Author Topic: v2.0.0 Changes Discussion Thread  (Read 125547 times)

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Offline Blogaugis

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #135 on: June 26, 2021, 06:32:17 AM »

I've changed this for v1.14. NPRs now suffer weapon failure and consume MSP to fix it.
YES! FINALLY!
We are even at loong last...

Does it apply to all NPRs? Or spoilers are excluded?
 

Offline Droll

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #136 on: June 26, 2021, 11:44:25 AM »
To be honest I don't think ECM should be a problem in and of itself as you just have to invest in ECM/ECCM on your own to lower it's impact.

The main issue I have with NPR beam combat is that they don't care about MSP and can fire indefinitely. The use of MSP is what makes a large low tech fleet have some possibility to survive an NPR beam fleet that have better range and speed.

I think that NPR should suffer the same problem with weapon failures as players so they will eventually not be able to fire anymore unless they go back to base. They don't need to follow normal maintenance rules just not have infinite ammunition.

I've changed this for v1.14. NPRs now suffer weapon failure and consume MSP to fix it.

What about when "no maintenance" is checked in game settings, they won't have failures then correct?

Also do NPRs properly construct maintenance facilities and ship MSP around to satisfy their new maintenance needs?
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #137 on: June 26, 2021, 12:41:37 PM »
Presumably the hope is that yes, they do.

I suppose this may turn out to not be the case.
 

Offline Demetrious

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #138 on: June 26, 2021, 01:07:36 PM »
The main issue I have with NPR beam combat is that they don't care about MSP and can fire indefinitely. The use of MSP is what makes a large low tech fleet have some possibility to survive an NPR beam fleet that have better range and speed.

In what possible scenario could any beam fleet run out of MSP due to random weapon failures before they have blown your entire fleet into scrap metal? The only situation in which I can see MSP consumption of beam weapons as being significant on the timescale of a deep-space ship-to-ship battle is with beam fighters, since given the tight tonnage constraints it might be tempting to skimp on MSP a little in order to maximize something else. Outside of that, MSP consumption from firing beam weapons just isn't a significant factor in ship to ship combat. The failure rate just isn't that high. And yet I see people talking about it all the time, which utterly baffles me. Are some people designing their ships with a higher ratio of engineering spaces to maint storage than I am? Or are others using, say, system defense FACs more often than I do? Or getting into running battles with missile-heavy NPRs that require hours worth of point-defense fire to defeat?

What am I missing here? I am perpetually confused on this point.  :(
 

Online nuclearslurpee

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #139 on: June 26, 2021, 01:24:26 PM »
In what possible scenario could any beam fleet run out of MSP due to random weapon failures before they have blown your entire fleet into scrap metal?

This is literally a major plot point in my AAR, due to what turned out to be insufficient maintenance supplies for particle beam-armed ships engaged in sniper duels.

It is probably also more common in multi-player-race campaigns, as against NPRs the tactics are usually very simple and players usually outtech NPRs quite badly, but with multiple player races the tactics and tech are much more competitive.

Quote
Are some people designing their ships with a higher ratio of engineering spaces to maint storage than I am? Or are others using, say, system defense FACs more often than I do? Or getting into running battles with missile-heavy NPRs that require hours worth of point-defense fire to defeat?

A lot of players, including the Man himself, prefer to put only Engineering Spaces on most ships as these reduce the failure rate and thus MSP consumption rather than just providing more MSPs. Maintenance Bays are really only needed for replenishment ships, or to provide extra MSP to repair weapons. However if you choose to rely on Maint Bays instead of Engineering Spaces this is less of a problem since you have more MSP onboard (but a higher failure rate).

Personally for beam ships I will usually put enough Engineering Spaces to get the maintenance/failure values I want, then add MSPs until I feel like I have enough to keep my weapons operational in a long engagement.

Note that point defense fire does not incur a risk of breakdown, for balance reasons I assume.
 
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Offline Demetrious

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #140 on: June 26, 2021, 02:16:53 PM »
A lot of players, including the Man himself, prefer to put only Engineering Spaces on most ships as these reduce the failure rate and thus MSP consumption rather than just providing more MSPs. Maintenance Bays are really only needed for replenishment ships, or to provide extra MSP to repair weapons. However if you choose to rely on Maint Bays instead of Engineering Spaces this is less of a problem since you have more MSP onboard (but a higher failure rate).

Ah, this makes sense. I usually equip my ships with thermal-reduced engines - which, I'm finding, not only increases the resource cost but also the ongoing maint cost considerably. So with most of my beam warships I find that a mix of engineering spaces and maint storage is needed to provide the optimal ratio of deployment time + low IFR per ton invested. That, and I tend to go for 3 years deployment time and 2 years maint life, so even my particle beam kiting ships tend to do fine for at least a few long engagements.
 

Offline ISN

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #141 on: June 26, 2021, 02:18:26 PM »
The main issue I have with NPR beam combat is that they don't care about MSP and can fire indefinitely. The use of MSP is what makes a large low tech fleet have some possibility to survive an NPR beam fleet that have better range and speed.

In what possible scenario could any beam fleet run out of MSP due to random weapon failures before they have blown your entire fleet into scrap metal? The only situation in which I can see MSP consumption of beam weapons as being significant on the timescale of a deep-space ship-to-ship battle is with beam fighters, since given the tight tonnage constraints it might be tempting to skimp on MSP a little in order to maximize something else. Outside of that, MSP consumption from firing beam weapons just isn't a significant factor in ship to ship combat. The failure rate just isn't that high. And yet I see people talking about it all the time, which utterly baffles me. Are some people designing their ships with a higher ratio of engineering spaces to maint storage than I am? Or are others using, say, system defense FACs more often than I do? Or getting into running battles with missile-heavy NPRs that require hours worth of point-defense fire to defeat?

What am I missing here? I am perpetually confused on this point.  :(

I typically use a mix of engineering spaces and maintenance bays, but I have still on occasion run perilously low on maintenance supplies in battle. It's just a matter of different players balancing their maintenance storage differently I guess. But I think the biggest effect this change will have -- which I'm very much looking forwards to! -- is to prevent NPRs from spending hours slowly bombarding planets into submission, one... shot... at... a... time...
 

Offline Borealis4x

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #142 on: June 26, 2021, 02:22:23 PM »
I try to have double the MSP of my max repair at least. I'll try to reach that point with just engineering spaces but after a certain point you get drastically diminished returns on IFR and using maintenance storage makes more sense.
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #143 on: June 26, 2021, 02:49:30 PM »
For regular maintenance failures I think pure engineering spaces makes a lot of sense since the spaces themselves greatly reduce the need for MSP.

For combat failures, I do think storage would generally make a lot of sense since its a lighter weight source of a bunch of supply points to pour into the beams that will keep failing regardless of the amount of engineering spaces you have.
 

Offline DFNewb

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #144 on: June 27, 2021, 12:56:03 PM »
I just want to say I am 100 percent pro raider I would love to see them in the game, there isn't much that actually attacks you at the moment. I played campaigns with the whole plan of defending Sol from IG invaders in the past and while it's fun it can be kinda annoying cause they are really strong. Having these precursor style single ships attacking you around your systems sounds like a great improvement over the IG invaders which kinda seem to first send 1 scout, then 3 warships that each have the strength of my entire navy hahaha maybe I should stop the pre-TN starts.
 
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Offline Neophyte

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #145 on: July 02, 2021, 11:16:44 AM »
Same - I like the idea of requiring dispersed forces to protect colonies and convoys on the frontier from dangerous, but not empire-ending, attacks and raids.  It also gives the unrest generated by "insufficient military forces" in a system a logical reason to exist beyond civvie paranoia.

Hopefully sometime in the future we might be able to automate some of the protection tasks like (manually or even automatically) marking a ship design as a convoy escort, and have the civilian lines use a convoy system that attaches the escorts to massed freighter or colony ship runs!
 
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Offline Barkhorn

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #146 on: July 09, 2021, 12:59:58 AM »
The main issue I have with NPR beam combat is that they don't care about MSP and can fire indefinitely. The use of MSP is what makes a large low tech fleet have some possibility to survive an NPR beam fleet that have better range and speed.

In what possible scenario could any beam fleet run out of MSP due to random weapon failures before they have blown your entire fleet into scrap metal?
...
What am I missing here? I am perpetually confused on this point.  :(
Imagine getting into a pure beam fight against someone you barely outrange and outrun.  With maintenance turned off, this is a guaranteed win so long as you're careful about maintaining the correct range.  But with weapon failures on, your opponent can likely weather the storm long enough that you run out of MSP.  So if you try to plink him to death, you run out of MSP, he goes back to the shipyard and buffs out the scratches, and it's like the fight never happened.  Or you can get closer to do real damage, but also risk taking return fire.
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #147 on: July 09, 2021, 04:07:47 PM »
I still think hard range limits on beams were a mistake.  I think that is a big contributor to the speed+range = automatic win issue.  This was also a thing in the dreadnought era, where they realized that being faster and longer ranged was basically all they needed, assuming they could get their crews and admirals to actually correctly prosecute that (ie the old 'speed is our armor' saying with the royal navy, followed of course by their retard admirals closing the distance anyways at jutland and taking a bunch of casualties).
 

Online nuclearslurpee

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #148 on: July 09, 2021, 05:21:26 PM »
I still think hard range limits on beams were a mistake.  I think that is a big contributor to the speed+range = automatic win issue.  This was also a thing in the dreadnought era, where they realized that being faster and longer ranged was basically all they needed, assuming they could get their crews and admirals to actually correctly prosecute that (ie the old 'speed is our armor' saying with the royal navy, followed of course by their retard admirals closing the distance anyways at jutland and taking a bunch of casualties).

Conceptually I would agree, but in gameplay terms I have difficulty thinking of how else beam weapons would be differentiated without range limits, unless the "soft" range limits were harsh enough that they were not much different from hard limits. Same goes for fire control tech levels if we're honest.
 

Online Andrew

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Re: v1.14.0 Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #149 on: July 09, 2021, 05:32:54 PM »
I still think hard range limits on beams were a mistake.  I think that is a big contributor to the speed+range = automatic win issue.  This was also a thing in the dreadnought era, where they realized that being faster and longer ranged was basically all they needed, assuming they could get their crews and admirals to actually correctly prosecute that (ie the old 'speed is our armor' saying with the royal navy, followed of course by their retard admirals closing the distance anyways at jutland and taking a bunch of casualties).
Read some details of Jutland some time.
Beatty probably was moderatly incompetent but no one made the mistakes you suggest. His mistaked were awful signalling which is bad in a scouting force and enouraging bad ammo handling as well as poor gunnery training. British BC force had the worst accuracy, the Battle line and 5th Battle Squadron had better accuracy than the Germans.
Summary 2 BC with the Battlecruiser fleet were lost largely due to poor ammo  handling procedures, the Germans had made the same mistakes but blind luck at Dogger Bank ennabled one of their ships to survice a hit which revealed the issue. Invincible may have had the same problem or may just have sufferred from being the 1st BC built and having weak armour. The Germans were really , really lucky had british AP shells been functioning as designed they would have lost at least 3 possibly up to 5 more Battleships and Battlecruisers and sufferred both a strategic and tactical defeat instead of a tactical victory and strategic defeat. The day after Jutland the Grand Fleet had a larger Margin of superiority in operational capital ships than on the day and notably the German commanders were well aware they had escaped being crushed by the skin of their teeth and never dared seek a battle again. Until 1918 when the fleet (snsibly)mutinied rather than die for the honour of the flag
 
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