Author Topic: C# Full Installation v1.00 (updated to 1.13.0)  (Read 267093 times)

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Offline plek

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Re: C# Full Installation v1.00 (updated to 1.5.1)
« Reply #120 on: April 17, 2020, 04:48:28 PM »
Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=10635. msg124635#msg124635 date=1587146742
Quote from: froggiest1982 link=topic=10635. msg124381#msg124381 date=1587113459
You could always do what SI does with football manager mate.  Leave the graphics as packs and leave them to the users to create.  They can upload and then the people can just install if they want.  I mean look at the ribbon app, the new graphics, I also remember the nice planet pack of VB6 for instance.  You can leave the blank icons (like they do with the players) so we know what to put where and it's done: No more BS.  I understand copyright but it just doesn't make sense for what you do.  I mean the poor fella is here harassing for a picture when with all due the respect I bet he just cannot figure out why he cannot produce a decent game like yours with 10 times the people and resources.

I checked and that is exactly what SI does.  What is the benefit of having separate packs? If I simply take the images files out of the game download and make them a separate available download, does that remove any issue with copyright because they are not directly part of the game?

No, because the license that the images files use lets you do whatever you want with them and is explicit about what you have to do to be compliant with regards to copyright.  Your disney et al images are. . .  who knows.  Probably not legal to use but it depends on who the original author is.  Putting art in a game is not, in fact, fair use.  Putting them in a separate pack doesn't actually change anything, because you'd still be breaching 'normal' copyright. 

However, and this is important, the prior examples given ARE NOT RESTRICTED IN THE SAME WAY.  You can do whatever you want with those ES files because they EXPLICITLY give anyone permission to use them, forever.  That license can not be changed retroactively.  There are only two conditions that MIGHT apply to you; attribution and making available your changes. 

The first is easy, stick a readme in the download, list the files and attribute the author or collective group that produced it.  That's it. 

The second can seem complicated, but it is not.  There's just a serious lack of literacy going around.  You need to make available, by whatever means are convenient, the files that you produce FROM the original image file, except for changes to format or to comply with other copyright requirements - like if you had to encrypt all of your images as a requirement to use one of the other images. 

What this means is that if you modify the image itself, like changing colors, adding or modifying the image beyond resizing it, you need to have some way for anyone to request that NEW file.  That can be my email, download on your site, including it in the download, or even just mailing them a CD. 

If you used the image, and created a wholly new image - like a button, it needs to be shareable.  If your engine takes the image and just loads it on top of an in-game button? You haven't changed or made a derivative work with the image so you don't have to share anything.  Just give credit. 

The specific license also means that if you DID make a derivative of the image, it too is licensed under the same form of copyright.  Making available would be your only requirement. 

tldr; Aurora is NOT a derivative work just because it includes or even modifies the files Steve used.  Stop spreading FUD and read the licensing, free and open software already has enough problems without everyone being afraid of working with permissive licensing. 
 

Offline plek

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Re: C# Full Installation v1.00 (updated to 1.5.1)
« Reply #121 on: April 17, 2020, 04:56:06 PM »
Quote from: MCOfficer link=topic=10635. msg124631#msg124631 date=1587146477

Mate.   .   .    you'd be surprised how similar ES and Aurora are.    Both are made by people who make tremendous efforts just to bring joy to their players.    That excludes me, btw, if you had bothered to look it up you would've noticed that I'm but a small contributor.    I have immense respect for such people, that's why it really bothers me when their work is "stolen".    Imagine if someone distributed parts of Aurora under their name without attribution, I'm sure you'd feel just a little bit offended.   

And calling this harassment or toxic is a pretty heavy-handed.    I gave Steve the benefit of the doubt and made a polite request, and was proven right when he reacted in exactly the right way.     Go figure.   


An Aurora player noticed and mentioned it on our discord, and I decided to take a look.    Not gonna call out names because apparently there are people who think of this as toxicity.   


Edited for clarity. 

They call this harassment because it is.  You made baseless claims against Steve with either an ignorant or disingenuous attempt at quoting a licensing scheme.  Either hoping he'd feel shamed or scared into releasing code for fear of reprisal or forcing him to change his game and pull out perfectly legal content.  Again, I need to be clear to everyone looking to wave a claim of infringement or even just willing to entertain the idea that the claim is valid - READ THE LICENSE.  Creative Commons provides concise, easy-for-the-layman terms that are only a google away. 
 
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Offline Agm-114

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Re: C# Full Installation v1.00 (updated to 1.5.1)
« Reply #122 on: April 17, 2020, 04:56:45 PM »
Imo the legality doesn't matter much. They want their pictures out, or attributed. They should be taken out or attributed.
 

Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: C# Full Installation v1.00 (updated to 1.5.1)
« Reply #123 on: April 17, 2020, 05:05:58 PM »
Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=10635. msg124635#msg124635 date=1587146742
Quote from: froggiest1982 link=topic=10635. msg124381#msg124381 date=1587113459
You could always do what SI does with football manager mate.  Leave the graphics as packs and leave them to the users to create.  They can upload and then the people can just install if they want.  I mean look at the ribbon app, the new graphics, I also remember the nice planet pack of VB6 for instance.  You can leave the blank icons (like they do with the players) so we know what to put where and it's done: No more BS.  I understand copyright but it just doesn't make sense for what you do.  I mean the poor fella is here harassing for a picture when with all due the respect I bet he just cannot figure out why he cannot produce a decent game like yours with 10 times the people and resources.

I checked and that is exactly what SI does.  What is the benefit of having separate packs? If I simply take the images files out of the game download and make them a separate available download, does that remove any issue with copyright because they are not directly part of the game?

No, because the license that the images files use lets you do whatever you want with them and is explicit about what you have to do to be compliant with regards to copyright.  Your disney et al images are. . .  who knows.  Probably not legal to use but it depends on who the original author is.  Putting art in a game is not, in fact, fair use.  Putting them in a separate pack doesn't actually change anything, because you'd still be breaching 'normal' copyright. 

That is true ONLY is is Steve that releases the packs if is a community pack then the single creator of the pack could get some copyright issues true. The problem is Disney or any other entity will never chase the single person as: a- it's a wate of money and time and b- all the activities (including aurora) are no profit so again there is no money here. You will get a slap on your wrist and a notice to remove the contents (recently happened to FMSCOUTS, but guess what? same contents now are available on other sites.

Back to you Steve: if you make Aurora graphic modding friendly (no mod beware) like I said, so for example leaving the pictures as blank portraits so that any person can replace that file with Uma Thurman for instance you are 100% out of the woods. Same as it happened with the ribbons. A user made a program to create some new, you off the hook. They could make same for the flags so you have no issues with Star Trek or Disney in using their flags. As long as they install it properly nothing changes and they will not break the game or cause any unexpected bug.

Lastly: I AM SORRY if I have used a strong word as my intention was to highlight how extreme the situation is considering here there is just a community trying to support and enjoy Steve's hobby. I am a big fan of ES and probably one of the most disappointed person of what happened with ES2. I, in fact, still own the original release and play it sometimes.

Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: C# Full Installation v1.00 (updated to 1.5.1)
« Reply #124 on: April 17, 2020, 05:11:08 PM »
Also please to everybody do not follow on my path as I dont want to trash this thread. I have lightly made a stupid comment and it was fair to highlight an issue by one of the contributor. I think it is a good opportunity for Steve to sort eventual future issues if Aurora scales up in popularity. We are an amazing community and graphics packs are already there for us to use. My FM library is 6GB and makes me enjoy the game even more: SI is still there and all creators are still there and growing.

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: C# Full Installation v1.00 (updated to 1.5.1)
« Reply #125 on: April 17, 2020, 05:22:11 PM »
The first is easy, stick a readme in the download, list the files and attribute the author or collective group that produced it.  That's it. 

I would really like to do this - the problem I don't know the origin of many of the files. A large proportion of the race images were provided by a player for example. All the others were simply the result of an image search. I didn't download them from a specific website. I would guess the national flags and the medals are fine, although there are some flag files that are image searched. I've added a comment to the download and the readme stating that if anyone wants removal or attribution, please let me know.

Using player-provided images is very easy BTW. If you put them in the various image sub-directories, the game will find them automatically. That is already coded. Maybe it is time to start a new sub-forum for players to provide image files.

EDIT: Looks like someone beat me to it :)

I am going to remove all the race files where I don't know the origin. I am going to leave the star wars, star trek, etc because they have been on the game for 15 years without Disney, etc. raising a concern. Players can then use the images provided by other players to boost the total.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 05:24:49 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline plek

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Re: C# Full Installation v1.00 (updated to 1.5.1)
« Reply #126 on: April 17, 2020, 05:31:18 PM »
Yeah I get you, there's always a lot of uncertainty in projects that utilize material from sources that are either unknown or are themselves already relying on other material.   Better safe than sorry, but please don't get spooked by copyright concerns - as others have said, no one who matters is going to pester you over an the assets you've been using in a way that might jeopardize your work. 

edit: Recent drama may have given me the impression that the image pack idea would fall on the 'Steve says no' side of things, but if it's already supported. . .  then yeah, that's awesome.  Otherwise you're doing things fine - if the author is unknown, there's no downside to your approach.  You've shown due diligence.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 05:38:00 PM by plek »
 
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Offline Inglonias

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Re: C# Full Installation v1.00 (updated to 1.5.1)
« Reply #127 on: April 17, 2020, 05:36:13 PM »
The Discord actually put together a project to determine who made what. There's a spreadsheet that has many of the images sourced and attributed already:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nu8FngPgrNMnBd4GoogaVC9AZhf_dmx_ql9wMKe5anY/edit#gid=0
 
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Offline Agm-114

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Re: C# Full Installation v1.00 (updated to 1.5.1)
« Reply #128 on: April 17, 2020, 06:39:35 PM »
Yeah we got through bout 20% of the images between the 3 of us.
There's so many lmao.
 

Offline MCOfficer

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Re: C# Full Installation v1.00 (updated to 1.5.1)
« Reply #129 on: April 18, 2020, 04:39:51 AM »
Quote from: plek link=topic=10635.  msg124800#msg124800 date=1587160566
Quote from: MCOfficer link=topic=10635.   msg124631#msg124631 date=1587146477

Mate.     .     .      you'd be surprised how similar ES and Aurora are.      Both are made by people who make tremendous efforts just to bring joy to their players.      That excludes me, btw, if you had bothered to look it up you would've noticed that I'm but a small contributor.      I have immense respect for such people, that's why it really bothers me when their work is "stolen".      Imagine if someone distributed parts of Aurora under their name without attribution, I'm sure you'd feel just a little bit offended.     

And calling this harassment or toxic is a pretty heavy-handed.      I gave Steve the benefit of the doubt and made a polite request, and was proven right when he reacted in exactly the right way.       Go figure.     


An Aurora player noticed and mentioned it on our discord, and I decided to take a look.      Not gonna call out names because apparently there are people who think of this as toxicity.     


Edited for clarity.   

They call this harassment because it is.    You made baseless claims against Steve with either an ignorant or disingenuous attempt at quoting a licensing scheme.    Either hoping he'd feel shamed or scared into releasing code for fear of reprisal or forcing him to change his game and pull out perfectly legal content.    Again, I need to be clear to everyone looking to wave a claim of infringement or even just willing to entertain the idea that the claim is valid - READ THE LICENSE.    Creative Commons provides concise, easy-for-the-layman terms that are only a google away.   

If you really want tor read it that way, i guess there's nothing I can do to convince you otherwise.   I made my point, and thankfully the one person whose judgement matters did not make any gross misinterpretations.   Since this discussion would only serve to further derail the thread, I'll now show myself out, Have a good one, and Steve: Keep up the good work. 



Edit (2020/05/25) - not a new post because i don't want to warm this up again.

Sigh. . .  since i just received a couple more misinformed remarks, let me set y'all straight.
  • I had never heard of Aurora until the day someone told me there was a copyright infringement.  Thus, I wasn't aware of the modding/open source controversy that had been going on.
  • Having read up on it, i get why suggesting that "Aurora C# is published as either CC-BY-SA-4. 0 or a compatible license" was a. . .  controversial statement, given the timing.  It was also wrong, for which i apologize.  I misread the license terms, and i hindsight i should never have suggested that option, since the other 2 options were so much simpler.
  • The source code is worthless for ES development.  It's in C#, ES is in C++.  They are completely different games.  (Yes, there are apparently people who believe this.  I don't get it either. )
  • I never wanted to achieve anything other than proper licensing. I have nothing to gain from an infringement claim or whatever people were suspecting - the images in question aren't even mine.

The fact that i have to highlight this shows how much i've failed to bring my point across.  I'm sorry for the controversy, and again, thank you Steve for reacting correctly (though, let's face it - incorrect distribution on your part is what got us here in the first place).
If anyone really want to discuss this further, please contact me on Discord (M*C*O#9635). 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 10:18:27 AM by MCOfficer »
 
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Offline Neophyte

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Re: C# Full Installation v1.00 (updated to 1.5.1)
« Reply #130 on: April 21, 2020, 06:35:30 AM »
Minor question, the first post has the link to the full 151 .rar file listed as "(125Mb) but when I download it's 120MB in my browser (and more specifically 122,884KB in my file folder).  May I assume this is the correct file size (as of this time) and the 125MB is from an earlier edit of the OP?
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: C# Full Installation v1.00 (updated to 1.5.1)
« Reply #131 on: April 21, 2020, 06:06:42 PM »
Minor question, the first post has the link to the full 151 .rar file listed as "(125Mb) but when I download it's 120MB in my browser (and more specifically 122,884KB in my file folder).  May I assume this is the correct file size (as of this time) and the 125MB is from an earlier edit of the OP?

I'm not sure. . . best bet is probably to direct message Alucard and ask.
 
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Offline Bughunter

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Re: C# Full Installation v1.00 (updated to 1.5.1)
« Reply #132 on: April 22, 2020, 04:20:31 AM »
That is probably just the pictures Steve took out which the 1.0 release had, so everything should be fine.
 
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Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: C# Full Installation v1.00 (updated to 1.5.1)
« Reply #133 on: April 24, 2020, 09:55:39 PM »
Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=10635. msg124635#msg124635 date=1587146742
Quote from: froggiest1982 link=topic=10635. msg124381#msg124381 date=1587113459
You could always do what SI does with football manager mate.  Leave the graphics as packs and leave them to the users to create.  They can upload and then the people can just install if they want.  I mean look at the ribbon app, the new graphics, I also remember the nice planet pack of VB6 for instance.  You can leave the blank icons (like they do with the players) so we know what to put where and it's done: No more BS.  I understand copyright but it just doesn't make sense for what you do.  I mean the poor fella is here harassing for a picture when with all due the respect I bet he just cannot figure out why he cannot produce a decent game like yours with 10 times the people and resources.

I checked and that is exactly what SI does.  What is the benefit of having separate packs? If I simply take the images files out of the game download and make them a separate available download, does that remove any issue with copyright because they are not directly part of the game?

No, because the license that the images files use lets you do whatever you want with them and is explicit about what you have to do to be compliant with regards to copyright.  Your disney et al images are. . .  who knows.  Probably not legal to use but it depends on who the original author is.  Putting art in a game is not, in fact, fair use.  Putting them in a separate pack doesn't actually change anything, because you'd still be breaching 'normal' copyright. 

That is true ONLY is is Steve that releases the packs if is a community pack then the single creator of the pack could get some copyright issues true. The problem is Disney or any other entity will never chase the single person as: a- it's a wate of money and time and b- all the activities (including aurora) are no profit so again there is no money here. You will get a slap on your wrist and a notice to remove the contents (recently happened to FMSCOUTS, but guess what? same contents now are available on other sites.

Back to you Steve: if you make Aurora graphic modding friendly (no mod beware) like I said, so for example leaving the pictures as blank portraits so that any person can replace that file with Uma Thurman for instance you are 100% out of the woods. Same as it happened with the ribbons. A user made a program to create some new, you off the hook. They could make same for the flags so you have no issues with Star Trek or Disney in using their flags. As long as they install it properly nothing changes and they will not break the game or cause any unexpected bug.

Lastly: I AM SORRY if I have used a strong word as my intention was to highlight how extreme the situation is considering here there is just a community trying to support and enjoy Steve's hobby. I am a big fan of ES and probably one of the most disappointed person of what happened with ES2. I, in fact, still own the original release and play it sometimes.

Really sorry to revive this again but as somebody mentioned in a post something regarding the #### references and flags or such I think Steve you should consider removing these too. Just to avoid stupid issues in the future. Apparently Paradox did the same for HOI with Hitler portrait and Flag obscured. There is a mod to bring them back of course, but again that falls under the personal choice/preferences and you cannot be held responsible for these of course.

Just a suggestion, personally I don't care/mind them but there could be misunderstandings there.

here there are further notes regarding the issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_legality_of_####_flags

The files are flag0143, flag0151, flag0152
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 10:01:26 PM by froggiest1982 »
 
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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: C# Full Installation v1.00 (updated to 1.5.1)
« Reply #134 on: April 25, 2020, 08:49:29 AM »
Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=10635. msg124635#msg124635 date=1587146742
Quote from: froggiest1982 link=topic=10635. msg124381#msg124381 date=1587113459
You could always do what SI does with football manager mate.  Leave the graphics as packs and leave them to the users to create.  They can upload and then the people can just install if they want.  I mean look at the ribbon app, the new graphics, I also remember the nice planet pack of VB6 for instance.  You can leave the blank icons (like they do with the players) so we know what to put where and it's done: No more BS.  I understand copyright but it just doesn't make sense for what you do.  I mean the poor fella is here harassing for a picture when with all due the respect I bet he just cannot figure out why he cannot produce a decent game like yours with 10 times the people and resources.

I checked and that is exactly what SI does.  What is the benefit of having separate packs? If I simply take the images files out of the game download and make them a separate available download, does that remove any issue with copyright because they are not directly part of the game?

No, because the license that the images files use lets you do whatever you want with them and is explicit about what you have to do to be compliant with regards to copyright.  Your disney et al images are. . .  who knows.  Probably not legal to use but it depends on who the original author is.  Putting art in a game is not, in fact, fair use.  Putting them in a separate pack doesn't actually change anything, because you'd still be breaching 'normal' copyright. 

That is true ONLY is is Steve that releases the packs if is a community pack then the single creator of the pack could get some copyright issues true. The problem is Disney or any other entity will never chase the single person as: a- it's a wate of money and time and b- all the activities (including aurora) are no profit so again there is no money here. You will get a slap on your wrist and a notice to remove the contents (recently happened to FMSCOUTS, but guess what? same contents now are available on other sites.

Back to you Steve: if you make Aurora graphic modding friendly (no mod beware) like I said, so for example leaving the pictures as blank portraits so that any person can replace that file with Uma Thurman for instance you are 100% out of the woods. Same as it happened with the ribbons. A user made a program to create some new, you off the hook. They could make same for the flags so you have no issues with Star Trek or Disney in using their flags. As long as they install it properly nothing changes and they will not break the game or cause any unexpected bug.

Lastly: I AM SORRY if I have used a strong word as my intention was to highlight how extreme the situation is considering here there is just a community trying to support and enjoy Steve's hobby. I am a big fan of ES and probably one of the most disappointed person of what happened with ES2. I, in fact, still own the original release and play it sometimes.

Really sorry to revive this again but as somebody mentioned in a post something regarding the #### references and flags or such I think Steve you should consider removing these too. Just to avoid stupid issues in the future. Apparently Paradox did the same for HOI with Hitler portrait and Flag obscured. There is a mod to bring them back of course, but again that falls under the personal choice/preferences and you cannot be held responsible for these of course.

Just a suggestion, personally I don't care/mind them but there could be misunderstandings there.

here there are further notes regarding the issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_legality_of_####_flags

The files are flag0143, flag0151, flag0152

I've deleted them from my own copy of the 151 full install, so they will be gone next time I upload a full install.