Author Topic: Newtonian Aurora  (Read 145223 times)

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Offline Erik L

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #225 on: October 13, 2011, 09:13:58 PM »
I split the stealth discussion off into its own thread. Please use that one for stealth discussions.

Offline IanD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #226 on: October 14, 2011, 08:15:33 AM »
For Faraday caging... yes, there will definitely be wires. 

Will there? Do optical fibres conduct?
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Offline Elouda

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #227 on: October 14, 2011, 08:30:03 AM »
Will there? Do optical fibres conduct?

No, which is why there need to be wires, unless you want a seperate powerplant outside to power your sensors.
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #228 on: October 14, 2011, 06:16:03 PM »
I think we should reduce it to two or three kinds of handwavium and just abbreviate the rest, for example into "Metal", "Gas", "Rare Minerals" and "Fossil Fuels".

Question from the Stealth thread.
Why not simplify the resource system a bit that way, makes it easier to learn what is useful for what, and just a few materials of handwavium will be enough to justify anything they are used in.
 

Offline Rastaman

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #229 on: October 14, 2011, 06:37:29 PM »
Question from the Stealth thread.
Why not simplify the resource system a bit that way, makes it easier to learn what is useful for what, and just a few materials of handwavium will be enough to justify anything they are used in.

Excuse me? We need 168 chemical elements to build thousands of different parts on multiple levels to build thousands of products, not handwavium. I'll never understand these gameplay people. Gameplay, yawn. This is Excel-in-Space, not Wing Commander.
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Offline bean

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #230 on: October 14, 2011, 08:01:27 PM »
Excuse me? We need 168 chemical elements to build thousands of different parts on multiple levels to build thousands of products, not handwavium. I'll never understand these gameplay people. Gameplay, yawn. This is Excel-in-Space, not Wing Commander.
I absolutely love the quote, though I've done excel in space, and it was less complicated.
On the other hand, I'm also in favor of avoiding handwavium as much as possible.  Not for gameplay reasons so much as suspension of disbelief, and logical consistency.  I find it easier to accept a few pieces of handwavium that explain all the fun mechanics then it is to accept ten different types.
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Offline Din182

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #231 on: October 14, 2011, 09:58:02 PM »
I absolutely love the quote, though I've done excel in space, and it was less complicated.
On the other hand, I'm also in favor of avoiding handwavium as much as possible.  Not for gameplay reasons so much as suspension of disbelief, and logical consistency.  I find it easier to accept a few pieces of handwavium that explain all the fun mechanics then it is to accept ten different types.
You seem to be contradicting yourself. Do you want to avoid handwavium or  do you find it easier to accept?



I say that we don't need to reduce the minerals down to only generic metal. This is meant to be complicated and hard to manage.  ;)
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Offline bean

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #232 on: October 14, 2011, 10:10:04 PM »
What I meant was that I didn't want 15 different types of handwavium in the game, particularly not if 3 will do.  And honestly, we will be using existing materials for a long, long, time.  And what if those are cheap, and the handwavium is rare.  Maybe only found in traces on planets, which forces it to be mined from asteroids?  Or something like that, at the very least.  The lack of conventional materials does annoy me.
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Offline Panopticon

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #233 on: October 14, 2011, 10:19:37 PM »
I find it hard to believe that one or two new elements would allow for FTL travel, energy fields, super efficient fuels, extra strong armor, Meson Cannons and so on.

I mean, we don't have one or two elements that accomplish such a huge range of possibilities on their own now, why would a new one be able to do all that? Easier to imagine an entire class of elements with those possibilities I think.

This is all on the assumptions in the game though, I imagine IRL much of this may become possible with conventional tech. However if we accept the base setting of Aurora using these elements, than it is easier to accept a lot of them rather than a couple.
 

Offline Din182

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #234 on: October 14, 2011, 10:32:11 PM »
It would be nice if there were "normal" materials like iron, steel, aluminum, etc. and then "special" minerals like we have now for the stuff like the sensors, FTL and the power plants. Mines would be able to produce both types, but produce the normal types faster than the specials types.
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Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #235 on: October 15, 2011, 03:43:20 AM »
Let's see.
The New technology we need is: A super-hardened, at least somewhat heat-resistant material, which could be an alloy of handwavium and metal, for reuseable Railguns, ablative armor, etc.
One new material that allows for FTL sensors, probably some quantum stuff, which might mean a certain amount of stored energy, so it could double for shield systems and the like as well, if we want so. So 2 or 3 so far.
Then something to facilitate new energy phenomena/Space-time bending/opening of new dimensions... whatever.
Which could also be used shields/sensors, but is most likely required for the FTL travel.
Meson cannons are essentially particle accelerators shooting packets of a specific type of Hadron, and it is beyond me why specifically that would deal any damage, but let's not discuss that yet.

So, in short, if spread correctly, I see no problem with 3-4 Handwavium materials that I'd hope to be rare, and using abstracted base materials for the rest of the building.
 

Offline bean

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #236 on: October 15, 2011, 11:01:15 AM »
Let's see.
The New technology we need is: A super-hardened, at least somewhat heat-resistant material, which could be an alloy of handwavium and metal, for reuseable Railguns, ablative armor, etc.
One new material that allows for FTL sensors, probably some quantum stuff, which might mean a certain amount of stored energy, so it could double for shield systems and the like as well, if we want so. So 2 or 3 so far.
Then something to facilitate new energy phenomena/Space-time bending/opening of new dimensions... whatever.
Which could also be used shields/sensors, but is most likely required for the FTL travel.
Meson cannons are essentially particle accelerators shooting packets of a specific type of Hadron, and it is beyond me why specifically that would deal any damage, but let's not discuss that yet.

So, in short, if spread correctly, I see no problem with 3-4 Handwavium materials that I'd hope to be rare, and using abstracted base materials for the rest of the building.

I'm in complete agreement.  For one thing, current materials aren't going to go away.  For another, handwavium is best when applied as sparingly as possible while still getting the desired effect.
Don't get me wrong.  Steve has done a fantastic job with his handwavium, and it's about the only thing I can stomach that doesn't use newtonian movement.  However, the number of elements is a bit daunting.
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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #237 on: October 18, 2011, 02:51:58 PM »
Armour and Shields

The general principle for armour remains the same in Newtonian Aurora, although the specifics have changed. Rather than the abstract nature of armour in standard Aurora, Newtonian Aurora measures armour thickness in centimeters and calculates the amount required based on the surface area of the hull. For the purposes of armour, shields and chance of weapon impact, the hull is assumed to be spherical and each ton of displacement is 10m3. So a ship of 5918 tons would have a volume of 59,180 m3, which is a sphere of approximately 48m in diamater. The surface area is 7344 m2 so a layer of armour 1 cm thick would mass 73.44 tons (rounded to 73). If the armour thickness is increased to 3cm, the hull volume is 60,690 m3 (including the armour), surface area is 7468 m2, sphere diameter is 49m and armour tonnage is 224. All this information is shown in the armour section of the class window. Each cm of armour means 1 row of armour boxes. The width of the armour is equal to the diameter of the sphere, which is 49 in the latter case. Armour is rated in the amount of megajoules required to destroy one box. For example, High Density Duranium Armour is rated at 80 MJ per box while Ceramic Composite Armour is 125 MJ.

The total amount of armour boxes in Newtonian Aurora is now greater for the same tonnage of armour in Standard Aurora but probably less than twice as much. So a ship that used to have 3 layers of armour would now have 5-6 layers for about the same tonnage. It's not an exact conversion though as Standard Aurora uses the concept of Armour Strength to require less tonnage for the same number of boxes at higher armour levels. That concept doesn't exist in Newtonian Aurora where you will always need the same tonnage of armour for the same number of boxes. Better armour in Newtonian Aurora is more resistant to damage though. Damage is rated in Megajoules rather than an abstract damage rating so 1 box will subtract a set number of megajoules from the total damage amount, rather than 1 box stops 1 damage.

The way in which damage is applied to armour is still basically armour boxes removed due to damage but the way in which the boxes are selected will change. Assume for the purposes of these example, there are no active shields. Lasers (which are totally different than standard Aurora and I will cover the details in a later post) will affect an area of armour depending on the diameter of the beam when it hits the target. The megajoule output of the laser will be divided between the number of armour boxes covered by the beam, which means once the beam widens to a certain amount, it will only warm up a large section of the armour rather than vapourising a smaller section. For example, if the armour is rated at 100 MJ and the laser output is 1200 MJ, it could penetrate 4 layers of armour by three columns if the beam is only 3 boxes wide, or penetrate two layers by six columns if the beam is 6 boxes wide, etc. If the beam is 13 or more boxes wide, it wouldn't damage the armour because the megajoule damage per box is less than 100. The width of the beam will depend on the range between firing ship and target and on the wavelength of the beam in nanometers (more on that in the forthcoming laser post). Lasers won't be able to affect more than half the width of the armour (one whole side of the ship) so any beam width beyond that will be wasted.

Kinetic weapons such as railguns will punch a hole one box wide straight through the armour. If they penetrate through the entire armour belt, they will damage a limited number of systems depending on the size of the ship and then potentially punch their way out again, damaging armour from the inside outwards. Of course, it will be much harder to hit with a railgun due to the speed of the projectile but the potential for damage is much greater, especially if the target ship is moving at high speed.

Nuclear weapons in Newtonian Aurora are area-based and missiles may be set for proximity detonation. If a ship is close enough to be within the blast radius, any damage that penetrates the shields will be applied to half the width of the armour, which will be the side of the ship facing the explosion. To determine the damage applied per box, the total MJ output of the explosion (which for 1 megaton would be 4,184,000,000 Megajoules - ouch!), is applied across the total surface area of a sphere with a radius equal to the range from the ship to the detonation point. The total energy output for 1 square metre of that explosion at the given range (or maybe 2 m2 - haven't decided yet) will be applied to each affected armour box. This isn't quite as bad as it sounds unless you are very close to the explosion because the rate at which damage falls off for nuclear detonations in space is far higher than in atmosphere.

For example, if you are 500 meters from a 200 kiloton detonation (which is a 1 ton warhead at tech level 3), the total damage applied per armour box will be 266 MJ. At 100 meters though it is 6659 MJ per box, which wouldn't be good. And yes, this means it is possible to take out a ship with a single missile if you get close enough, so I suggest anti-missile defence should be a priority :). I thought a lot about this but decided to go with the realistic option. Lets face it - if the Nimitz took a direct hit from a 200 KT nuke, it would be in some difficulty. Don't forget though that you can also use nuclear detonations defensively and a single small nuke could take out a lot of attacking missiles with a proximity detonation. Also missiles will generally be slower than in Standard Aurora. Targeting will be different too but I will cover that in another post.

Another example. A 1 megaton nuke would cause 83 MJ per box at 2000 meters, 332 MJ at 1000 meters, 1331 MJ at 500 meters and 5327 MJ at 250 meters. At 100 meters it would be 33,295 MJ per box!! Definitely need to keep the location of any fleet bases and shipyards a very closely guarded secret! In fact, I think dispersing shipyards may be a good idea. In a way, I am designing Newtonian Aurora without a really detailed idea of how the combat is going to play out. I am trying to create realistic systems and then I will see how everything interacts and how that drives tactics. It will be fun to find out :)

Other types of warhead will include laser heads and shrapnel heads, although I haven't designed those yet.

Shield Update
Although I have already explained the basics of shields, the changes I have made to armour (see below) will slightly affect the details but not the general principles. Shield radius will now be equal to 1.25x armour radius, so shields will be much closer to the hull and will not make the ship significantly easier to hit. Shield Area is also now in square meters rather than the abstract size I used in my earlier post and the point strength is equal to total area divided by 200. In effect, I am assuming that the energy contained in 200m2 of the shields will be applied against any single kinetic strike.

Although the maximum strength that can be applied against a kinetic strike is the point strength, a laser strike with a beam diameter greater than one will affect a greater area of the shields and will require greater energy to penetrate. I'll cover this in the laser post. Against a nuclear detonation, the amount of energy that will strike the shields will be equal to the square meter damage at that range mutliplied by (armour width*0.625). This is because half the ship will be affected and the shields are 25% wider than the hull, so half the armour x 1.25, which is all the armour x 0.625.

Note: In reality, the damage to armour and shields would be greater because the ship has height as well as length. In effect I am assuming a strip of the ship 1 meter high is all that is hit by the blast. However, the game is 2D, it's complicated enough already and nuclear weapons don't really need the extra help so I am happy to live with that simplification. In addition, some parts of the ship would actually be slightly closer to the explosion than others so the damage should vary across the hull. I am not going to include that complication either.

Example of shield and armour calculation

A ship of 4884 tons has 6cm thick armour and 72 GJ shields. The hull volume is 48,840 and the spherical diameter is 45 meters. The surface area is 6461m2, which is multiplied by 0.06 for 6cm of armour, giving 388 tons of armour. The armour is 6 layers by 45 columns and is Ceramic Composite with a strength of 125 MJ per box. The radius of the shields is 25% greater than for the armour, which gives a surface area of 10,096m2. The 72 GJ total shield strength (72,000 MJ) is divided by (10096/200), to give a point strength of 1426 MJ.

Steve
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 05:04:48 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #238 on: October 18, 2011, 02:54:00 PM »
Except it's easy to dodge a bullet when you see the flash 4+ seconds before impact. 

True, assuming you can track the path of the bullet. Otherwise you might dodge into it :). Railgun rounds will likely be too small to track on sensors, at least as things stand at the moment.

Steve
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #239 on: October 18, 2011, 02:56:10 PM »
It may be a good idea to have something like "random evasive maneuvers" type of movement for fleet, that will prevent from being hit by gigantic projectiles from big distances. It's only additional type of movement that You can use when You suspect that something is shooting  ;D It could reduce acceleration by 5% and also increase fuel usage. Also, it would be easier for small ship with small mass to slightly change course every few seconds. The fuel and acceleration penalty for capital behemoths could be much bigger.

There will be some type of random evasion. I need to get into the calculations before I figure out exactly how it will work. I am already thinking that stationary bases will be a bad idea. Even a 'base' is going to need some type of maneuvering capability. Also - Hide Your Shipyards!

Steve