivable with 60% of fuel.  All additional fuel other than necessary for jump will be expended toward target population with random 0.1 degree course alterations.  All parasites will launch following full burn or as soon as possible before any detected inbound ordinance intercepts.  Parasites will also complete 100% burn following same evasion protocol.  Following full burn or prior to identified intercepts by incoming ordinance parasites will launch all AAM to ensure as best as possible coordination of TOT for all carrier groups of munitions on target.  All AAMs will be nuclear warheads of no less than 1 MT if possible.  Following launch and displacement manuever of missiles rail gun and lasers will be employed to attempt to intercept/destroy any defenses of population that would be capable of missile intercept.

Carriers and parasites may be considered expendable in final attack if necessary for destruction of target population as necessary.  Any not destroyed will continue past target until jump possible and them attempt return to origin system for rendevous/resupply.

EDIT

This is just a quick first go at it and will be subject to major revision once I see what you can actually accomplish in the game....
 ;)

The goal is to get the defender to commit most of his defenses to outsystem vectors, and then jump in and create a wave of death approaching the target population at a speed minimizing target intercept opportunities/time, and that they will be unable to intercept with remaining defenses due to them being committed to vectors that will make it impossible.

It also considers most of the attacking parasites as expendable by nature.

EDIT II

On additional thought - in that the final wave's goal is just population destruction if you are able to draw the defenses out/destroy them - it could be possible to use purpose built cruisers designed simply to punch through the remaining defenses at high speeds and shower the target with a mass of AGMs/AAMs.  So long as they show up as close as possible to the target, have a high acceleration, and enough defenses to unload their weapons before they are destroyed, the missile cruisers could do the job.  They could also mount larger warhead AGMs (SGMs??) than the parasites.
Perhaps if I use strictly carriers they should also have the capability to carry a few 'planet killer' nukes for the final wave...???   8)
Posted by: jseah
« on: July 24, 2012, 05:37:23 AM »

That is, of course, the drawback of PDCs.  They don't move.  

Bugs jump in with a fleet, launch a huge salvo of missiles and railguns, and leave immediately.  You have a very short window to catch them (they need to slow to stop, then accelerate backwards) and you need to inflict damage on their fleet before they leave or they will spend missiles to your ships, which is a losing proposition for you.  
Posted by: UnLimiTeD
« on: July 24, 2012, 03:26:33 AM »

So, as a side question:
Would it be feasible to just station a few dozen railgun armed pdcs on asteroids all over the system, with just a very small defensive fleet?

And as an attacker, if there's a lot of time, how about probing jumps at low speed, maul a few harvesters or other potentially stationary targets, then leave again?
Posted by: jseah
« on: July 23, 2012, 07:47:31 PM »

Very nice!  I suspect whether your attack vs my or sublight's defense will hinge greatly on the relative missile technology levels. 
If the human missiles can dodge Bug anti-missile defences (AMM or pd) at any significant rate (which could be as low as 5% depending on magazine sizes), I can see my small ships defence in depth winning.  If bug laser pd is very good (which it might very well be!), then my missile reliant strategy will become a matter of attrition (where the bugs have an advantage in tonnage) or simply falling apart. 

Of course, this is mainly because I rely solely on missiles, and sublight has alot of them too. 

I still don't have time to think of a proper attack plan.  Maybe soon, maybe never.  Work... T_T
Posted by: Bremen
« on: July 23, 2012, 05:01:34 PM »

I intentionally left myself unspoiled on the defenders tactics till I was done, and I did note that both have tactics in place to deal with deep space support ships. I suppose a lot depends on how easy they are to find (there's a lot of room for hide and seek in deep space) which might result in an interesting two-front battle.

For the sake of anyone who tries to predict two of them crashing, if the support ships got taken out I'd say the reduction in fuel would mean the bug force would probably have to go with much smaller velocities for the rest of the battle. And of course they'd only have whatever missiles were in their magazines.
Posted by: Bremen
« on: July 23, 2012, 04:49:27 PM »

Currently everyone's going defense, so I think I'll take a stab at offense.

I may be hazy on a lot of details of Newtonian Aurora, since it's been awhile since I read the threads. Are there meson weapons in NA? If so, attacking a planet would be extremely problematic without a massive missile bombardment.

Quote
Mighty Queen, your servant has spent many cycles considering the challenge you have provided.

There are two advantages that must be countered to ensure victory over the humans. First, while defending their planet they will have easy access to resupply of fuel and ammunition. Second, their ships will not require heavy jump drives, and therefor may have better comparative acceleration and more concentrated armor than equivalent jump drive ships.

In order to neutralize both advantages, it is recommended that the jump drive ships of our armada be non-combat ships with non-jump drive tonnage devoted to supplies of fuel, missiles, and spare parts. The rest of the fleet will be a combination of carriers and missile battlecruisers, with a 2 to 1 advantage in carriers. The ships will sacrifice armor and endurance for speed, and the carriers will be designed to match accelerations with the battlecruisers when their hangars are empty. Parasite craft will be slower laser armed gunships and fast railgun armed interceptors, as well as smaller numbers of unarmed sensor craft.

Immediately upon entering the system, the jump auxiliaries will top off the fleet's fuel reserves and then begin a random evasive course outside the system's hyper limit while attempting to remain hidden. Then the fleet will proceed inwards toward the known sorium harvesters in the system, extending reconnaissance pickets on all sides but backwards and with all ships on alert, particularly from missile attack. If incoming missiles are detected by a picket, the gunships of the fleet will form a screen and use their massed lasers to shoot down any incoming missiles. The scout craft will attempt evasive maneuvers, but its primary defense is it's small size; it is hoped that the enemies will not see it. Spare scout craft are requested, and if they are frequently targeted the picket groups will be pulled back closer to the fleet.

If heavy ship elements of the human fleet are detected, they will be targeted by the missiles of the battlecruisers, and the fleet will attempt to avoid a pitched battle. During this phase of the operation, missile reloads will still be available due to the resupply ships, whereas the fighters and capital ships of the fleet are irreplaceable. If combat cannot be avoided, the interceptors will be launched and begin bombarding the enemy vessels with railgun pellets while on a high speed intercept, engaging in high acceleration evasive maneuvers to reduce the accuracy of return fire.

Upon coming into range of the sorium harvesters, they will be destroyed. While their loss is regrettable, the fleet can not afford to commit elements to defend them if they surrender. The fleet will then return to its auxiliaries for resupply.

The second stage will be a feint against the human's home world; the fleet will set an interception course for the planet, then launch a scout craft forward. Once a sensor scan of the planet has been completed, the fleet will break off at maximum acceleration and return to its auxiliaries once again. If any stationary structures are detected in orbit, the interceptors will bombard them with railgun fire from long range. Mobile units will be targeted with missile salvos.

The third stage will be a final assault on the planet itself. The fleet will stop just inside sensor range of the planet and begin a missile bombardment of any detected planetary defense centers. Any remaining orbital or mobile ships of the human fleet in orbit will be targeted by interceptors, while the laser gunships continue to provide point defense for the fleet. As this is the final assault, whatever units are necessary will be sacrificed to achieve victory.
Posted by: jseah
« on: July 16, 2012, 03:26:49 AM »

While we certainly can be more realistic, I would like to keep this limited to what might be acheived in the actual NA game.  I don't think we're about to get sensor degradation in the presence of planets.  And slingshot maneuvers only work well if your speed is around the same as orbital speed of the planet you are slingshoting around, NA delta-vees are far too high. 

I suppose we can assume the main planet does *not* have a moon and both gas giants have many moons. 
Posted by: Shininglight
« on: July 16, 2012, 12:52:41 AM »

A quick question, does the colony planet or the gas giant fuel station have any orbiting bodies? That can factor in my Idea for the system defence and attack. Also does anyone know if sitting "on the darkside" of a planet could have any effect on scanner systems or should I assume it doesn't also are gravity "slingshots" viable for gaining extra speed for interception of a target in system?

All of those would help me figure out a defence or attack layout.