Aurora 4x
C# Aurora => C# Suggestions => Topic started by: xenoscepter on December 08, 2023, 12:08:29 AM
-
--- I'd think it nice if Shield Generators had a bit more variety. A simple tech line that allowed us to exchange Recharge Rate for Capacity and vice-versa. This would allow some variation and interesting design choices to shields, which are mostly linear at the time of writing. I'd call it, "Shield Tuning" and have it go from 10% to 50%. Increments are: 10, 15, 25, 30, 40, 45, 50.
- A shield with 300 Recharge and 300 Capacity, tuned 50% for Recharge would have 450 Recharge for 150 Capacity.
- A shield with 300 Recharge and 300 Capacity, tuned 50% for Capacity would have 150 Recharge for 450 Capacity.
--- Implementation would add a dropdown box to the Shield Generator project, allowing you to choose between one of three options.
- A Standard Shield, which applies no tuning.
- A High-Output Shield, which applies Recharge Tuning. So faster regeneration, but less shield points overall.
- A High-Capacity Shield, which applies Capacity Tuning. So slower regeneraton, but less Shield Points overall.
--- For obvious balance reasons, a ship may still only mount one model of shield generator, regardless of type. So, no mixing High-Capacity with High-Output and no mixing big generators with small ones. A ship can still mount more than one generator of the same model though, so you can mount as many 250 Ton (5HS) High-Capacity Generators as you want. :)
-
Really interesting idea. Once change I would suggest is that the "exchange" should not be even, for example we could get +25% shield strength for -50% recharge rate, or +25% recharge rate for -50% strength.
The reason is that both extremes are more useful than the base model if the exchange is even. +50% strength for example pushes a shield to be (even more) better than armor, which is really good even with very slow recharge. On the other hand, a fast recharge especially for higher tech levels makes it easier to 'heal' all damage taken between increments/rounds of fire, so there should be a steep strength penalty.
-
Sounds good to me... ships then should only be able to fit ONE type of shield just like engines. I think this would make shields even more interesting as a tool.
-
Really interesting idea. Once change I would suggest is that the "exchange" should not be even, for example we could get +25% shield strength for -50% recharge rate, or +25% recharge rate for -50% strength.
The reason is that both extremes are more useful than the base model if the exchange is even. +50% strength for example pushes a shield to be (even more) better than armor, which is really good even with very slow recharge. On the other hand, a fast recharge especially for higher tech levels makes it easier to 'heal' all damage taken between increments/rounds of fire, so there should be a steep strength penalty.
--- It's worth noting that the penalty is actually even steeper than I may have initially communicated.
- With a -50% Recharge and +50% Capacity, what would have been a 20 second recharge with a Standard Shield of 100 Capacity would be a 40 second recharge with 150 Capacity.
- Meanwhile, no such dichotomy exists for the Recharge tuned, since high damage weapons would become the de-facto way to beat those. At high tech levels of Particle Beam, Laser, Railgun (especially Railgun) and even short range, high damage "anti-beam brawler" missiles would shred those defenses, allowing DPS weapons to hit the hull.
- Incidentally, these would indirectly buff Meson Cannons, as a shield-ignoring weapon would become that much more useful~
-
- With a -50% Recharge and +50% Capacity, what would have been a 20 second recharge with a Standard Shield of 100 Capacity would be a 40 second recharge with 150 Capacity.
This is still not how shield recharge works. The -50% recharge/+50% capacity shield would take 60 seconds to recharge, because the recharge rate is defined in terms of shield points regenerated per 300 seconds, not in terms of percentage of shield regenerated.
-
- Incidentally, these would indirectly buff Meson Cannons, as a shield-ignoring weapon would become that much more useful~
I think you meant to say microwaves, unless I've missed/forgotten something mesons ignore armor, not shields.
As an aside what are everyones thoughts regarding the old absorption shields? My understanding was instead of the shield having a capacity it would instead reduce incoming damage by some %, effectively working in tandem with armour.
-
I believe you can do something similar to this already with generator size (many smaller generators having more regen but less total capacity), but I may be wrong.
- Incidentally, these would indirectly buff Meson Cannons, as a shield-ignoring weapon would become that much more useful~
I think you meant to say microwaves, unless I've missed/forgotten something mesons ignore armor, not shields.
As an aside what are everyones thoughts regarding the old absorption shields? My understanding was instead of the shield having a capacity it would instead reduce incoming damage by some %, effectively working in tandem with armour.
No, mesons ignore all shields and some percentage of armor.
It's been awhile since we had absorption shields but as I recall they started off absorbing all damage, but as they got closer to their maximum there was an increased chance of the damage getting through. And if an absorption shield generator was destroyed it released all the damage it was "holding".
-
- Incidentally, these would indirectly buff Meson Cannons, as a shield-ignoring weapon would become that much more useful~
I think you meant to say microwaves, unless I've missed/forgotten something mesons ignore armor, not shields.
Mesons now ignore shields, but only have an attenuation chance to pass through armor.
As an aside what are everyones thoughts regarding the old absorption shields? My understanding was instead of the shield having a capacity it would instead reduce incoming damage by some %, effectively working in tandem with armour.
It is about time the Invaders got their scary and unique features back.
-
As an aside what are everyones thoughts regarding the old absorption shields? My understanding was instead of the shield having a capacity it would instead reduce incoming damage by some %, effectively working in tandem with armour.
It is about time the Invaders got their scary and unique features back.
Just not the torpedoes. In fact I'd go so far to say nothing like the torpedoes should ever exist in Aurora without major gameplay changes. Having an infinite ammo weapon with missile range effectively obsoletes every weapon besides missiles because Aurora ranges mean its essentially impossible* to close to beam range under fire because there's time for the enemy to fire literally thousands of salvos before you can reach them.
*And even if we hypothesize rare situations where it is possible, it would be massively tedious.
-
- With a -50% Recharge and +50% Capacity, what would have been a 20 second recharge with a Standard Shield of 100 Capacity would be a 40 second recharge with 150 Capacity.
This is still not how shield recharge works. The -50% recharge/+50% capacity shield would take 60 seconds to recharge, because the recharge rate is defined in terms of shield points regenerated per 300 seconds, not in terms of percentage of shield regenerated.
--- No, you're still not understanding me. A -50% Recharge shield, regardless of how it worked under the hood, would only regenerate at HALF the rate of Standard shield. So mechanically, it would recharge in terms of shield points regenerated per 150 seconds. So a Standard Shield with 300 Shield Points would take 5 seconds to recharge, but a High-Capacity version of it would have 450 Shield Points and take 15 Seconds to fully recharge at -50%/+50% Shield Tuning Tech. Because it tanks the recharge rate of the shield... like I said. Oddly enough, my initial math was wrong as well, and it would seem it does not double, but rather TRIPLE the recharge time in practice.
--- So if we assume that, "recharge rate is defined in terms of shield points regenerated per 300 seconds" Then the High-Capacity Shields, would recharge at a rate of:
- 270 @-10%/+10% Shield Tuning
- 255 @-15%/+15% Shield Tuning
- 225 @-25%/+25% Shield Tuning
- 210 @-30%/+30% Shield Tuning
- 180 @-40%/+40% Shield Tuning
- 165 @-45%/+45% Shield Tuning
- 150 @-50%/+50% Shield Tuning
--- Do you understand what I am saying now? Or...
-
Oddly enough, my initial math was wrong as well, and it would seem it does not double, but rather TRIPLE the recharge time in practice.
That would explain it then.
-
Hooray! I did a communicate! ;D
-
Thinking maybe recharge rates should be much lower than 2x recharge time for increased capacity. Against box launchers/reduced rate launchers you'll still fully recharge most likely. Perhaps the recharge rate can follow the same progression as reduced rate launchers, up to 100x recharge time? And then a shield that doesn't recharge at all outside of hangars/maintenance facilities?
Box shields? :-)
-
Box shields could make sense, call them shield capacitors and they are a shield charged by the base/mothership before launch and which cannot be recharged at all . Could be interesting in making more durable fighters
-
Box shields? :-)
Armor, but better, when shields are already better than armor at a high enough tech level? Somehow I don't see this making its way into the game...
-
Box shields? :-)
Armor, but better, when shields are already better than armor at a high enough tech level? Somehow I don't see this making its way into the game...
It's even bettererer when you consider fighter suseptibility to shock damage (IIRC shield hits don't proc shock).
-
For some reason one use shields being functionally the same as armour had not occurred to me, yes they are a bad idea
-
Thinking maybe recharge rates should be much lower than 2x recharge time for increased capacity. Against box launchers/reduced rate launchers you'll still fully recharge most likely. Perhaps the recharge rate can follow the same progression as reduced rate launchers, up to 100x recharge time? And then a shield that doesn't recharge at all outside of hangars/maintenance facilities?
Box shields? :-)
---Well if you scroll up a bit, you'll find that upon double checking my work, the High-Capacity Shields would have a 3x recharge rate, not 2x.
-
--- It's worth noting that the penalty is actually even steeper than I may have initially communicated.
Another way to try and explain the same thing is to explore what happens when we approach the extreme ends (outside of your suggested values but following same formula).
For example a shield with 5% recharge but 195% capacity would be just as useless as a shield with 195% recharge but 5% capacity would (not to mention 0% recharge or 0% capacity shields :P )
The math your suggestion is based on works out in such a way that even if you could sacrifice all recharge you could ever only double the capacity (and vice verse).
-
Pretty cool idea, there's an example of that in the Last Angel series by ProximalFlame the Compact has all-around shields which are super tough but take a long time to come back up once taken down (though good luck taking them down at all) while their primary rivals have layered mini-shields that go down super easy but come back up near instantly, with most factions have sectional shields that are in between durability and recharge time.
-
I like the idea, however I feel like higher shield values will nearly always be preferable because of the volley/burst damage nature of the game. In my current game I have some large ships with some large shields and in most fights the regeneration isn't a big deal. I think it's 2 points per 5s increment. If that dropped to say 0.5 points but I get 25-50% more shields out of it, I'd be pushing over 1k in shielding value.. Just not sure how well this idea would balance out in the game especially as you move up in generator size and the bonuses it gives.
-
I like the idea, however I feel like higher shield values will nearly always be preferable because of the volley/burst damage nature of the game. In my current game I have some large ships with some large shields and in most fights the regeneration isn't a big deal. I think it's 2 points per 5s increment. If that dropped to say 0.5 points but I get 25-50% more shields out of it, I'd be pushing over 1k in shielding value.. Just not sure how well this idea would balance out in the game especially as you move up in generator size and the bonuses it gives.
It would be significant if Rapid Reloading ASMs were any good, they've definitely received some buffs but I think the reduced size launchers focused around the alpha strike still is way more potent where the regeneration wouldn't really come in to play. After all, the Alpha-StrikeTM is what a lot of modern missile doctrine is based around, courtesy of point defense.
The niche were regen shields could be preferable is if you get stuck in a gauss (maybe railgun?) knife fight or you're a particle beam/lance fleet going up against lasers at long range, so there is definitely some tactical space for regen over capacity.